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cielago

Integrating the Spider

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Borderline insulting? Yeah as if. Telling people to shut up and take what you deem is the best for them is opression cause you force your opinion onto them without them being able to have a say in how they want to be dealt with or what they think is the best for them.  

 

No, “borderline offensive.” It's not oppression and I literally never, at any point, said anything about anyone having to shut up and take it. Stop making things up, and stop comparing not getting the exact product you want with oppression.

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They have done that though. They pulled the rug out from togashi in order for the dragon to fit better within the overall story. They have been a bit directionless, but are still a functional member of rokugsn and the setting in general.

I dispute this characterization. They haven't been that functional and have been all the way directionless.

 

Not that this is a problem that Very Definitely will be solved by player votes, but it's a problem they needed to solve and didn't.

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If you don´t ask us but we are the only faction which would be subject to we do what we want with you faction I feel opressed by the people who decide what the best is for the faction Iam part of. If there is a option to have influence of the story it should be of equal power for each and not only for a part of them. If you take it away fine but than for all not onyl for the Spider. 

 

 

That isn't what oppression is. That's people not giving you everything you want.

 

Other people are going to decide what is best for your faction, because they will be deciding what is best for all the factions, for what is best for the setting. If you are here looking out for "your faction" to defend it from the others, youa re exactly as wrong as all the anti-Spider people you are arguing with. You should not be trying to get what is best for your faction. You should be trying to build the best setting (well, to suggest ideas that other people can use to build the best setting). You can say that it's a good thing for Spider to have X or Y thing in order to appeal to certain groups of players that would noy otherwise be appealed to, but you should not be "defending the Spider" or acting as though you can secure the interests of the Spider in opposition to the interests of others. That is not what is happening right now.

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Sheesh, I go to sleep and things just roll and roll and roll...

 

It's like a more acrimonious Winter Court!

 

So far as it goes,I cobbled up an alternate launch to Onyx over on the AEG boards (now, of course, locked away where I can't get at it) which started diverging at the moment Seiken demoted Kanpeki.AsI recall, it was fairly well-received, and the big change was basically Kanpeki getting furious but being an adult about it and temporarily,at least, accepting Shibatsu as nominal leader of the Spider Clan.

 

And then things got out of hand. Not going to write it up from scratch again, but basically, Shibatsu gets assassinated and Kanpeki gets framed for it, Hijinks ensue.

 

There are ways to, if not totally defang them, make the Spider legitimately wronged, even by the standards of the playerbase.

But letting them just bring their leashed oni over for a tea party with the Lion and Crane is not it.

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Sorry Osmo, I meant to respond to your point.

 

 

Changing things is obviously necessary. But we can either change the Spider, which will affect 1/9 of the player base, or we change the rest of the Empire, with will affect 8/9 of the player base. Expecting everyone else to change so your faction doesn't have to is unfair.

 

Also, please stop misrepresenting your opponent's point of view. No one wants the Spider to be an NPC faction. They just want it changed to fit with the rest of the setting.

 

Fake Edit: Holy crap is this thread hard to keep up with. There have been 7 posts since I've started cobbling together this multi-quote monstrosity.

 

 

I actually want to address the two points brought up in this argument as the crux of the entire argument happening here, and why it is ultimately going to continue to spiral out of control.

 

Point 1 - Player Agency in Clan Decisions - This becomes a common theme in this argument, that the Spider must change their Clan in order to fit into the setting and that the Spider have a large measure of control over their revisions.  Yes, they will likely be substantially revised, but the Spider players are not in charge of this revisions, nor are the other Clans in charge of their revisions (and yes, there will be revisions of other Clans, if nothing more than simple contraction for the core set).  Both sides need to realize that changes will happen largely outside of their control.  I actually like this point because it puts the onus on FFG to make the setting work, and they will likely do a decent job with it.

 

Point 2 - The Setting Will Change - I believe a lot of people base arguments around the Rokugan left at the end of AEG's ownership of the properity and that decisions about where the setting goes from there can and should include all of the backstory and context.  For me, this argument and others like it are the prime example of why FFG needs to study the game setting, understand the context, but then make changes and revisions free of the constraints imposed by twenty years of historical inertia.  A new perspective that is not mired by the traditional storyline arguments and divorced of the levels of passion that dominate the forum will likely make this game more accessible to incoming players and allow FFG to make a more cohesive, consistent setting that may or may not feature all of the factions as they once were.

 

 

Everything you say is true. I'm not saying the other clans should stay exactly the same as they were. If changing something about a clan will improve the setting for everyone, then it's a worthy sacrifice. In fact, in my view, that's exactly what I'm arguing for in this thread.

What I'm saying is that other factions shouldn't be changed specifically to benefit the Spider. That would be unfair.

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3.  Could just as easily be fixed by just not having a Big Bad Threat at all.  Just the Clans, with their opposing priorities and different worldviews and competition over things ranging from their perceived honor, to the limited resources of the world around them.

 

 

This. In a setting where every clan has their sympathetic motivations, shadowlands/spider were always an outlier. "We want to destroy the world/serve the underworld!" is of a different order.

 

I'd personally be just as happy excluding the "destroy the world/empire" stuff altogether.

 

If Spider can be made to work in that framework, fine. If not? Dump them. (With condolences to Spider players.)

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 You are kidding me right? You go and say people should accept the dictatoship and be quiet a bout it? No way. this is nothing which should be tried cause it will piss of many people if onyl 8 out of 9 factions can have a say in the story because of the complete subjective assumption of people with limited view on how the setting should be. 

If we take away the player driven sotry than for the complete part of the comunity and all have to  accept what FFG thimngs is the best for it but how you said it, it would be opression and this is nothing anyone should support. 

 

 

That's not oppression. Seriously. It's changing the format to storytelling instead of improv.

 

I get that it's something you don't want, but you're being overly dramatic about it.

 

Also, Buttlord's suggestion, as I read it, wouldn't allow the other 8 clans say, either. It'd all be up to FFG and whomever they put in charge of the story, as is pretty much the case with the rest of their games.

 

Which would be fine with me.

 

But then, I don't imagine I'll be bothering to read much of the fiction, so the only thing for me with story is, "Does it interfere with making this a good game? No? Then cool, go crazy."

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3.  Could just as easily be fixed by just not having a Big Bad Threat at all.  Just the Clans, with their opposing priorities and different worldviews and competition over things ranging from their perceived honor, to the limited resources of the world around them.

 

 

This. In a setting where every clan has their sympathetic motivations, shadowlands/spider were always an outlier. "We want to destroy the world/serve the underworld!" is of a different order.

 

I'd personally be just as happy excluding the "destroy the world/empire" stuff altogether.

 

If Spider can be made to work in that framework, fine. If not? Dump them. (With condolences to Spider players.)

 

 

I wouldn't be so drastic. Full removal would be akin to removing a Clan, something I'm totally against.

 

If I'm allowed to use a food metaphor, the Jigoku Elements of the game (Shadowlands, the current Spider, Taint, etc) are like pepper: In the proper quantities, it's awesome, but use too much of it and you ruin the whole meal.

Edited by Bayushi Karyudo

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3.  Could just as easily be fixed by just not having a Big Bad Threat at all.  Just the Clans, with their opposing priorities and different worldviews and competition over things ranging from their perceived honor, to the limited resources of the world around them.

 

 

This. In a setting where every clan has their sympathetic motivations, shadowlands/spider were always an outlier. "We want to destroy the world/serve the underworld!" is of a different order.

 

I'd personally be just as happy excluding the "destroy the world/empire" stuff altogether.

 

If Spider can be made to work in that framework, fine. If not? Dump them. (With condolences to Spider players.)

 

 

I wouldn't be so drastic. Full removal would be akin to removing a Clan, something I'm totally against.

 

If I'm allowed to use a food metaphor, the Jigoku Elements of the game (Shadowlands, the current Spider, Taint, etc) are like pepper: In the proper quantities, it's awesome, but use too much of it and you ruin the whole meal.

 

 

Well, like I said, "If they can be made to work..." :)

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Sorry Osmo, I meant to respond to your point.

 

 

Changing things is obviously necessary. But we can either change the Spider, which will affect 1/9 of the player base, or we change the rest of the Empire, with will affect 8/9 of the player base. Expecting everyone else to change so your faction doesn't have to is unfair.

 

Also, please stop misrepresenting your opponent's point of view. No one wants the Spider to be an NPC faction. They just want it changed to fit with the rest of the setting.

 

Fake Edit: Holy crap is this thread hard to keep up with. There have been 7 posts since I've started cobbling together this multi-quote monstrosity.

 

 

I actually want to address the two points brought up in this argument as the crux of the entire argument happening here, and why it is ultimately going to continue to spiral out of control.

 

Point 1 - Player Agency in Clan Decisions - This becomes a common theme in this argument, that the Spider must change their Clan in order to fit into the setting and that the Spider have a large measure of control over their revisions.  Yes, they will likely be substantially revised, but the Spider players are not in charge of this revisions, nor are the other Clans in charge of their revisions (and yes, there will be revisions of other Clans, if nothing more than simple contraction for the core set).  Both sides need to realize that changes will happen largely outside of their control.  I actually like this point because it puts the onus on FFG to make the setting work, and they will likely do a decent job with it.

 

Point 2 - The Setting Will Change - I believe a lot of people base arguments around the Rokugan left at the end of AEG's ownership of the properity and that decisions about where the setting goes from there can and should include all of the backstory and context.  For me, this argument and others like it are the prime example of why FFG needs to study the game setting, understand the context, but then make changes and revisions free of the constraints imposed by twenty years of historical inertia.  A new perspective that is not mired by the traditional storyline arguments and divorced of the levels of passion that dominate the forum will likely make this game more accessible to incoming players and allow FFG to make a more cohesive, consistent setting that may or may not feature all of the factions as they once were.

 

 

Everything you say is true. I'm not saying the other clans should stay exactly the same as they were. If changing something about a clan will improve the setting for everyone, then it's a worthy sacrifice. In fact, in my view, that's exactly what I'm arguing for in this thread.

What I'm saying is that other factions shouldn't be changed specifically to benefit the Spider. That would be unfair.

 

I think both points will be the situation in whatever the new Core set will be called. I'm more inclined that Rokugan and the empire will change the way the Spider have to operate. Yeah, the Emperor might give more favors to the clan but a story team (and victories by other clans) can easily be inserted to have some of that Imperial power wane as easily as making the Emperor his own person. Even inter-clan conflict can be constructed easily.

 

It just seems that most people go down to eliminating a great clan because it suits there's. As above, it isn't that difficult to have a shift.

 

It does seem like a lot of people tend to throw around the argument that there's going to be oni at every tea party or social event and disregard anything else so the Spider have to be destroyed.

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It does seem like a lot of people tend to throw around the argument that there's going to be oni at every tea party or social event and disregard anything else so the Spider have to be destroyed.

 

 

What do the spider want? (And I'm not suggesting it's an Oni Tea Party.) Like seriously, what's their deal? What's their ultimate goal?

 

Even better, can you link me to something current and (until recently) official?

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Also, Buttlord's suggestion, as I read it, wouldn't allow the other 8 clans say, either. It'd all be up to FFG and whomever they put in charge of the story, as is pretty much the case with the rest of their games.

 

Correct. I'm simply suggesting prudence in solving a complex dilemma, which I'm sure everyone can agree with, at least in principle. I think the Spider Clan should exist, but also that it must compromise quite a bit to do so (including giving up its place as the perennial villain of the setting). For the record, I think the rest of the clans should compromise a little, too. FFG strikes me as a nice operation so I imagine they'll find a way to strike a good balance. Customer feedback may help, which is also why I would never tell people to shut up if they're unhappy, even if the reason they're unhappy isn't a good one.

Edited by Buttlord

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Sorry Osmo, I meant to respond to your point.

 

 

Changing things is obviously necessary. But we can either change the Spider, which will affect 1/9 of the player base, or we change the rest of the Empire, with will affect 8/9 of the player base. Expecting everyone else to change so your faction doesn't have to is unfair.

 

Also, please stop misrepresenting your opponent's point of view. No one wants the Spider to be an NPC faction. They just want it changed to fit with the rest of the setting.

 

Fake Edit: Holy crap is this thread hard to keep up with. There have been 7 posts since I've started cobbling together this multi-quote monstrosity.

 

 

I actually want to address the two points brought up in this argument as the crux of the entire argument happening here, and why it is ultimately going to continue to spiral out of control.

 

Point 1 - Player Agency in Clan Decisions - This becomes a common theme in this argument, that the Spider must change their Clan in order to fit into the setting and that the Spider have a large measure of control over their revisions.  Yes, they will likely be substantially revised, but the Spider players are not in charge of this revisions, nor are the other Clans in charge of their revisions (and yes, there will be revisions of other Clans, if nothing more than simple contraction for the core set).  Both sides need to realize that changes will happen largely outside of their control.  I actually like this point because it puts the onus on FFG to make the setting work, and they will likely do a decent job with it.

 

Point 2 - The Setting Will Change - I believe a lot of people base arguments around the Rokugan left at the end of AEG's ownership of the properity and that decisions about where the setting goes from there can and should include all of the backstory and context.  For me, this argument and others like it are the prime example of why FFG needs to study the game setting, understand the context, but then make changes and revisions free of the constraints imposed by twenty years of historical inertia.  A new perspective that is not mired by the traditional storyline arguments and divorced of the levels of passion that dominate the forum will likely make this game more accessible to incoming players and allow FFG to make a more cohesive, consistent setting that may or may not feature all of the factions as they once were.

 

 

Everything you say is true. I'm not saying the other clans should stay exactly the same as they were. If changing something about a clan will improve the setting for everyone, then it's a worthy sacrifice. In fact, in my view, that's exactly what I'm arguing for in this thread.

What I'm saying is that other factions shouldn't be changed specifically to benefit the Spider. That would be unfair.

 

I think both points will be the situation in whatever the new Core set will be called. I'm more inclined that Rokugan and the empire will change the way the Spider have to operate. Yeah, the Emperor might give more favors to the clan but a story team (and victories by other clans) can easily be inserted to have some of that Imperial power wane as easily as making the Emperor his own person. Even inter-clan conflict can be constructed easily.

 

It just seems that most people go down to eliminating a great clan because it suits there's. As above, it isn't that difficult to have a shift.

 

It does seem like a lot of people tend to throw around the argument that there's going to be oni at every tea party or social event and disregard anything else so the Spider have to be destroyed.

 

 

Has someone here made the argument that there will be an oni at every tea party?

 

Or have they made the argument that the typical Rokugani would view having Spider at their tea ceremony the same way they'd view having an oni there?

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Personally, I blame diamond/lotus for a lot of this. When the ccg rolled out super specific clan themes in an era where more and more prizes were becoming a "pick a character to get exp'ed or do this" type prizes, it pushed elements of certain clans to the forefront that while flavorful weren't really designed to be the primary story identity of the clan. This persisted so often for so long, that's it's almost become ingrained in our way of thinking that each clan needs some unique superpower or elite unit/focus that no one else has to justify inclusion. Pulling away from that, and focusing on the philosophical differences and viewpoints on interclan conflicts opens FFG up for more wiggle room and gettin down with the samurai drama vibe. Spider being born during/after this period unfortunately leaves them with no fall back plan. They can't just go back to what they were before, because they didn't exist. And the power they do have, largely flies in the face of what the setting was established as. I hope FFG can come up with a way to reconcile that, but I also don't wish that the way it's done, is to just let them keep said problematic superpower either.

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Sorry Osmo, I meant to respond to your point.

 

 

Changing things is obviously necessary. But we can either change the Spider, which will affect 1/9 of the player base, or we change the rest of the Empire, with will affect 8/9 of the player base. Expecting everyone else to change so your faction doesn't have to is unfair.

 

Also, please stop misrepresenting your opponent's point of view. No one wants the Spider to be an NPC faction. They just want it changed to fit with the rest of the setting.

 

Fake Edit: Holy crap is this thread hard to keep up with. There have been 7 posts since I've started cobbling together this multi-quote monstrosity.

 

 

I actually want to address the two points brought up in this argument as the crux of the entire argument happening here, and why it is ultimately going to continue to spiral out of control.

 

Point 1 - Player Agency in Clan Decisions - This becomes a common theme in this argument, that the Spider must change their Clan in order to fit into the setting and that the Spider have a large measure of control over their revisions.  Yes, they will likely be substantially revised, but the Spider players are not in charge of this revisions, nor are the other Clans in charge of their revisions (and yes, there will be revisions of other Clans, if nothing more than simple contraction for the core set).  Both sides need to realize that changes will happen largely outside of their control.  I actually like this point because it puts the onus on FFG to make the setting work, and they will likely do a decent job with it.

 

Point 2 - The Setting Will Change - I believe a lot of people base arguments around the Rokugan left at the end of AEG's ownership of the properity and that decisions about where the setting goes from there can and should include all of the backstory and context.  For me, this argument and others like it are the prime example of why FFG needs to study the game setting, understand the context, but then make changes and revisions free of the constraints imposed by twenty years of historical inertia.  A new perspective that is not mired by the traditional storyline arguments and divorced of the levels of passion that dominate the forum will likely make this game more accessible to incoming players and allow FFG to make a more cohesive, consistent setting that may or may not feature all of the factions as they once were.

 

 

Everything you say is true. I'm not saying the other clans should stay exactly the same as they were. If changing something about a clan will improve the setting for everyone, then it's a worthy sacrifice. In fact, in my view, that's exactly what I'm arguing for in this thread.

What I'm saying is that other factions shouldn't be changed specifically to benefit the Spider. That would be unfair.

 

I think both points will be the situation in whatever the new Core set will be called. I'm more inclined that Rokugan and the empire will change the way the Spider have to operate. Yeah, the Emperor might give more favors to the clan but a story team (and victories by other clans) can easily be inserted to have some of that Imperial power wane as easily as making the Emperor his own person. Even inter-clan conflict can be constructed easily.

 

It just seems that most people go down to eliminating a great clan because it suits there's. As above, it isn't that difficult to have a shift.

 

It does seem like a lot of people tend to throw around the argument that there's going to be oni at every tea party or social event and disregard anything else so the Spider have to be destroyed.

 

 

Has someone here made the argument that there will be an oni at every tea party?

 

Or have they made the argument that the typical Rokugani would view having Spider at their tea ceremony the same way they'd view having an oni there?

 

 

Both. It's just a gimmick to try and slander the clan's name. Most people seem to forget all the Susumu stuff for the nightmare scenario. I guess forgetting that courtly side helps their argument?

 

Kuroko's flavor perfectly captures the feeling: "Her family is small and often detested across the realm. Kuroko smiles politely and plans."

 

Oni Tea Party should be a card though. Or maybe Ogre Tea Ceremony?

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Alright, let me try to be constructive here.

 

 

Folks arguing for the Spider, specifically Teveshszat, Huitzil37 and Drudenfusz. Please present your reasons for why the Spider's existence is beneficial for the setting, in a way that can't be achieved by:

 

a) The Scorpion Clan;

b) The Otomo and other existing Imperial Families;

c) AND the Shadowlands Horde.

Because the Scorpion Clan and the imperial families have totally other focus points. The imperials are there to keep the order intact while dividing the clans so they can´t band together while the scorpions are the pragmatists of the setting and doing anything they need to serve the empire. Actually the scorpion are the heroes of rokugan cause the do what they need not what they want to save a place which is not friendly to them. 

the Spiders existence to the setting is beneficial cause you have a faction which is a dark mirror to the bushido and show the empire the flaws of their philosophy this actually is something I really like at them and I fell this makes the story more interesting if you have these dark mirror effects.

 

The Shadowlands hordes is a plain mindless evil what I want the more intelligent and subtle evil of the Spider is nothing they could provide with their oni and chaos. I like the infiltration strategy and I also like maho and crazy people like Yaijinden Yuchiban. I don´t see the Shadowlands providing the degree of intelligent evil the Spider can do. 

 

Also I don´t want the spider to stay a great clan. What I want is that they get their moment of glory (Onyx Empire) and than become something different from the Shadowlands Horde and Great clan. That's why I prefer the exile into the Ivory Kingdoms where they can stay a constant thread to rokugan but nothing which you would easily take back while they can keep their cool tainty toys. 

 

 

I missed this in the crazy post-race a few hours ago. Apologies.

 

I understand where you're coming from a little better now - you want to see more of what I've spoken of a few times - "evil" with a non-capitalized "e".

 

I disagree a bit on the Otomo/Scorpion venue though - because they have so much power (the Otomo temporal power, the Scorpion power derived from their non-adherence to bushido), they also have a greater tendency to fall to human corruption, and therefore to represent that "non-capitalized evil" (truth be told, all the Clans, Great and Minor, have the capacity for that... the Scorpion and the Imperials are just easier to use).

 

On the point of the Dark Mirror to Bushido - Shourido: It is an interesting concept, but it is also one that doesn't need the Spider (as a Clan) to work. If you nuked all the Spider in the Empire, you could still have Shourido around, without a single problem - perhaps something that was followed in secret, but no less interesting or widespread than it currently is.  :)

 

I strongly disagree on the Shadowland Horde representing mindless evil (or Evil). In fact, it has been shown in lore that while the lesser denizens (goblins, zombies, skeletons) are often quite, well, stupid... the Oni, Lost, and other strong denizens of the Shadowlands are capable of planning and of being extremely intelligent (or of keeping their past intelligence, in the case of Lost). Consider this: If they were mindless and stupid, then the Crab would never lose, with all their tacticians, siege weaponry and Wall. Yet, they do lose a lot of battles and a lot of samurai... and not all due to numeric superiority. :)

 

The exile... well, sure. It would allow the Spider to keep their "cool tainty toys", but it would ultimately remove them as a playable faction. Is that really preferable to having the Spider without Taint? I thought the opposite was true...  :wacko:

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What is wrong is people trying to make the spider into something that they are not.

 

Wrong how?

 

Spider reverting to Shadowlands Horde?

Spider being the "anti-heroes with a heart of gold?"

Spider obtaining dominance over an evil realm?

Spider being an evil mastermind that finally gets to sit on the throne?

 

I don't quiet follow.

 

 

 

 

What is wrong is people trying to make the spider into something that they are not.

 

 

In which way?  I've seen a lot of different things that people want the Spider to be.

 

 

Spider = Bad guys

 

Shouldn't be labeled as good in any way.

Kanpeki's father is Daigotsu, in turn which whose is Fu Leng.

>.> People just expect too much

 

Many people want Spider to survive. But they do it in a way like trying to fit a circle piece into a square block. Just won't happen the way they want it. I'd leave it to the story tellers to figure it out to be honest. Its a mess as it is at the moment.

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Spider = Bad guys

Shouldn't be labeled as good in any way.

Kanpeki's father is Daigotsu, in turn which whose is Fu Leng.

>.> People just expect too much

 

Many people want Spider to survive. But they do it in a way like trying to fit a circle piece into a square block. Just won't happen the way they want it. I'd leave it to the story tellers to figure it out to be honest. Its a mess as it is at the moment.

So if they're that incompatible with the setting, why not discard them and make up some story about them being unceremoniously obliterated? There has to come a time when a decision can be made, and people have been getting impatient with the Spider being repeatedly given options that they either try to dodge or that are then not committed to.

 

And I think it's been explained a few times, but ‘bad guys’ is not a purpose that one factions should be given in the setting, but someone whose identity should be determined by the story currently being told. It was bad when they did it with the Scorpion Clan and it was doubly so when the Spider Clan showed up, barely bothering to hide its desire to rule/destroy Rokugan. Sorry, an openly evil Spider Clan is dumb and the alternative (Horde) is a pain from a storyline/design perspective. The Spider Clan playerbase can't make up its mind about which element to give up when asked, waddling back and forth between their prized possessions like a weeping toddler, clutching them tightly as they are alternately pointed out and the players beseeched: ‘May we take this one, then?’ I don't know what FFG's plan is, but the smart move is to steer clear of this nonsensical back-and-forth (to use your own analogy, the Spider being a square peg and Rokugan a round hole) and either change the Spider or throw it out.

 

Edit: I guess my point could be summarized as, “Moral turpitude is not a job.”

Edited by Buttlord

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The Spider Clan playerbase can't make up its mind about which element to give up when asked, waddling back and forth between their prized possessions like a weeping toddler, clutching them tightly as they are alternately pointed out and the players beseeched: ‘May we take this one, then?’ I don't know what FFG's plan is, but the smart move is to steer clear of this nonsensical back-and-forth (to use your own analogy, the Spider being a square peg and Rokugan a round hole) and either change the Spider or throw it out.

 

Edit: I guess my point could be summarized as, “Moral turpitude is not a job.”

 

 

This is a completely jerkish and completely inaccurate way of saying "the Spider clan right now encompasses two different distinct player bases who like it for different reasons and want different things."

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This thread. Wow.

 

It seems that battle-lines have been drawn, and we now have two groups of people repeating the same things at each other at increasingly high volume rather than engaging in productive discussion.

 

I am going to step away from IC arguments about whether or not the Spider work or can be made to work in the setting, because ultimately different people have different visions of what Rokugani can consider acceptable, and we don't know how much - if any - of the storyline, or established cosmology, prejudices, attitudes, etc., will be retained. Instead, I will make some OOC observations.

 

1) From a CCG meta perspective, the switch from Shadowlands to Spider was good. Having a matchup where a Dishonour player would basically be obliged to scoop as soon as they saw the opposing SH was bad for the game, and removing a primarily (almost entirely) Nonhuman/Undead faction from the game simplified card design by tightening the focus on Samurai (including shugenja and monks). However, the Forgotten Temple provided an interesting instance of how a faction's resistance to dishonour could be represented, without rendering it totally immune. I confess myself unsure how well-balanced it was, because I just don't get to play in a broad enough environment, but it was a start, and I'm sure there are other potential methods of resolving the issue (including outright changing the victory conditions, as discussed in various other threads). Given the framework AEG was working with, it made sense, but 'immunity to CCG Dishonour' is ultimately not a reason to ditch the Horde in favour of the Spider.

 

2) Part of the problem with the Spider is that their fanbase (and the base of their opponents) is divided among people who see them as misunderstood and mistreated, but not inherently evil; people who see them as evil, but able to work within the system; and others who see them as committedly evil, and only able to work within the system until they have the power to take it over. All of these positions are flawed in one way or another, because the ST itself never quite worked out what it was doing with the Spider. Without having a coherent picture of who the Spider are and what they want, it's impossible to make a coherent argument for or against them, and we may not have that for some time, depending on how forthcoming FFG decides it wants to be.

 

3) This kind of antagonism ALWAYS arises in every thread about the Spider, and several that weren't supposed to be. It reinforces the 'siege mentality' of Spider players, with some justification; but the more defensive the Spider players get about their faction, the more other people find their existence objectionable. It's a vicious circle, which has to be broken. One way to do it would be to say "Spider are a thing, deal with it". This clearly doesn't work. One way to do it would be to say "Spider are not a thing, deal with it". This would make some people happy, but plenty of others very upset, and that is not good. Ultimately, the only way forward is to deal with each other civilly, remember that we all love the same game, and that the intensity of our feelings on the matter should be a source of strength, not internal division. In the absence of any formally supported game, L5R is only as good as its community, and we need to hang together.

 

 

 

With all that said, I will dip a toe back into the debate itself, to restate my position on the Spider (it was on the AEG forums, but).

 

The Spider in their 'current' form (ie, as AEG left them) are clearly not workable. Changes must be made, either to the setting or to the Spider themselves. Since enough complaints have already been made about changing the setting to suit the Spider, here is my list of what the Spider would have to lose in order to be acceptable within Rokugan (if they want to quit Rokugani society and revert to pure antagonism, that's fine - I was a Horde player originally - but that's a different kettle of fish entirely):

 

1) Worship of Jigoku. Worship of Fu Leng is possibly all right, with some fiddling, since he was after all a Kami, but worship of Jigoku itself - or Daigotsu and the Dark Fortunes, since they are creatures of Jigoku alone, with no inherent divinity - runs too strongly against the setting's religious establishment to be acceptable. This includes the Family names.

 

2) Use of Taint/Maho/Undead/Nonhumans/Whatever-the-hell-Kinuye-is-doing/Nothing. This shouldn't really need to be said.

 

3) Pride in their history. Yes, every Clan has skeletons in its cupboard. However, everyone else has suffered for theirs (the Scorpion were exiled twice, the Akodo Family was disbanded, Toturi ordered the Unicorn to attack the Lion in Storms Over Matsu Palace, Shiro Moto was razed in revenge for the Khan's Defiance, etc.), AND everyone else also has a strong history of loyal service. The Spider have an almost uniformly despicable track record - far worse than anyone else's, especially if one includes pre-Spider Daigotsu, but even if restricted to the time since they became a Clan - with virtually nothing good to balance it, and have never been punished for it in any meaningful way. The Spider need to either make a totally clean break from their past, or spend a long, long, long, time atoning for it.

 

4) Explicit rejection of Bushido/promotion of Shourido. If they want to keep Shourido on some level, that's fine, and if they want to privately consider Bushido a code for fools and weaklings, that's also perfectly ok. Bushido, however, is known with certainty to be of divine origin, and no other code of ethics can be compared its equal without approaching blasphemy. The Tsuruchi had to more or less give up the Wasp Code in exchange for acceptance as legitimate members of society, and even the Scorpion pay some degree of lipservice to Bushido in public, however much they might snicker at it among themselves. Shourido can be retained, but not promoted as an equal or equivalent to Bushido.

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