Gamesmanship or competitive? opinions

[dbmeboy 807]

I have a hard time feeling good about a win because I punished someone for making this mistake. I know lots of people would be more than willing to punish me, but for me, it wouldn't feel like a genuine win. I'd feel like a jerk, and since we both just playing a game with toy spaceships, I have a hard time feeling proud about a win like that. I think the most I might be willing to do is just fly them away from combat.

 

I want to outsmart and out wit my opponent, not capitalize on them being too distracted to notice they're already stressed when they select a red move.

And that's perfectly fine as long as you don't expect everyone you play to do the same thing.

[kopmcginty 609]

I have a hard time feeling good about a win because I punished someone for making this mistake. I know lots of people would be more than willing to punish me, but for me, it wouldn't feel like a genuine win. I'd feel like a jerk, and since we both just playing a game with toy spaceships, I have a hard time feeling proud about a win like that. I think the most I might be willing to do is just fly them away from combat.

 

I want to outsmart and out wit my opponent, not capitalize on them being too distracted to notice they're already stressed when they select a red move.

And that's perfectly fine as long as you don't expect everyone you play to do the same thing.

Exactly this. Don't want to do it don't. But them doing it to you the next turn wouldn't be them being a jerk. Just more ruthless. Bear in mind we are talking tournament play and not friendly play. In a friendly I'd probably put them in a bad position but not off the table.

[DailyRich 3,346]

If my opponent makes mistakes and I don't, that's as much a part of outplaying them as making better decisions and having a better strategy.

[InterceptorMad 2,007]

Think of it this way: A sports team doesn't stop trying to score points when they are already in the lead so they aren't seen as 'harsh' lol

[digitalbusker 2,248]

Even in a friendly game, if my opponent makes a terrible mistake that I can capitalize on to drastically shorten the game (by winning), I may do it because then we're more likely to have time for another game, maybe one where they're more on the ball.

[VanorDM 11,599]

I think the most I might be willing to do is just fly them away from combat.

That's fine, as long as you don't project that opinion on anyone else. If you think someone is a WAAC Jerk because they capitalize on your mistake, then that is something else completely.

I'm not saying you do. But I have seen people post here who clearly do think that way, and it is those people that I have issues with.

[voidreturn 816]

 

I think the most I might be willing to do is just fly them away from combat.

That's fine, as long as you don't project that opinion on anyone else. If you think someone is a WAAC Jerk because they capitalize on your mistake, then that is something else completely.

I'm not saying you do. But I have seen people post here who clearly do think that way, and it is those people that I have issues with.

 

Not that I have ever done that, but I wouldn't be upset if my opponent did punish me. That doesn't mean I am not allowed to think they might be a WAAC jerk but I don't think they're wrong for doing something the rules clearly allow. Would I get mad? No, but it would show me your character.

 

I recall when people recoiled in horror last year when the Nationals winner was forgot to place his cloak token and his opponent graciously allowed him to do so after the fact. That player's response was he would rather beat his opponent at his best. That's something we should all emulate.

[mearn4d10 81]

You perform a Red while Stressed there are three options for your opponent to consider:

 

1.  Your opponent flies you off the board or puts in you in a position where that is almost guaranteed to happen.

2.  Your opponent chooses some other legal maneuver that puts you in a very bad position but which may not lead to instant death without other things happening.

3.  Your opponent thinks about what you would have set the dial to that isn't red and uses that.

 

In a tournament or some other game where the stakes really matter you're going to see option #1 chosen and should just expect that.  If you are playing a more casual game where who wins and loses doesn't really matter I'd expect to see a bit more option #2 although if your opponent points out the #1 option that should be seen as a learning experience.  The only time I could really see #3 getting used is when you are training someone else and don't want to crush their dreams although pointing out the #1 and #2 possibilities is very reasonable even if they are not selected.

Option #2 is usually my go to, mostly because I like explosions.

[DR4CO 6,234]

Would I get mad? No, but it would show me your character.

 

Oh, shove the freaking hell off, and take your self-righteous attitude with you.

 

Whether or not someone chooses to follow the rules in a game of plastic spaceships tells you nothing about them or their character.

 

I know several people who would send your ship off the board in a heartbeat, and tell you tough luck on the cloak action, but all are incredibly friendly and all of my games with them have been memorable, well-fought matches, and all are willing to have pleasant chats afterwards discussing tactics and builds. Conversely, there are also a few people I've played against who wouldn't send a ship off and would allow a missed action, but are otherwise incredibly unpleasant to play with. They lament dice, the "broken" build I've chosen, refuse to admit their own mistakes, and sometimes outright sulk after a loss. I've also met unpleasant opponents who follow the letter of the law, and thus make games overly tense, and great people who are willing to let things slide, who can make games exceedingly relaxed. How people approach the game tells you nothing, positive or negative, about them as a person.

 

What does tell you about character is when people -- like you, it would seem -- judge their opponents based on what they choose to do in-game, something they have no right or justification to do. It is the most unsportsmanlike attitude imaginable, and it is not only infuriating to deal with, it is infuriating to watch them try to claim the moral high ground.

 

Cut it out.

Edited October 6, 2015 by DR4CO

[WWHSD 9,273]

Heather would send you off the board.

[kopmcginty 609]

Well said DR4CO.

I'll lend ships, tokens, dice, templates, chat about builds and tactics. Try to make sure I'm not an ass to play against. I've even allowed missed opportunity tokens to be placed in a tournie match.

The fact I'll fly someone off the battlefield in a heartbeat says nothing about my character at all IMO

[InterceptorMad 2,007]

The only thing it shows about a person's character is that they understand what this game is.

 

It's a game where you set out to destroy your opponent's ships. So if they put in the wrong move and I could destroy them by putting them off the board, why wouldn't I? To me it'd be the same as them flying directly into my firing arcs and me choosing NOT to shoot at that ship. Makes no sense to me.

 

If someone fumbles the ball in Rugby or passes the wrong way in Football, does the opposing team let them get away with it easier? No, you take the ball and you score out of their mistake.

[Parravon 5,217]

At the end of the day, you do what you can within the rules to win a game. But that doesn't instantly make you a "win-at-all-costs" jerk. It just makes you player that knows how to play. It's all in the attitude you have. The WAAC players can often be jerks without playing at all.

[VanorDM 11,599]

That player's response was he would rather beat his opponent at his best.

That isn't even remotely the same thing. In that case the phantom player forgot to put his cloak token on the table. He had done so every round until then and was flying with ACD so there was no reason at all not to do so.

But more importantly, he noticed it about 10 seconds after he was done with the phantom. No shooting had taken place, no targeting, no actions, ect... The only thing the other player had done was move a ship.

I'm willing to bet that if he had taken actions, targeted the Phantom and rolled dice and then the phantom player realized he didn't put his cloak out, the answer would of been different.

Sending someone off the board isn't even remotely the same. It's not that the other player forgot to put a token out or something.

That's something we should all emulate.

Beating someone at their best does in fact mean taking advantage of their mistakes. Someone's best does not mean flying perfectly. It means beating them at their best, and their best naturally includes mistakes.

[VanorDM 11,599]

I'm going to post this here, because I think it's the single best description of WAAC I've seen.

 

It's a Prestige Class that Lawful Evil Rule Lawyers can take after hitting level level 10.

Honestly, it actually has nothing to do with Rules Lawyers.  Yes, WAAC players will often come off as Rules Lawyers, but they're also the ones who'll do things like ignore mandatory effects when it benefits them, not share tokens even when readily available, take every generosity from an opponent and then slam them to the wall when the roles reverse.  Basically, anyone who values winning above everything else, to the point of one-sided exploitation and often outright cheating.

So frankly anyone who considers someone a WAAC jerk for following the rules in this case is way off the mark, and borderline poor sport themselves.

Edited October 6, 2015 by VanorDM

[John79 47]

Even though the original thread poster has probably not read any of these posts since midway thru page 2...

 

Morals don't have anything to do with sending your ship off to la la land.  The rules say I get to change your dial and max benefit will determine if I send that ship off the edge or destroy it in the next 2 rounds for the points. 

 

A good person might discuss the game with you after it's all over and coach you.

 

Your "mind set" before the game even starts can influence you to make the wrong choices and lose or enjoy it and end in a good game even if you didn't win.  Be sure to not be too critical, especially if you are just learning the game mechanics, and never be afraid to try new things.  Remember it's for fun and a great conversation starter afterwards.  Chances are next time you play your opponent you will enjoy it even more and be more savy.

[Parravon 5,217]

Who was it that said "All's fair in love and war, but nice guys finish last."?

[voidreturn 816]

 

Would I get mad? No, but it would show me your character.

 

Oh, shove the freaking hell off, and take your self-righteous attitude with you.

 

Whether or not someone chooses to follow the rules in a game of plastic spaceships tells you nothing about them or their character.

 

I know several people who would send your ship off the board in a heartbeat, and tell you tough luck on the cloak action, but all are incredibly friendly and all of my games with them have been memorable, well-fought matches, and all are willing to have pleasant chats afterwards discussing tactics and builds. Conversely, there are also a few people I've played against who wouldn't send a ship off and would allow a missed action, but are otherwise incredibly unpleasant to play with. They lament dice, the "broken" build I've chosen, refuse to admit their own mistakes, and sometimes outright sulk after a loss. I've also met unpleasant opponents who follow the letter of the law, and thus make games overly tense, and great people who are willing to let things slide, who can make games exceedingly relaxed. How people approach the game tells you nothing, positive or negative, about them as a person.

 

What does tell you about character is when people -- like you, it would seem -- judge their opponents based on what they choose to do in-game, something they have no right or justification to do. It is the most unsportsmanlike attitude imaginable, and it is not only infuriating to deal with, it is infuriating to watch them try to claim the moral high ground.

 

Cut it out.

 

 

I think you read into that too much. I think you've played too many games with too many unpleasant people. This is a game of toy spaceships; if you want to fly mine off because I made a mistake, then that's on me. There's nothing about this that's moral high ground, I just want to enjoy the game and make friends. I don't enjoy the game more because I win and flying something off when my opponent makes a mistake doesn't give me any satisfaction. If that does for you, then great.

[ParaGoomba Slayer 3,180]

That player's response was he would rather beat his opponent at his best.

That isn't even remotely the same thing. In that case the phantom player forgot to put his cloak token on the table. He had done so every round until then and was flying with ACD so there was no reason at all not to do so.But more importantly, he noticed it about 10 seconds after he was done with the phantom. No shooting had taken place, no targeting, no actions, ect... The only thing the other player had done was move a ship.I'm willing to bet that if he had taken actions, targeted the Phantom and rolled dice and then the phantom player realized he didn't put his cloak out, the answer would of been different.Sending someone off the board isn't even remotely the same. It's not that the other player forgot to put a token out or something.

That's something we should all emulate.

Beating someone at their best does in fact mean taking advantage of their mistakes. Someone's best does not mean flying perfectly. It means beating them at their best, and their best naturally includes mistakes.

Still too late to cloak. You can't see where an opponent has moved a ship to and THEN cloak. There are advantages and disadvantages to cloaking. One of the advantages is the 2 distance barrel roll or boost you get off the decloak, however occasionally that's a disadvantage and you'd be able to better position yourself my choosing not to cloak. I have intentionally chosen not to cloak with ACD Phantoms before.

To me that's like seeing an attack roll end up all focuses and say, "Oh, I forgot to focus. I would have done it anyways." No, you could have target locked or barrel rolled or whatever.