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Overpowerd cards

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There are 2 (if my memory serves me right) counterattacks ;)

No but combine all your horses and this card is demonic. Nothing to do with the title: Overpowered cards, but bad for the enemy.  As the creeping doom or teleport-spells they are ok. They are good end of the game cards, and if you take the last flag teleporting some 1 figure units next to you red bannered units, its still nothing to do with overpowered.

 

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spacemonkeymafia said:

Maybe I haven't played enough but how did one achieve 4 consecutive mounted charges?  Aren't there only 2 in the Command deck?

I'm sure Caboose will regale you with HIS version of events, and it was well documented somewhere on DOW, but perhaps accounts of the few survivors of my army were mistaken. I remember Caboose dropping a Charge card, then a second, Charge, to which I Counterattacted, and he Counterattacked my counter attack. . . then it all gets hazy. I seem to remember another charge card played after that, perhaps due to a Battlelore reshuffle or some such.

As Caboose likes to finish the turn out, I seem to remeber him killing more than the 5 or 6 required units, more like 8. The entire left wing, and most of the center were destroyed.

 

Cab, I can't believe that was only Feb 08. Seems like years ago now...

 

Z

 

 

 

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Zeal - Your memory is pretty good.   Basically after the mounted charges/counter attacks, etc..you did play a Battlelore card and thus another Mounted Charge enter play via that.    And I only use this example to say the following (the main point)...

But it only demostrates the fact that goblins can defeat any situation if the strategy is sound and you have the cards to do it.   But more importantly any scenario has that possibility.

And don't mean to rag on Zeal either.  Just happen to get the right cards and thus made good use of them by trying to set them up.   It's one thing to have good cards..it's another if one knows HOW to use them for the situation at hand.

I believe Todd and others have commented on this as well.   There is no point playing your 2/2/2 card early on and then only have 1 unit attack cards later on while your opponent is attacking with 2/2/2.   One has to plan appropriately.   Sure you might not the correct section cards and sometimes you get that dreaded "ugh" hand where you have hardly any units in one section but all in one and you keep getting section cards for the section w/o units.   And then you can attribute it to either 1) poor planning (due to moving units OUT of that section - which obviously you can control to a degree) or 2) bad luck (your opponent has been very good with the dice).

Cab

p.s. Yep it was only last February..too bad you moved away...I suspect you wanted a rematch at some point!

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selbuorT said:

 

Hi there!

New Lore-Cards are coming? Guess I missed that...
Do you know something more in detail?

 

 

Selbourt, Richard has indicated in his other posts that he has had plans for some new Lore cards.  As to when we'll see them is another matter.    That is probably why you might have missed it.

Cab

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The cards certainly do seem out of place, and I for one wish the cleric was actually better at healing than he is at killing!

I think the big problem with the cards that many people have pointed out is not really how many dice per unit you roll, but how many units you can potentialy hit and how that scales up with epic while creeping doom just gets relativley worse.

The simplest fix in my mind would be to limit the number of units you can target. Let the damage scale up by cleric level, but say you can only hit  5 or 6 units on, or next to, a given terain hex.

The spell would then be much more similar to the power level of Creeping Doom.

It would be cool if FFG took this opurtuinty to fix these troublesome cards.

~ CEG

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The more and more I play BattleLore the more i hate HR/FF/..  It is waste of time to implement these in play. This just simply kills the ongoing current game. Good advance and on top of that you launch Hills Rumble.. its takes the FUN out of the game. **** the spell is just not FUN. OK I could just drop it from a game, but why the waste... I would hope some more in the character spell still... like HEALING. Heal next to ONE hill.. or something.

As a side note... a house rule to BL that we are using is that you can kill as many soldier that there are LORE cost of the card. So Hills can kill max 7, and chain lightning might kill 8... works well.. but still feels like cheating.

But how about FFG would make more seats to war consul.. and make more spells to modify the units.. not like HH/fireball that do direct damage to units. As you are manipulating the units you can influence the game in more and it dont feel like cheating, like the "fireball".. (it actually better balanced.. cost 10 and max 1 unit) . Make at least so that someone needs to see the unit...

It so close to 100% fun.. now it on 90% level... but in the future..

1) I would love to see new members in the war consul. Illusionist for example.

2) Spells that Modify the units ability.. make foot soldier to do pursuit or defending untis have spears in battle back... or make units BOLD until gets a hit...

3) More spells that uses tokens... this I mean that the effect would be there UNTIL something.

There are unlimited options and if you would just forget the "Do damage -> anywhere, without any effort/evasive option" : spells... Of course there would be 1 on the 15 cards.. some like Fireball.. or Lightining.. but make it to kill less than 10 units ;)

4) More counter spells. Or mirror spells. AND some type of dispel by default. LVL 1 wizard would dispell level 3 wizards level to 2.. paying some lore... OR LVL 3 wizard could mirror the spells that are used "out character..."

More small spells... Scatter for example is GOOD spell.. it do not kill 10000 units.. it just makes attack go bad. ;)

Br. Ninja

 

... BL has good fanbase ;) will FFG listen to it (not pointing to this post.. but in general)

 

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I know I sound like a broken record, and believe me, I respect the opinion of those who feel that the Cleric nature spells ruin the game, but I respectfully disagree as well :)

 

 

Alistaja said:

 

The more and more I play BattleLore the more i hate HR/FF/.. It is waste of time to implement these in play. This just simply kills the ongoing current game. Good advance and on top of that you launch Hills Rumble.. its takes the FUN out of the game. **** the spell is just not FUN. OK I could just drop it from a game, but why the waste... I would hope some more in the character spell still... like HEALING. Heal next to ONE hill.. or something. 

 

Have to go to work five minutes ago, so no time to go into the strategies and tactics to take when going into battle against a level 3 cleric, but there are plenty. Elements of the game such as resolving the problem of facing a level 3 cleric are what make this game so appealing to me.

Also, I do not have a problem with BL making the Cleric's abilities more destructive than gamelore has built up in players imaginations. The Cleric's god is a vengeful god...no problems with that for me lol

And, for what it's worth, I feel that the best play (barring some uber hill populated board, etc) that the level 3 cleric has is the healing spell/prayer/what have you. Healing mists turns games around every bit as much, if not more than the rumbling hills, frenzying forests, and babbling brooks.

Alistaja said:

 

More small spells... Scatter for example is GOOD spell.. it do not kill 10000 units.. it just makes attack go bad. ;)

 

I know you are being a little facetious here, but I think the perception of the cleric spells is skewed by comments like these. With a level three cleric, they will roll 4d on each targeted unit. On average the targeted unit will take one hit. Over the course of the avalanches, etc., say 7 units are targeted (a healthy amount, mind you, especially if one is playing wisely against the cleric). 28 dice will be rolled. One would expect about 10 hits from those, scattered amongst the 7 units. Not thousands of units, not thousands of figures even gui%C3%B1o.gif
 

I much prefer the controlled tactics that cards such as Scatter offer to my play style than counting on, first drawing, then having the opportunity to cause maximum damage, and then having to have timely rolls, that cards such as Hills Rumble offer.  But I like that they are in the game.  I feel that the deck has a very good balance between controlled tactics lore cards and chaotic high risk/high reward cards.  There is also the medieval lore rules set that smoothes the abrupt edge that can be encountered in the full lore games.  Completely gone are the cards of Hills Rumble and Creeping Dooms ilk.  A very robust and still tension filled way to play the game, that I find as equally rewarding as the full lore game.

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Waste of time is my "new" argument here. Game takes .. lets say 2h.

The minute the you get HR/FF the game is changed. Now you can destroy enemy to pieces and he will have trouble to get back on the game.

I like the lore and all. The point is the WASTE that  HR/FF... makes. I have won the game using that card. But it does not feel like I won a fair battle. ONE TURN and you can kill several units... And in the endgame this is the worst. You get more than one flang and it really feels cheating, as you have played 2h and ONE randomly picked card will end the tight BALANCED fight.  Its not skill to take this card from the deck... If there would be 12 cost or something.

But toddrew you must agree that 7 lores is SO low.

As the low lore rules: hehe... cool. Lets make a game and then see that there is a broken piece... LETS leave it out ? Thats nothing to do with fixing the game... right ;)

The main reason if the waste of time that it creates, but another issue is the Cleric is taken all the time.. as you play to win. Healing, Healing Mist, Healing pool, FF, HR... -overall too bad-ass. And if the god is a "kill type" why not get some hit as well.. ? That would make the cleric spells interesting.

For example Wizard is balanced because Creeping doom is EXPENCIVE. Out of character casting is RARE. HR is cast with out of character at easy. Its cheap and does D2 still damage to many FOR 10 cost. So Creeping doom lvl 3 is not better than 1 lvl HR/FF.. and thats sad.  As you and some other person try to tell the majority that "dont take Cleric" so there will be none HR/FF... or take the card away from the deck. Please join us and say to FFG to print alternatives or make Official rule to lower the impact of the game. Or best: make a new cleric spells to take HR away IF wanted to do so.

When there are many persons saying that its broken... it usually is broken. That is something that toddrew can't argument away ;)

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There is more than just one truth.

You can play it with or without the warcouncil and its masters. There are a few good arguements against overpowered cards. That's right.
And if there are a few players wich said "it is broken", well good. that's their opinion. you'll find even as much player, who will say it's not.

So what?
The point is, that you had maybe bad luck this time as your oponent rolled the dices. Could get more to your advantage next time, if he will have
that bad luck. And then these cards will have not much that effect, they did before to you.
It's nearly all about luck, if you roll the dices. Sometimes the card hits you, sometimes you hit the card gui%C3%B1o.gif

Well and for me it seems to be a difficult situation, if the clerik guy hit me. I have to take it and try to win against great odds. Has something todo with ambition.

And I think every great odds show you the great odds of the battles in the middleages. You can never be shure to win if your troops are outnumbered or if your plans are well prepaired. There is always a chance things go completly different to your plans, a chance to lose. History told us.
And that makes it so entertaining... Everything can happen gran_risa.gif

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Alistaja said:

 

 

The minute the you get HR/FF the game is changed. Now you can destroy enemy to pieces and he will have trouble to get back on the game.

 

Every lore card drawn changes the game. The player who plays best to the opportunities aforded by the cards is usually the one who prevails. Hills Rumble provides a great opportunity if the opponent is huddled in the hills and a command card can reach the spot(s) on the board where those units reside.

"I like the lore and all. The point is the WASTE that HR/FF... makes. I have won the game using that card. But it does not feel like I won a fair battle. ONE TURN and you can kill several units... And in the endgame this is the worst. You get more than one flang and it really feels cheating, as you have played 2h and ONE randomly picked card will end the tight BALANCED fight. Its not skill to take this card from the deck... If there would be 12 cost or something."

With the exception of Shadow Walk, there isn't a card in the lore deck that hasn't been directly responsible for my winning a game. Counting on one particular card is not a wise strategy, putting the cards that make their way into ones hand to their best use is.

"But toddrew you must agree that 7 lores is SO low."

If one is arguing that it is low relative to the 9 lore cost of Creeping Doom, I would disagree. The control that Creeping Doom offers is worth more than 2 lore to me.

"The main reason if the waste of time that it creates, but another issue is the Cleric is taken all the time.. as you play to win. Healing, Healing Mist, Healing pool, FF, HR... -overall too bad-ass. And if the god is a "kill type" why not get some hit as well.. ? That would make the cleric spells interesting."

One can argue the merits of the Healing Pool relative to the training camp and, possibly, the rogue's den, and I will listen, but the Wizard's pentacle is markedly better. Heal is okay, 3 lore to take a hit away from the opponent is fair, but not wonderful - 17% chance of another at level 1, ~30% at level 2, and at level 3 close to 40% chance. Healing Mists, as I commented earlier has the potential for really breaking a game open, both undoing damage that opponent has troubled to inflict, likely at some cost to their forces, then a demoralizing counterattack. When played at the right juncture with favorable rolls, a crushing play. Mists of Terror is one of my favored cards too. With a good mounted charge or other well timed command card, a few flag rolls will wreak havoc on otherwise well protected lines. Despite my arguments that the HR/FF/RR cards are not in anyway broken, and that I very much consider them a fun part of the game, that isn't to say that I do not recognize their considerable impact on the game. The cleric is a good choice. But so are the other lore masters.

If I am playing against someone that I know is taking a level 3 cleric, I feel that I have an advantage with that knowledge. I will select my own war council with a degree of confidence. If the Cleric is taken all the time, that is the fault of the players not the game. It is not broken in this sense. No war council configuration is a guarantee of victory. Often the contrasting make-ups of the war councils are what gives an initial advantage to one player or the other.

"HR is cast with out of character at easy. Its cheap and does D2 still damage to many FOR 10 cost. So Creeping doom lvl 3 is not better than 1 lvl HR/FF.. and thats sad."

I do not agree with this assertion at all. Every hex would have to be a hill hex or adjacent to one for me to even consider it having validity ;)

"As you and some other person try to tell the majority that "dont take Cleric" so there will be none HR/FF... or take the card away from the deck. Please join us and say to FFG to print alternatives or make Official rule to lower the impact of the game. Or best: make a new cleric spells to take HR away IF wanted to do so."

I think you misconstrue my position here. I would never tell anyone "don't take the Cleric". I enjoy the Cleric's impact on the game, and specifically HR/FF/RR's impact on the game. Adventure 8 is one of the scenarios I enjoy heartily. Not taking any levels on the Cleric if one suspects that the opponent will be investing 3 upon it, is a good tactic to employ - but that isn't to say to ignore the Cleric altogether.

"When there are many persons saying that its broken... it usually is broken. That is something that toddrew can't argument away ;) "

While I may be outnumbered by those who dislike the Cleric's impact on the game (and more specifically those three cards' impact), I would heavily wager that those who feel the game is broken by this impact are outnumbered by those who feel it is not a broken element of the game.
 

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heh..

But lets get the "overpowered card" effects in to the open.

HR/FF...: Effects:

 - Effects whole board in one turn. (And here... in every map there are some hills... if you wanna argue this. Please start another discussion, because you can actually see the board before you decide the consul. SO if no Hills... (missing one important aspect of a game) ... loose some variable. So it effects the whole board. So if you have command card to any sector  that has "move 3" you can capitalize HH/FF card whit easy. There are some other spells that affect the entire board, but those are usually tied to UNITS. This is important. The Enchanted Mass Might is the best (non cheating ;) ) Spell i can think of. +d and lore killls too. Still you need to have command card, and have the units to make damage to the opponent. (mounted charge +EMM = killer)

So as argument is: (please comment these directly)

1) Entire board. All 3 sectors are affected. Easy to do "Capitalizing" as the formations breaks and  units drop down to  1-2 figures.

EXAMPLE: If HR would just reduce battle back to d2 to all "next-to-hill-or-in-the-hill" units and it would not have any other effect it would be worth of the 7 lore.

2) Scaling damage: I am all for scaling. But more dices to kill ? As you hit fireball, its really not that difficult to kill an entire unit, but the cost is 10. In HR/FF.. you have RED unit to attack all the units affected. No battleback or using 3 commands to get the red unit moved to front line from the reserve line.

EXAMPLE: Spell would say. If Cleric lvl 3 all next-to-hill... units are attacked by mounted red unit. Effect to the game is the same.(exept you cant do the follow up) you know that this spell might give you more than 3(N)  FREE attacks. If 8 unites are affected you pay less than one lore per teleporting red mounted attacks... (whitout battleback)

EXAMPLE: Would you take a spell that costs 7, but you could command 7 units and if they can hit the enemy enemy cannot hit back. All follow up movement is forbidden. I would take it.

3) No counter tactic. Except counter spell. 2 are in the deck. Dont go to hills.

 IF you cant go to hills. Its like boosting the spell. If cleric taken, DONT go to hills... "what are they thinking".

EXAMPLE: If there would be a spell that makes all hill hexes affected so, that unites in a hill hexes cannot battle back and unites can attack the target d2-d4 (according the level) it would be more than good. I would buy that for a 7 lore.

I dont go to everytime cleric selected..

If it would hit one hill... then part 1) would be forgotten. So it would be at the same level that creepping doom. As cheaper and less on target.

If it would have kills on 1/6 then it would not be red mounted unit Teleporting and hitting all units.

If it would have a rule to sacrifice lore by the opponet to spare units from gods wrath it could be countered with something. And make it actually a tactic to make enemy spent lore to something and then hit with FF/HR...

If opponent would not get to play any command card on the same turn ? I would still use the 7 lores for that spell... or 10 in out-of-character.

Too much in one card. All the single features by them self are good, but its just too many features..

 

 

 

 

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I guess you all think, if someone plays for example HR he rolles everytime with not less than 4 dices and every target will suffer about 2-3 hits.
But that's not what happens at every playing!

It sounds like you fear that on each battle you will be hit by HR-cards and lose half of your troops. There are much more chances to be hit badly, than just from cards like HR or other overpowerd cards...

Take it, play it... gui%C3%B1o.gif

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hehe.. fear of the card. Good point in a different way. In 1 player game. What is the most thing you need to be feared ?

THE ENEMY. Not single card. ;) I take it and play it. Like I have told. We have 7 kill limit.

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Alistaja said:

 

So as argument is: (please comment these directly)

1) Entire board. All 3 sectors are affected. Easy to do "Capitalizing" as the formations breaks and  units drop down to  1-2 figures.

EXAMPLE: If HR would just reduce battle back to d2 to all "next-to-hill-or-in-the-hill" units and it would not have any other effect it would be worth of the 7 lore.

 

 

I'm not arguing with your assertion here, this is what the card does, the shotgun approach.  What one gets in these cards are the ability to affect sections of the board that are determined by the set up and their effectiveness in affecting many units is determined by the enemy's position in relation to the particular terrain.  The enemy has control (to varying degrees depending upon the board) over the number units which will be affected.  This contrasts with Creeping Doom which relegates more control to the player activating the card over which units/area of the board will be affected.  In a sense, Creeping Doom affects the entire board, whereas the Cleric terrain spells only affect areas of the board where that terrain has been placed.

Your example would be a good lore card to have, but it is closer to Communes with Nature than Hills Rumble.

"2) Scaling damage: I am all for scaling. But more dices to kill ? As you hit fireball, its really not that difficult to kill an entire unit, but the cost is 10. In HR/FF.. you have RED unit to attack all the units affected. No battleback or using 3 commands to get the red unit moved to front line from the reserve line.

EXAMPLE: Spell would say. If Cleric lvl 3 all next-to-hill... units are attacked by mounted red unit. Effect to the game is the same.(exept you cant do the follow up) you know that this spell might give you more than 3(N)  FREE attacks. If 8 unites are affected you pay less than one lore per teleporting red mounted attacks... (whitout battleback)

EXAMPLE: Would you take a spell that costs 7, but you could command 7 units and if they can hit the enemy enemy cannot hit back. All follow up movement is forbidden. I would take it."

Fireball and the Cleric Spells have very different affects on the game.  The Cleric Spells can fell a creature (I've both done it and had it happen to me :) ), but at relatively low percentages.  Fireball has a much greater chance of destroying a creature, and this is one of the reasons for its relatively high cost.  The spells have different foci too, the shotgun of the Cleric spells vs. the precision strike of the Fireball.

"3) No counter tactic. Except counter spell. 2 are in the deck. Dont go to hills.

 IF you cant go to hills. Its like boosting the spell. If cleric taken, DONT go to hills... "what are they thinking".

EXAMPLE: If there would be a spell that makes all hill hexes affected so, that unites in a hill hexes cannot battle back and unites can attack the target d2-d4 (according the level) it would be more than good. I would buy that for a 7 lore."

There are direct counter tactics in the dispel and foiled cards.  There are tactics to adopt when playing against a level 3 cleric (just as there are tactics to adopt when facing any particular war council construction).  Not making the entrenchment or attack focus of ones forces be a particular terrain laden section of the board until one is either certain or acceptably sure that the particular terrain spell is out of play is one of those tactics.

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All my Examples are there NOT to say what it should do, but just to show that if any of the examples is valid alone, it is too cheap price for FF/HR.

As the normal internet debate goes, I talk about X and then response is about Y.

But if here is just a miss understanding I am sorry. Not native speaker/Writer.

 

 

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I think that I do understand your intent with the examples - I was attempting (likely not very well :) ) to show that those examples are not completely analagous to what is happening with the Cleric Spells.  Though there are obvious similarites between Creeping Doom and the Cleric Spells, there are also very important differences and implications that do not equate to Creeping Doom being a more expensive play with less potential than the Cleric Spells.

I believe that we are both discussing X, just that X has many facets (and, I just tend to make things more complicated than necessary at times, in an effort to strive for precision in what I'm describing).

Under particular situations the Cleric spells are very powerful and may be played at a great value.  That is not broken, it is the way they are intended to affect the game.  That some/many players do not like the affect that the spells have on the game, I understand and appreciate.  I just do not feel the same.  I enjoy both employing and defending against the tactics that the Cleric spells bring to the game, and don't mind talking about it lol  If what I have to say is not appreciated, I certainly can stop - just trying to be helpful and share my thoughts.

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