Gamesmanship or competitive? opinions

[ParaGoomba Slayer 3,180]

hi all,

I had an interesting occurrence in my tourney today. I was playing with a large base ship and forgot completely that i couldn't do red manoeuvres when stressed (yes i appreciate the stupidity!). So i revealed a red and my opponent took the dial and proceeded to direct me right to the table edge where the next turn i could do nothing but fly off.

 

Now it really peed me off because I wouldn't do it myself. I'd probably look at what the player would have done if they didn't have a brain fart. (in another game the opposite player actually revealed the wrong direction manoeuvre and i let them change it as otherwise they were flying off the edge so it was an obvious mistake)

 

I suppose my question is- is this perfectly acceptable and I'm just not that competitive?

Those are the rules of the game. I'm happy that your opponent got to autokill one of your ships. Not only does it anger militant (sup HoboJesus) casuals and anything that angers them is a good thing, but it also improves YOUR game.

Having suffered the consequences of your mistake, you will now no longer make that mistake. Also, don't get angry at your opponent for your own mistakes. And crush your opponent with all of your might. Next time your opponent measures an attack with his low PS ship before his high PS one, deny him the opportunity to attack with it.

[Dorn05 152]

In casual play I have flown an opponent off the board and the same has been done to me. No hard feelings or ruffled feathers on either side. We looked at it as part of the game. Comes under the heading of "crap happens". As mentioned elsewhere the attitude of the person redirecting you ship is important. I feel the same way when my opponent misgauges a turn, hits a rock and dies. I feel bad for the opponent for losing a ship due to an accident but I'm happy that I have one less ship to face. I can't claim my opponent feels the same way when he does it to me but so far he hasn't broken into his happy dance.

 

Pretty much this. Revealing a red when stressed is just about the worst mistake you can make in-game so you have to expect the worst outcome.

[TwizztheHunter 10]

I totally see flying someone off the board or into an asteroid with no problem. I had this happen at a tournament to me, i screwed up and tried to k-turn while having stress that i didnt get rid of the previous round and got driven off the board by my opponent, perfectly understandable. but i also believe in karma, my opponent with his last ship placed a red maneuver while still having a stress, so i parked him on a rock. he rolled a crit, got direct hit and ended the round. Karma wins!

[markcsoul 2,135]

I've yet to have this happen in any type of game.  However, I think even if it was a super competitive event, I couldn't bring myself to fly them off the board or put the in a position where it's inevitable.  That just seems too harsh for one dumb mistake, and I would feel like I won on a technicality.

 

I'd probably pick the worst white move I could that either puts them on a rock and/or doesn't give them a shot that round if possible.

[DR4CO 6,234]

That's your call. The rule only says that the opponent gets to choose the dial; it never says that you must choose the worst one possible.

 

But I see so many games lost because of other kinds of single dumb mistakes. I outright threw a game on the weekend because I chose a gentle-1 instead of a straight-1. I see no difference between losing the game like that or losing it because I chose a red turn on a stressed ship. In both cases I picked the wrong move; in both cases I should be punished for it.

[Higgo 42]

I would just see a win like this as hollow. I didn't win on merit or skill or outthinking my opponent. I know you could make that argument against any mistake your opponent makes.

Interestingly the new tournament rules state that you shouldn't be punished for not knowing the finer points of the xwing rules (whether you classify this as a finer point or not is another issue!)

[ScottieATF 2,867]

No this could not be considered a finer point of the rules. Not setting red maneuvers while stressed is X-wing 101.

[DailyRich 3,346]

And if I'm playing well, who's to say I didn't pressure my opponent into a mistake?  Besides, in most competitions between players or teams of equal skill, it's who makes the first mistake that often decides the outcome.  I'm not going to gentleman my way into a loss because it would have felt "hollow" to win by using a written rule of the game.

[VanorDM 11,599]

Interestingly the new tournament rules state that you shouldn't be punished for not knowing the finer points of the xwing rules

You're reading things into that statement that simply aren't there. The section you mention is the tiers of tournament play, and it means that the players aren't expected to be able to quote every rule or spent time reading over the latest FAQ.

It doesn't mean someone should be expect to not have their mistakes capitalized on.

IMO sending someone who tries a red when stressed off the board is no different then unloading on them with a procket when they misjudged a maneuver and ended up stuck on a rock, giving you a perfect shot at them.

[DR4CO 6,234]

I know you could make that argument against any mistake your opponent makes.

 

Exactly. If you follow this logic, the end result is that we're all scrubs who should go home in shame because we don't deserve any of our wins, as we only ever get them when our opponents mess up.

 

I don't really like that. Far too negative. Better to just accept that mistakes happen and every now and then one of them will decide the outcome of a game. After all, this is a game of dice. It is entirely possible to play the most technically perfect game of X-wing and still lose. So why get hung up about it?

[VanorDM 11,599]

There is IMO two main components of skill. The first is not making a mistake, the second is being able to capitalize on the other guy's mistakes.

This idea that winning because the other guy made a mistake is somehow cheep or hollow, just doesn't work. Just because they made a mistake doesn't give you an advantage by default, it simply created an opportunity for advantage.

How well you make use of that advantage is all about how skilled you are.

Honestly, if it weren't for players making mistakes and people being able to take advantage of them, then the whole game is decided solely by the dice. That means skill doesn't even play a part in it, and it's purely random chance.

Take a game like Chess, there's no random chance there, but because of that, draws are fairly common among equally skilled players. Because either neither side made a mistake, or else they weren't able to seize and advantage from a mistake. The players who don't make ones, are generally the master level players, the ones who can't gain advantage from them are the newbies.

The whole idea of playing better than someone really means that you both made fewer mistakes, and were better able to gain an advantage from the other person's mistakes. Because again, if you both played flawless games, that means random chance was what decided the outcome and not skill.

[ParaGoomba Slayer 3,180]

"Most victories came from instantly exploiting your enemy's stupid mistakes and not from any particular brilliance in your own plan." -Shadow of the Hegemon, Orson Scott Card

[dotswarlock 2,424]

This is the kind of mistake that you only make once if you allow yourself to feel the brunt of its effect.

[WGNF911 826]

Manfred von Richtofen and Erich Hartmann would certainly fly you off the board . . . if they didn't disassemble your fighter first haha.  I'm just happy that my mistakes in X-Wing don't result in me dying.  

[howieloader 534]

Thanks for the opinions guys. I also never thought about it from the "doing a red on purpose" perspective. I still don't think i could do it myself. It just wouldn't feel like a fair win. I think I'm probably not a "win first" person. 

 

[Verlaine 1,647]

Still, these tournaments are not your livelihood, i.e. you don't depend on them.

So there is something to be said for playing in such a way that you are satisfied with how you composed yourself. This is subjective of course. Some don't care how they would behave in cases like this one, but at the same time I don't see what's wrong with sacrificing some competitive edge to do something that you believe is right. I mean that there is no objective way to determine what should have priority.

[VanorDM 11,599]

I don't see what's wrong with sacrificing some competitive edge to do something that you believe is right.

And if I believe that flying the guy off the board is right? Then I don't have to sacrifice anything because what I'm doing is both IMO acceptable in terms of sportsmanship and gives me an advantage.

As you said, it's not like someone's livelihood rides on this so it's not like I'm causing them sort of harm by flying them off the table.

I go to tournaments so I can play competitively. If I want play just for fun I'll play with some friends or at my LGS. When I went to Regionals this year, I did so for the sake of the highest level of competition I could get, short of Worlds.

When I play in a tournament I will play competitively and I will expect the other guy to do the same thing, I don't play because I want to try a goofy list, or make pew pew noises. I play for the competition. Part of that is seizing every advantage that I can, while still playing with in the rules and not being a jerk.

[Verlaine 1,647]

I mean that there is no objective way to determine what should have priority.

  

And if I believe that flying the guy off the board is right?

Then by all means, do so. That was clearly implied by my message. I just don't see why this can be argued objectively, because 'trying to win' does not in itself trump 'doing what you think is right'.

In the end, the aim is to have a satisfying game of X-Wing, nothing else (hence the 'no livelihood' caveat). It's a personal and subjective thing how we achieve that.

[VanorDM 11,599]

I just don't see why this can be argued objectively

Yes and no...

Objectively I can argue that since it's clearly allowed by the rules, then someone can not reasonably argue that it's poor sportsmanship to do so. The best you can argue is that it's not good sportsmanship. I'd say that it's commonly accepted that anything that isn't poor sportsmanship, is inherently fair play.

This is different than arguing that the rules don't expressly disallow something, or that if by twisting the rules I'm allowed to do something. The rules make it quite clear how to deal with this situation.

But yes there is clearly a point where someone may a different notion about what is or isn't poor sportsmanship and they should behave the way they see fit. But again I think that yes I can make a very strong case that objectively they can not call sending a ship off the table a case of poor sportsmanship, even if they would never do it themselves.

[Verlaine 1,647]

But yes there is clearly a point where someone may a different notion about what is or isn't poor sportsmanship and they should behave the way they see fit.

Oh I agree. To illustrate, if your moral compass tells you that it's okay to murder kittens, then I'd object. And I'm sure you can think of an X-Wing equivalent with regards to sportsmanship.

But again I think that yes I can make a very strong case that objectively they can not call sending a ship off the table a case of poor sportsmanship, even if they would never do it themselves.

Maybe I'm mistaken, but I was under the impression that OP was talking about what he felt he should do in the given situation, not about looking over the shoulders of other players and telling them what to do. I don't feel he judged others - I always try to fly my opponents off the board, casual game or otherwise, it's not a chance you get every day!

But again, if you really want something close to a rule of thumb to decide what is best, then I'd go for that which makes you feel like you did well, not by default that which is the most competitive move. But neither is being a good sport always the best idea; acting like a bit of a jerk and applying some psychological warfare can be very satisfying at times.

[dotswarlock 2,424]

 

When I play in a tournament I will play competitively and I will expect the other guy to do the same thing, I don't play because I want to try a goofy list, or make pew pew noises. I play for the competition. Part of that is seizing every advantage that I can, while still playing with in the rules and not being a jerk.

 

 

You're the kind of opponent that I like to play with in a competition

[VanorDM 11,599]

but I was under the impression that OP was talking about what he felt he should do in the given situation

Well he said "Now it really peed me off because I wouldn't do it myself." which at least to means he's applying his own moral compass to other people. Myself if I get upset because someone does X, that means I'm applying my standards to someone else.

If I see someone doing X and I really don't think there's anything wrong with it, then it's pretty unlikely I'd get upset about it.

I will admit that sometimes all these sportsmanship threads start to get blurred and I tend to forget who said what and when about whatever. I've just seen so many people try to equate competitive play to a WAAC jerk that I may get a bit more defensive the is called for.

[kopmcginty 609]

In a friendly whatever.

In a tour is I'd be stunned if someone didn't fly me off the table given the chance. Don't see how it's an issue in any way. Its not poor sportsmanship, it isn't stretching the rules or being underhand. It's punishing a mistake to the fullest of your ability within the rules of the game. Exactly as you should in a competitive tournament.

[arnoldrew 1,713]

Not flying your opponent's ship off the board is exactly the same as just passing on a Range 1, 4 dice attack with Backstabber because your opponent screwed up and let you shoot him in the back. If it makes you feel bad, then don't do it, but don't get mad if they do it to you. It's not cheap. It's capitalizing on your opponent's mistakes.

[voidreturn 816]

I have a hard time feeling good about a win because I punished someone for making this mistake. I know lots of people would be more than willing to punish me, but for me, it wouldn't feel like a genuine win. I'd feel like a jerk, and since we both just playing a game with toy spaceships, I have a hard time feeling proud about a win like that. I think the most I might be willing to do is just fly them away from combat.

 

I want to outsmart and out wit my opponent, not capitalize on them being too distracted to notice they're already stressed when they select a red move.