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Papa Midnight

Should tournament results decide the direction of L5R?

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Card Design is better left in designer's hands. Choosing stuff like names and non-mechanical effects is ok. Don't waste time of your card designers by ordering them to make 10 mutually exclusive cards from which only one will see daylight. That's waste of cash, of creative potential, and of time. 

As far as story go, less "crazy ride in Rokugan anything totally can happen", more "pick between two conditiions that probably should be contained to current storyline", so you are not wasting time creating 5 theoretical storylines where only 1 can happen, and instead you write a story miodule where choices determine outcomes. These outcomes can totally be refferenced and built upon in future modules, but having clear structure and direction is needed.

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As an outsider of the game who only ever played the RPG (and still prefers 1st Edition over the subsequent ones), who wanted to dabble in the card game but it was far too old at that point and CCGs in general are too much of a randomized expensive money sink, this game is awesome news to me. I always prefer getting into something on the ground floor and have come to trust FFG because of their other LCGs.

 

I do think that part of the interesting appeal of the game was how tournaments would shape the story, though that was tempered by how many repetitive apocalypses amd strange (not in a good way) turns were caused by the function, making the story weaker by comparison.

 

I think a good middle ground should be aimed for, something along the lines of the writing team creating a set of possible outcomes for tournament winners/participants to choose from. If only the high end regional or larger tournaments do this, it will disenfranchise and disincentivize part of the appeal of being part of the community at the local organized level.

 

Perhaps the wider, numerous tournaments being held could either whittle down the options, or say, provide 1 vote per, while top tier tournament votes count for more?

 

Either way, I don't want the strength of the story to be undermined by providing players too much control, as stated above in this thread, because you end up with bizarre results.

Edited by seventhbeacon

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Card Design is better left in designer's hands. Choosing stuff like names and non-mechanical effects is ok. Don't waste time of your card designers by ordering them to make 10 mutually exclusive cards from which only one will see daylight. That's waste of cash, of creative potential, and of time. 

As far as story go, less "crazy ride in Rokugan anything totally can happen", more "pick between two conditiions that probably should be contained to current storyline", so you are not wasting time creating 5 theoretical storylines where only 1 can happen, and instead you write a story miodule where choices determine outcomes. These outcomes can totally be refferenced and built upon in future modules, but having clear structure and direction is needed.

 

The new story should be based on the way Onyx was heading: multiple choices for each clan to determine where it goes. The Mantis clan's potential paths alone was very interesting to read.

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The new story should be based on the way Onyx was heading: multiple choices for each clan to determine where it goes. The Mantis clan's potential paths alone was very interesting to read.

 

 

IMO, the problem with this is that each clan choosing independently of each other clan means the choices are being made in isolation, rather than by a storyteller who's deciding what the best choices are to promote conflict and drama. I don't want the overall fabric of the setting to be weakened by all the clans pulling in different directions.

 

This is can also be a problem with choosing it at the tournament level, of course, but that's why I would push for more targeted player influence vs. big picture influence. More targeted choices also helps to separate out impacts on the RPG, LCG, and whatever other Gs FFG comes up with, which helps minimize card gamers complaining about RPG influence and RPGers complaining about card game influence.

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Being very honest, I hope FFG give us a setting, no a Story. Having a big story arc each year (or less time then that) was a bit tiresome. I do believe the netrunner model (the one I'm more familiar with), where most cycles kind of have a story, but they are not a big conflict that will change the entire world and more of a tool to show some aspect of the setting.
In this case, I believe something like "The Clan who wins more store championships/regional championships/national championships/etc. this year will have an Imperial Legion Commander in a future pack."

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The new story should be based on the way Onyx was heading: multiple choices for each clan to determine where it goes. The Mantis clan's potential paths alone was very interesting to read.

 

 

IMO, the problem with this is that each clan choosing independently of each other clan means the choices are being made in isolation, rather than by a storyteller who's deciding what the best choices are to promote conflict and drama. I don't want the overall fabric of the setting to be weakened by all the clans pulling in different directions.

 

This is can also be a problem with choosing it at the tournament level, of course, but that's why I would push for more targeted player influence vs. big picture influence. More targeted choices also helps to separate out impacts on the RPG, LCG, and whatever other Gs FFG comes up with, which helps minimize card gamers complaining about RPG influence and RPGers complaining about card game influence.

 

 

I think you could do both if you can get the right writers and really focus on specifics of the clans. The idea of icons from Onyx edition sounds like the right sort of idea to push the larger narrative through a focused set of personalities, items, and locations. Not to much of an issue with the RPGers for quite some time too. By then, FFG could fix any issues during the initial story decisions and tournament results.

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Absolutely. People who don't like this element have plenty of other CCGs to choose from.

 

Yeah, and they did. Which is part of why L5R is at the pass that it is, I'll wager.

All I'm saying is that players like you who like their game and its story to be distinct entities from each other have the entire industry's library of games to pick from. Why can't players like me have just one game where the game itself has story impact?

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 The idea of icons from Onyx edition sounds like the right sort of idea to push the larger narrative through a focused set of personalities, items, and locations. 

 

Do you have a link or something that explains the idea of icons as it relates to L5r and Onyx? A quick brief is fine, it's just not a term I've seen thrown around before now in discussing this. I can take some guesses, but better not to. :)

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All I'm saying is that players like you who like their game and its story to be distinct entities from each other have the entire industry's library of games to pick from. Why can't players like me have just one game where the game itself has story impact?

 

 

Just for clarity, having them completely distinct isn't quite what I want. If FFG wants to publish fiction, even fiction based on some limited interactive story stuff from the game, I don't care whether that happens. If some of the flavor text for the game, or whatever, is drawn from that fiction? Cool, go crazy. Doesn't impact the game at all. I'm genuinely indifferent to the surrounding story, except to the extent that I would like to see the game preserve some version of its setting and its themes, and story has to be part of that if it exists (like, a time travel story with the heroes of Rokugan 2000 coming back to present day Rokugan would be...well, maybe kind of awesome. But pretty wrong for L5R. :) )

 

But interactive story isn't the same as interactive game design, and I don't want to see story choices impact the game either a) in a card and meta design sense, or b) by warping the play environment through restrictions on which clans have which choices. In other words, if the tournament is to decide the new jade champion, and the winner gets 1 vote, he should be able to play any clan and vote for any clan, not be locked into playing a specific clan to get the champion in that clan.

 

Outside of that, as said above, if FFG wants to do fiction that's influenced by the game? Go crazy. I don't have to read it. Likewise, I don't have to buy a novel based on those results. I can just ignore them and play the game, which is what I bought to begin with.

 

All my preferences of course, but I wanted to be clear.

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 I could see someone making a card (or helping to design) one as per the usual FFG prize that most of the other LCGs have.

 

I'm sure we'll see this. Probably also stuff like The Chronos Protocol:

 

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2013/12/19/who-will-control-the-chronos-protocol/

 

Although a quick skim shows they haven't done anything like this for Netrunner for a while.

 

Did I overlook a more recent event of similar scope, Netrunner players? 

 

 

Let's just say, that the initial response to the Plugged In Tour, the Chronos Protocol predecessor, was...

 

Not Good

 

Part of it was that they weren't ready to announce the Chronos Protocol yet. And it was pretty bitter there for quite some time. But, Netrunner continues to grow. I still laugh at the one deckbuilder that took themselves offline over it, though. 

 

But, the experience really soured FFG on the idea. I think it wouldn't have been as bad, if they hadn't insisted on sending designers out on the Plugged In Tour, which really limited it. And their international partners, from everything I've seen, are not nearly as on the ball as FFG is when it comes to running tournaments (which by the way, their OP program is still going through a lot of growing pains). 

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 The idea of icons from Onyx edition sounds like the right sort of idea to push the larger narrative through a focused set of personalities, items, and locations. 

 

Do you have a link or something that explains the idea of icons as it relates to L5r and Onyx? A quick brief is fine, it's just not a term I've seen thrown around before now in discussing this. I can take some guesses, but better not to. :)

 

 

This was the generalized statement AEG made about icons. Of course, we don't know how AEG would have ultimately gone with the idea besides some sort of card, but the idea of a much smaller list of those personalities and places given a larger role in the story is something I think FFG should capitalize on. It would be a great way to build up its idea of the world and avoid being overwhelmed.

 

I suppose the initial list would be clan champions but perhaps a secondary person for each clan that to fall back on or to provide a different perspective. 

 

Some of the results of this icon drive: link 

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 The idea of icons from Onyx edition sounds like the right sort of idea to push the larger narrative through a focused set of personalities, items, and locations. 

 

Do you have a link or something that explains the idea of icons as it relates to L5r and Onyx? A quick brief is fine, it's just not a term I've seen thrown around before now in discussing this. I can take some guesses, but better not to. :)

 

 

This was the generalized statement AEG made about icons. Of course, we don't know how AEG would have ultimately gone with the idea besides some sort of card, but the idea of a much smaller list of those personalities and places given a larger role in the story is something I think FFG should capitalize on. It would be a great way to build up its idea of the world and avoid being overwhelmed.

 

I suppose the initial list would be clan champions but perhaps a secondary person for each clan that to fall back on or to provide a different perspective. 

 

Some of the results of this icon drive: link 

 

 

Thanks for the info! I don't love the notion of the "steal" (especially one that only Spider can do). But otherwise seems like a cool idea, and in the ballpark of the scope I expect -- i.e. not a wild expansion beyond the kind of thing FFG's done for ANR. Although I do think it'd probably be simplified quite a bit for FFG, like ditching the supplementary Emperor's action thing. Maybe making the participation vote for the card instead? Not really sure what qualified players for input in the ANR events off hand.

 

Could work especially well for a relaunch, especially, although it'd probably be a while before the cards actually saw print if it were based on gameplay results. I guess they could do some kind of vote over the next couple years, though.

 

Hopefully, as discussed elsewhere, the cards would take slots already marked for those clans. And I assume a redesign would be required if only for the new rules, but maybe a hefty for new rules and fitting new mechanical themes (rather than mechanical themes fitting cards), but I assume the original options would be guided by what fits into FFG's plans to begin with.

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 I could see someone making a card (or helping to design) one as per the usual FFG prize that most of the other LCGs have.

 

I'm sure we'll see this. Probably also stuff like The Chronos Protocol:

 

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2013/12/19/who-will-control-the-chronos-protocol/

 

Although a quick skim shows they haven't done anything like this for Netrunner for a while.

 

Did I overlook a more recent event of similar scope, Netrunner players? 

 

 

Let's just say, that the initial response to the Plugged In Tour, the Chronos Protocol predecessor, was...

 

Not Good

 

Part of it was that they weren't ready to announce the Chronos Protocol yet. And it was pretty bitter there for quite some time. But, Netrunner continues to grow. I still laugh at the one deckbuilder that took themselves offline over it, though. 

 

But, the experience really soured FFG on the idea. I think it wouldn't have been as bad, if they hadn't insisted on sending designers out on the Plugged In Tour, which really limited it. And their international partners, from everything I've seen, are not nearly as on the ball as FFG is when it comes to running tournaments (which by the way, their OP program is still going through a lot of growing pains). 

 

 

Maybe lessons learned? Guess we'll see.

 

I think I read somewhere there's a big OP announcement coming at Worlds this year.

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Absolutely. People who don't like this element have plenty of other CCGs to choose from.

 

Yeah, and they did. Which is part of why L5R is at the pass that it is, I'll wager.

 

L5R suffered from lack of advertising and support as AEG focused more and more attention on its brand new shiny children and ignored its first-born.

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Responding to OP:
It's complicated. Yes and No would be my answers. (and I am sure others thinks the same and have said so)

 

I liked the fact that L5R CCG shaped the story, but I liked two things about it. The dynamic it generated and the stories that built the world. It is/was/will be awesome when I am talking with someone and he/she/it tells me "Yeah, I went to a LARPG and I made XXXX famous" or "Yeah, I won a Kotei and named a province in the memory of XXX". I loved how ST played with the prizes and built compelling stories that made me care for the characters and the world.

 

Sadly,by the time I stopped playing the amount of prizes produced many problems: There were SO MUCH tourneys and prizes that it got ridicolous, new gem tourneys, who marries who, who find the missing sash of Otomo XXX, etc, etc, etc. And not only the amount and scope was turned to 11, but there were SO MANY prizes that ST had to stuff as many prizes in each story. This produced what I like to call, Story Time Inflation. There were so many names, prizes and titles that they progressibly lost any kind of meaning. You couldn't be excited about getting a Champion of Bushido, because in 1 year there would reset you, and your character wouldn't even appear in any story, you would become worried whenever you won something, now you have something new to lose. And since new prizes where 'Meh', thenyou upped the scope even further!.

Or even worse, you could be left, forgotten, in a corner of the Empire because Design can't make a mechanic that make your clan WIN a tourney.

 

So yeah, I liked the fact that L5R the Card Game allowed to change the world. I disliked profoundly HOW it was implemented. For example, if you win you can put a name to the card. Or choose from a set number of personalities, or make him marry some1 of your clan, or something. The fact that NO Keeper of the Five elements were a Phoenix tells you a LOT about how broken the system was. In fact, if you want to see how bad this was, just look at the Phoenix. By no fault of their own (I personally know they do try their best to win) they haven't won an important, global tourney in recent years.  Heck, I would say since at least Diamond :s. Tying EVERYSINGLE prize to a tourney win damage the setting and the game

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Absolutely. People who don't like this element have plenty of other CCGs to choose from.

 

Yeah, and they did. Which is part of why L5R is at the pass that it is, I'll wager.

 

L5R suffered from lack of advertising and support as AEG focused more and more attention on its brand new shiny children and ignored its first-born.

 

 

I think there are a lot of reasons. Everyone's going to blame the parts they want to kick, and no one will blame the parts they want to keep. So it goes.

Edited by BD Flory

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Absolutely. People who don't like this element have plenty of other CCGs to choose from.

 

Yeah, and they did. Which is part of why L5R is at the pass that it is, I'll wager.

 

L5R suffered from lack of advertising and support as AEG focused more and more attention on its brand new shiny children and ignored its first-born.

 

 

I think there are a lot of reasons. Everyone's going to blame the parts they want to keep, and no one will blame the parts they want to kick. So it goes.

 

AEG acknowledges having diverted attention and resources from L5R to getting other aspects of the business up and running. They promised that they would be recommitting themselves to L5R, now that everything else had taken off, but that never happened. There may well be other reasons why L5R stumbled, but a huge one was lack of advertising. No one can buy your product if they've never even heard of the bloody thing.

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 In fact, if you want to see how bad this was, just look at the Phoenix. By no fault of their own (I personally know they do try their best to win) they haven't won an important, global tourney in recent years.  Heck, I would say since at least Diamond :s. Tying EVERYSINGLE prize to a tourney win damage the setting and the game

Last big tournament win I can recall right now for Phoenix was Worlds in Lyon, 2010. Determining the fate of Agasha Kyoso, iirc. That was during Celestial Edition. 

 

 

But yeah, three of the Keepers were Crane (Void, Fire, Water. Crab and Dragon claimed Earth and Air), so there was certainly some game-balance issues at that time. ;)  Not to mention the whole "the entire Crane Clan is now enlightened!". 

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There was a Phoenix win during Emperor that had a major repercussion on the storyline...for the Spider.

 

Last win with any influence that I remember too. The choice that player made ended up having Shibatsu raised by the Spider instead of the Crane. I think this example only further proves your point. However, I blame game balance for many of these things rather than how story prizes were awarded.

 

I will add my voice to the side that still wants tournaments and players to have an influence, but to a much lesser degree. I think a good middle ground would be to have kotei winners vote on some important story decisions and the Gencon (or its equivalement) and European Championship winners to get a bigger influence on story. The rest should be handled by the story team, to give them as much freedom as possible to write a good story.

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