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Integrating the Spider

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I would like the obsession with Daigotsu to simmer down, finally. It became kind of disturbing.

Not all of us are all about the D. Don't keep trying to force it down our throats. We were kind of promised that if we only swallowed Daigotsu's ascension to godhood, he would at least never show up again. Oh wait, he bound the Shadow Dragon. And his Jigoku stains are all over the place.

Oh man, I'm going to get into so much trouble.

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Daigotsu is the albatross around the Spider Clan's neck.

 

The only comparable burden is Yoritomo to the Mantis,or arguably Togashi to the Dragon.

 

A Lion fan may think Matsu Domotai rocks, and a Phoenix fan may think Isawa Tadaka was the best thing ever, and the Crane may miss Hoturi or Noritoshi, and so on, but everyone more or less allows those characters to stay dead and in the background...

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What you call burden I call awesome hero. I don´t think either Yoritomo nor Daigotsu are a burden to the respective clan. 

Acutally Daigotsu was one of the main reasons why I got into the Shadowlands and Spider cause I like him and his story and, since L5r was an Story interactive game, I wanted to see him win over the empire. 

Why did Daigotsu stay not dead is really easy he was for a very long time the mirror to the emperor of Rokugan while the Emperor was the avatar of Tengoku Daigotsu was this for Jigoku. 

 

Than he safed the emprie for his own expanse but as side effect became the Ruler over the Realm of Jigoku so actually he does not stay back cuase he is the main Antagonist of the story. Th reason is cause he rules about the 

main ANtagonist the realm of evil. 

 

Now he is guiding his son and therefore also is there cause his son wanted interaction with him to get strenght. I don´t really see the problem with him cause I actually like him.

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That's very nice. He still casts a shadow his nominal successors can't seem to escape from.

Daigotsu (and Yoritomo too, for that matter) is a narrative load the Spider are schackled with because he utterly overshadowed everybody else affiliated with them. And this is bad, because all characters grow stale sooner or later.

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I don´t think that ever char has to grow stale sooner or later else rincewind or Death or the Rat-Death, Susanne or  Granny Weatherwax from Terry Pratchet would not have returned in more thna one book and were still awesoom in everone they had a part in. There is nothing like stale characters only thing there is are bad writers and lack of imagination.

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I don´t think that ever char has to grow stale sooner or later else rincewind or Death or the Rat-Death, Susanne or  Granny Weatherwax from Terry Pratchet would not have returned in more thna one book and were still awesoom in everone they had a part in. There is nothing like stale characters only thing there is are bad writers and lack of imagination.

Literally every single character you listed there overstayed their welcome with me by a solid decade.

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I'd make an argument that the Spider clan aren't the problem, it's every other clan that need to be looked at.

 

There is a common storyline pattern that crops up where a big bad arises and all the great clans band together and defeated it, because they are the good guys. I can understand the appeal of it from the player base, (almost) everyone wants to be the hero. For a game like L5R though, with multiple factions nipping at each others heels it doesn't work. You might be better off having a single faction for the great clans and a single faction for the bad guys and play out the clear-cut struggle of good versus evil.

 

Instead, I propose that the great clans need to rediscover their dark side. The scorpion need more Ninja, the Dragon more 'enlightened' madmen, the Crane more vindictive callous courtiers, and so on. They don't necessarily have to be corrupt, and evil is such a relative term but just as each clan exemplifies a trait of bushido it should also show a failing. The problem isn't that the great clans unify against the Spider, it's that the great clans don't unify against the Crane. It might be something unpalatable for some players, we've seen more than a few drives for a clan to be pure white, but it would make for a far more interesting story.

 

My hope is that FFG will give the storyline a resting period, a generation or two of peace to let the empire settle. Have all of the great clans as actual groups of people with merits and flaws rather than symbolic paragons. Then such games we will play!

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Also if you want to be the Hero rember that the heroic Journey is not a straight way of victories but most of the time it has various maijor setbacks and defeats in it as well. Also a real hero is not perfect actually he is quiet imperfect and most of the time not very heathly in his mind but he still does what has to be done. so if you want to be the hero you also need to learn how to accept defeat cause it is a way for you Hero to grow and to evolve.

 

For the character thing let me say that the Man was a very good writer and many books were sold and I enjoyed the characters I mentioned in each book and many people did so too therefore I don´t think the character is a problem but how the author deal with them. 

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I'd make an argument that the Spider clan aren't the problem, it's every other clan that need to be looked at.

 

There is a common storyline pattern that crops up where a big bad arises and all the great clans band together and defeated it, because they are the good guys. I can understand the appeal of it from the player base, (almost) everyone wants to be the hero. For a game like L5R though, with multiple factions nipping at each others heels it doesn't work. You might be better off having a single faction for the great clans and a single faction for the bad guys and play out the clear-cut struggle of good versus evil.

 

Instead, I propose that the great clans need to rediscover their dark side. The scorpion need more Ninja, the Dragon more 'enlightened' madmen, the Crane more vindictive callous courtiers, and so on. They don't necessarily have to be corrupt, and evil is such a relative term but just as each clan exemplifies a trait of bushido it should also show a failing. The problem isn't that the great clans unify against the Spider, it's that the great clans don't unify against the Crane. It might be something unpalatable for some players, we've seen more than a few drives for a clan to be pure white, but it would make for a far more interesting story.

 

My hope is that FFG will give the storyline a resting period, a generation or two of peace to let the empire settle. Have all of the great clans as actual groups of people with merits and flaws rather than symbolic paragons. Then such games we will play!

 

So... instead of fixing the obvious flaw that 8/9ths of the playerbase grumbles about, you're all about fixing that which virtually no one complains of?

 

That's.... interesting.

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It's less about the specific character, I suspect, than about his relative longevity in the setting compared to his contemporaries. That saddles him with a disproportionate narrative load.

Funny, do you think Bayushi Kachiko also overstayed her welcome?Or did Mirumoto Hitomi? Both cast equally large shadows on the setting as Yoritomo or Daigotsu, or Hida Kisada and so on. L5R is full of those larger than life characters that stayed for a long time, and some times even their death didn't stopped them from having a a huge influence still. I always saw this as feature of the game, not a problem. It makes the clans/faction not as faceless as they are so often in other games. Look, we are talking these days still of some great people that lived mellenia ago, and in an game that often goes to be epic, I want to have those characters too, that change the world and you keep talking about them like Julius Caesar for a long time to come.

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I'd make an argument that the Spider clan aren't the problem, it's every other clan that need to be looked at.

 

I actually agree with your proposition, that the inherent failings and less pleasant sides of each Clan - even and especially when they think they're doing the right thing - don't get enough coverage, though I submit that part of the reason for that is that the story has too often been focused on uniting against the Big Bad of the arc. However, the Spider have - from a Rokugani perspective - essentially no redeeming features, except that the Empress said they were a Clan. They go far, far, further in rejecting all that Rokugani hold dear and sacred than anyone else, and they do it unrepentantly. Even the Lion can respect the Scorpion for their dedication to Duty and adherence to tradition- they may be dishonourable scum, but they are at least samurai, with a place in the Empire. The Unicorn contain honourable and properly Rokugani elements (the Utaku mostly, but some of the Shinjo and Iuchi also). The Mantis are a harder sell, but then, I don't like them either (nothing against the playerbase- you guys are awesome, as is every Spider player I've ever personally met- I just don't like the Clan). Yes, nobody else is perfect, and everybody can find something to dislike about everybody else. The Spider, however, are egregiously bad, and it is by no means inappropriate for people to focus on them as a problem in the setting.

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One way I like to integrate the Spider, which has been touched upon, is to make them another clan that does the job no one else wants to do. In this case, they placate the Shadowlands/Jigoku.

In 1e, Lord Moon had a temple in Otosan Uchi. The Fortune of Plague still has shrines. These are not gods that people like. But people in Rokugan pray to them anyway hoping to avoid their wrath. Why not have a group, as loathed as it could be, that does the same for the Kami/God/Whatevs that's running Jigoku? It's pretty well known that part of Fu Leng's beef was that he was left alone in a hole in the ground and that ticked him off. Give him some folks that pray to him (with or without accepting the taint).

I think this could open lots of options for the Spider. For one, they could be another group that actively goes after folks like Bloodspeakers. After all, these guys are using the taint for their own purposes and not showing appropriate reverence to the Dark Lord. On top of that, they could look into haunted/tainted places in the Empire to see why the Shadowlands have sprung up there. Heck, if it's a portal to Jigoku they could work to close it since there'd be little reason for the realm to work with anyone else.

Would the Spider still be pariahs? Sure. But they'd be pariahs in a similar way to the Tortoise. One's allowed to mingle with gaijin and become spiritually unclean. The other is devoted to revering something that makes you spiritually unclean. Of course, the latter would allow for numerous untainted samurai that can then handle the affairs of the Spider outside their own lands. After all, if you have a clan, someone needs to represent them. These people would, amongst other things, be able to play the card that if you don't give the Spider rice, lumber, or whatevs, they may become lax in their devotions and Jigoku will get pissed. No one wants that.

It's just an idea. A good one? IDK. There is no answer to this problem that everyone is going to agree with.

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It's less about the specific character, I suspect, than about his relative longevity in the setting compared to his contemporaries. That saddles him with a disproportionate narrative load.

Funny, do you think Bayushi Kachiko also overstayed her welcome?Or did Mirumoto Hitomi? Both cast equally large shadows on the setting as Yoritomo or Daigotsu, or Hida Kisada and so on. L5R is full of those larger than life characters that stayed for a long time, and some times even their death didn't stopped them from having a a huge influence still. I always saw this as feature of the game, not a problem. It makes the clans/faction not as faceless as they are so often in other games. Look, we are talking these days still of some great people that lived mellenia ago, and in an game that often goes to be epic, I want to have those characters too, that change the world and you keep talking about them like Julius Caesar for a long time to come.

 

 

No, for one simple reason. Kachiko was active and relevant for the Scorpion for about 4-5 years, real time (from 1995-1999/2000). Much the same for Hitomi, as she became pretty much irrelevant to the Dragon after her ascension. Daigotsu has been active and relevant for the Shadowlands, Lost, and Spider (before and after they became a Great Clan) since... 2002, I think? That's a period of 13 years already. Three times the period of other iconic characters of the game.

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Again, the major problem with Daigotsu is that he is like all the other big Bosses. It's that short of Hitomi, he's the only one that basically broke the cycle of the setting, and it happened in such a way that anyone non-spider was insulted by it. Why, you might ask? Because it took something from everyone. Everyone. Samurai, daimyo, clan champions, Imperial inner circle, all the super secret police of all types, even the All Knowing Empress herself that can make everyone not Daigotsu tremble atvthe mere sound of her un-modified voice.

It didn't just make Daigotsu the king of awesome. It made everyone else lesser in norder to do that, and at the expense of forcing a collective group of imbecilic clan representatives on the player base to try and find engaging. We didn't.

Arguably, the Destroyer war was to show how the story can make everyone equally incompetant, to make the Spider shine. Further more, the out-monked the dragon, out-flanked the Unicorn, out ninja the Scorpion, politically outmanuever the Crane, metaphysically out performed the Pheonix. The Crab were rended impotent and taken out of the fight, theantis were...being Mantis and the Lion were late to the party.

And then took a potentially redeeming moment of awesomness for Daigotsu and re-wrote it into blackmail.

And again, thier the main motivation is to topple the empire in the name of Daigotsu.

As a non-spider, i cannot find a reason to like them with all of that.

Edited by Sashmiel

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It's less about the specific character, I suspect, than about his relative longevity in the setting compared to his contemporaries. That saddles him with a disproportionate narrative load.

Funny, do you think Bayushi Kachiko also overstayed her welcome?Or did Mirumoto Hitomi? Both cast equally large shadows on the setting as Yoritomo or Daigotsu, or Hida Kisada and so on. L5R is full of those larger than life characters that stayed for a long time, and some times even their death didn't stopped them from having a a huge influence still. I always saw this as feature of the game, not a problem. It makes the clans/faction not as faceless as they are so often in other games. Look, we are talking these days still of some great people that lived mellenia ago, and in an game that often goes to be epic, I want to have those characters too, that change the world and you keep talking about them like Julius Caesar for a long time to come.

 

 

No, for one simple reason. Kachiko was active and relevant for the Scorpion for about 4-5 years, real time (from 1995-1999/2000). Much the same for Hitomi, as she became pretty much irrelevant to the Dragon after her ascension. Daigotsu has been active and relevant for the Shadowlands, Lost, and Spider (before and after they became a Great Clan) since... 2002, I think? That's a period of 13 years already. Three times the period of other iconic characters of the game.

 

But people in the thread here keep saying that Yoritomo is equally an issue, but Yoritomo was also just active during the time of Kachiko. Worse, Hitomi remained in the setting as the new moon goodess and thus had even be around to the race of the throne where she got thrown out of Tengoku, so your count is there of again. And like I said, Hida Kisada also returned from the dead for a while.

 

Anyway, I wonder if by your definition Batman and such characters in comics are also have overstayed their welcome, since they are for many more dacades around, but it seems people still enjoy those characters....

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Really you can´t find a single reason? Not even the one most prominent for most clan leaders? I mean hey first I think you as a scorpion should look forward to a world where you can use things like Ninja and poison freely to eliminate you nemisis the kolat. also you can freely go for the court controling blackmail power without fearing people to shame you for it. Last but not least if you support him you get more provinces and power cause Iam sure the Loions will oppose him and therefore loose their lands and holdings.

 

Actually there are many reason for other clans go for the support of the Spider caus in the end the leaders are more or les pragmatic and more or less power driven even when they paint it with honor or art. 

 

Also as long as a character is arround and people like him he did not overstay cause this would mean no one would buy the books/games/comics/animes dvds anymore. One good example is Naruto, One piece or Fairy Tail. Also Sailor Moon and other animes. Also lets look for Togashi Satsu(Aka Togashi) he stayed around till the end of Celestial and nobody did complain here.

 

Daigotsu esentialy is what Togashi is for the Dragon we don´t have chaning leaders we have one who stays no problem with that 

Edited by Teveshszat

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The Spider work for the "power" that wants to destroy everything the rest of Rokugan believes in.

 

Who exactly has a reason to support that?

And that is the point, if you make them welcome in Rokugan, so that they feel it is their home too, they would no longer want to destroy it. It is only the intollerance and mentality to want to keep them outside that makes them hate the rest of Rokugan. Basic integration politics 101.

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... Would the Spider still be pariahs? Sure. But they'd be pariahs in a similar way to the Tortoise. One's allowed to mingle with gaijin and become spiritually unclean. The other is devoted to revering something that makes you spiritually unclean...

 

I don't mind the idea of having a faction dedicated to reverence of the Ninth Kami- I could even see it becoming a Great Clan, if only to maintain formal equality of status among the followers of the Kami (though then Ryoshun should probably get one, too...), even if its numbers remained very small. It would, however, have to be dramatically different from the current Spider to be workable- so much so that nothing is gained by referring to it by the same name, in my view. Furthermore, and the reason I quoted this section in particular, the Tortoise's gaijin dealings are formally known only to the Emperor/Empress. I'm sure the Scorpion know, and the Mantis probably do too- maybe even the Unicorn- but it's very much not out in the open, and the Tortoise always strive to maintain plausible deniability (not to mention that their daimyo traditionally offers seppuku to each new Emperor, if I remember rightly), because it's just not acceptable in wider Rokugani society, however necessary it might be. In other words, for the 'Spider' to occupy a similar role to the Tortoise, they would need to have an official role distinct from their actual purpose, which makes justifying their GC status harder, and so on and so forth...

 

 

 

As to the discussion about domineering characters and overshadowing- it's entirely possible to discuss what the Scorpion Clan does and why people like them (or not), for good and for ill, with barely a reference to Kachiko. Hitomi is even less relevant to the nature of the Dragon, even if she has been a persistent character in the setting. Hida Kisada, I despise, so no argument there (though, again, he's not integral to who/what the Crab are). Yoritomo and Daigotsu, by contrast, are utterly central to their Clan's identities. Yes, that's true of all Clans' founding Kami- but most Clans' Kami strutted their stuff in the distant past (Togashi is an exception, but while he was around, he was a similar problem for the Dragon), so they provide a set of ideals, rather than a towering presence from which none of their followers are yet to escape, and the Clan is defined as much by those who have followed in their footsteps as by the Kami themselves. Every Clan has iconic characters. No Clan is as reliant on a single character for their self-definition as the Spider and Mantis.

 

(also, I for one am thoroughly sick of Batman. But that's neither here nor there.)

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I seem to recall that there was a bit of grumbling at Kisada's return, though it wasn't as much of an issue because there was a large time gap between his removal from the setting and his resurrection.

 

And I repeat, Hitomi was a non-issue because she was irrelevant for her Clan, the Dragon, and the same for Yakamo - they didn't interfere, they didn't act. That never happened to Daigotsu - he is always present, always a factor, always interfering with the story.

 

I think that Yoritomo is a different beast. His issue isn't one of overshadowing, but more like he became the measuring stick - every other character is compared to him, and pretty much all of them are found wanting. 

 

Regarding comic-books... there's a reason why there's been a movement of changing the iconic characters: Thor's a woman, Spider-Man has had more personas than a Goju, Hulk will be asian, and so on. DC has been more resistant to this, but even they killed Superman, crippled Batman (who got replaced for a couple years), etc. 

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The Spider work for the "power" that wants to destroy everything the rest of Rokugan believes in.

 

Who exactly has a reason to support that?

And that is the point, if you make them welcome in Rokugan, so that they feel it is their home too, they would no longer want to destroy it. It is only the intollerance and mentality to want to keep them outside that makes them hate the rest of Rokugan. Basic integration politics 101.

 

 

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The Spider work for the "power" that wants to destroy everything the rest of Rokugan believes in.

 

Who exactly has a reason to support that?

And that is the point, if you make them welcome in Rokugan, so that they feel it is their home too, they would no longer want to destroy it. It is only the intollerance and mentality to want to keep them outside that makes them hate the rest of Rokugan. Basic integration politics 101.

 

 

 

The Spider Clan doesn't want to be integrated in the Empire -- they want to infiltrate and corrupt and turn the Empire.   That's what their Boss wants, and it's their entire true purpose. 

 

(Individuals aside, this is the Clan we're talking about.)

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The Spider work for the "power" that wants to destroy everything the rest of Rokugan believes in.

 

Who exactly has a reason to support that?

And that is the point, if you make them welcome in Rokugan, so that they feel it is their home too, they would no longer want to destroy it. It is only the intollerance and mentality to want to keep them outside that makes them hate the rest of Rokugan. Basic integration politics 101.

 

 

 

The Spider Clan doesn't want to be integrated in the Empire -- they want to infiltrate and corrupt and turn the Empire.   That's what their Boss wants, and it's their entire true purpose. 

 

(Individuals aside, this is the Clan we're talking about.)

 

And why do they want that? Why do they hate the empire and want to see it destroyed? And do you think the Spider want to do that even when tehy would rule the empire?Come on, think for a moment, the Spider are just people too! They are a minority that faced planty of discrimination, so of course they hate the way of life in the empire, but that usually changes with minorities that become part of the system, is that so hard to grasp?

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And why do they want that? Why do they hate the empire and want to see it destroyed? And do you think the Spider want to do that even when tehy would rule the empire?Come on, think for a moment, the Spider are just people too! They are a minority that faced planty of discrimination, so of course they hate the way of life in the empire, but that usually changes with minorities that become part of the system, is that so hard to grasp?

 

...

 

I gotta ask this. Are you serious, or just trolling?

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