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cielago

Integrating the Spider

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I respected that the majority of the players wanted the horde like behavior back. And honestly those folks would leave the clan as they would be just monsters not samurai at that point. But those that remain already have an identity. Kicking them out just because they were once out and you don't agree with that storyline isn't gonna end any better than having gone back in time even further and not letting the Scorpion come back from the sands. The oh I hate them and don't want them around cross armed stance has been huge...and it really kept me from returning the game for five years. 

 

I actaully like the Spider and am fine with them sticking around... as long as we don't have to drastically change the rest of the setting to accomodate them.

 

 

Starting fresh with the LCG, Jigoku/Taint could be made part of the Celestial Order.  An element of the world that must exist in balance with the rest.  You can make it that Iweko upset this balance and to right it Tengoku and Jigoku bless Kanpeki's ascension to Emperor (wed to Miaka).  No seals being broken, no conjoined realms, and a reason for tainted folk to exist within Rokugan and not as death demanding pariah.  The Crab & Scorpion still have their walls to hold against the tainted nonhuman elements. You could also clean up the redemption/cleansing stuff that popped up out of nowhere and replace it with a single process that was discovered through thousands of years of experience and investigation by the Asako/Kuni/whoever else.  No more miraculous cures that are discovered in 2 days that couldn't be found in 1k.

 

Another possibility is to give each major realm a Kami leader instead of 7 in Tengoku and 1 in Jigoku.  

 

The problem with this and many of the other ideas, are that they expect drastic changes in the setting. Even sympathetic non-spiders would be alienated by these types of solutions.

 

Of course, there's precedent, since the Destroyer War went down that path. But I don't need to remind you how well that was received by the general playerbase.

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You want to stay a Great Clan, fine. Be a Great Clan. You want to rule the Empire with the Taint? Stop expecting equal treatment.

I would say ‘tough ****’ to the second one. L5R is a game that is literally about, to use popular Spider Clan terminology, Iweko's lapdogs. Being an antagonist should not be a **** option. It breeds bad blood in a community where one playerbase constantly gets disproportional amount of exposure and is always portrayed as a threat to the others. The Shadowlands Horde was pretty bad from both mechanical and prize support perspectives. AEG tried to fix this by forming the Spider Clan. But instead of committing to it and creating a compelling story of an entire nation pulling itself out of a pit to become something approaching a civilized people, and telling the community why that decision was made, they were all “We want YOU to be in CONTROL go win at cards and tell us what to do!!!!!!!!!” And so here we are.

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You want to stay a Great Clan, fine. Be a Great Clan. You want to rule the Empire with the Taint? Stop expecting equal treatment.

I would say ‘tough ****’ to the second one. L5R is a game that is literally about, to use popular Spider Clan terminology, Iweko's lapdogs. Being an antagonist should not be a **** option. It breeds bad blood in a community where one playerbase constantly gets disproportional amount of exposure and is always portrayed as a threat to the others. The Shadowlands Horde was pretty bad from both mechanical and prize support perspectives. AEG tried to fix this by forming the Spider Clan. But instead of committing to it and creating a compelling story of an entire nation pulling itself out of a pit to become something approaching a civilized people, and telling the community why that decision was made, they were all “We want YOU to be in CONTROL go win at cards and tell us what to do!!!!!!!!!” And so here we are.

 

well, ya know, except its not. its included ratlings, nagas, spirits, ninjas, onis, goblins, ogres, zombies and all manner of non traditional samurai stuff since its inception. there is a cranky minority that wishes it were otherwise, but thats just not the case. in the particular instance of the shadowlands, we've been around nearly since the game's inception in one form or another. we're as much a part of the game as any other clan, and the game is as much "about" us as the lap dogs. 

 

now i'll grant that it presents mechanical issues, but you can't use "you're usurpers get out of my japan simulator!" as an excuse. the solution is better design, something AEG demonstrated it had a lot of problems with, especially in the last few years. in spite of that, however, the game has lasted 20 years, something the vast majority of CCGs haven't managed. so obviously the problems hasn't been SO profound that the game hasn't been able to survive. 

Edited by cielago

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Sorry but as more as I read I get to belive people forget how good stories are written. You don´t get a comepellingf story when you main character wins all the time. Actually I found out this is pretty boring. When you write a good stroy (and that is what we all want or not) about magic samurai and their struggle with their honorable Ideals you need setbacks. The Onyx Empire is one. Why fear this opportunity to grow on and get back stronger ? It is a good way to get the story intresting and a good start for a rebuild plan of the emprie afterward, which actually could lead to many inter clan conflicts. 

Also after the empire fails we don´t even have to give them back to the Shadowland Horde why not exile them to the Ivory KIngdoms that would leave them the playable and unique faction I like and prevent the old Shadowland Horde problem. 

So I think best Idea is give it to them for a limited time (maybe not even as an arc in the game but as background) and then crease them of the great Clan status and exile them to the Ivory Kingdoms where they stay the Spider faction and become something completly new and different from the traditional Shadowland horde thing. I would ofc not take their taint away cause I like the dark Mirror of Bushido approach. 

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If L5R were JUST a story? No problem. But it's a story that is inextricably linked to a card game based on competition. The how and why matters. The Toturi dynasty was the result of a major tourney win. Had the khans March succeeded(an ushered in the chagatai dynasty) it would have been the result of a series of tournament wins. The Iweko dynasty was the result of an arc long mega game. Kanpeki dynasty... 0 additional effort. You can't label a game with "win and affect the story" if that doesn't actually apply. While I hope FFG departs from that in a much more significant way, that was a huge part of L5R's success during the AEG tenure. If an NFL team goes 1-15 in the regular season, and Goodell just throws up his hands kicks out every playoff team and declares Tampa Bay the bestest around and Super Bowl Champions, the other teams(most notably ones whose performance has warranted recognition) are going to be pissed.

There have been numerous opportunities to paint Rokugan into struggles where Evil has won and every remaining life and decision is important. Kali Ma was a perfect example of a scenario in which L5R could have rocked that kyd survival horror rebellion angle. But that worked because Kali Ma wasn't a playable faction. It was a we all lost scenario, not the 8 of you lose, but YOU win super bonus fun prize.

Edited by DJARVISNECKBEARDIII

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well, ya know, except its not. its included ratlings, nagas, spirits, ninjas, onis, goblins, ogres, zombies and all manner of non traditional samurai stuff since its inception. there is a cranky minority that wishes it were otherwise, but thats just not the case. in the particular instance of the shadowlands, we've been around nearly since the game's inception in one form or another. we're as much a part of the game as any other clan, and the game is as much "about" us as the lap dogs.

 

now i'll grant that it presents mechanical issues, but you can't use "you're usurpers get out of my japan simulator!" as an excuse. the solution is better design, something AEG demonstrated it had a lot of problems with, especially in the last few years. in spite of that, however, the game has lasted 20 years, something the vast majority of CCGs haven't managed. so obviously the problems hasn't been SO profound that the game hasn't been able to survive. 

Without getting to much into the definition of the word ‘about’, no, L5R is not just as much about the Shadowlands Horde (or ratlings, or nagas) as it is about Rokugan and the great clans. The Horde has been provided with the tools to assert itself in the story, sure, but that's part of the problems I'm talking about, because it requires special prize support and representation in the story. This is not always an improvement or even a non-factor in the story, depending on what's happening in the setting. I'm not categorically against corrupt decks, but nostalgia can't make the Shadowlands Horde not a bad idea in the game's current incarnation. Maybe better design or story reorganization/retconning can in the LCG, I don't know. I would personally propose the Spider Clan exist in the setting as a “diet evil lapdog” (to use ironically a hysterical talking point that surfaced last spring) with optional (balanced) villain/other tools that any clan could use that might influence the storyline if present in a winning deck.

Edited by Buttlord

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Well I guess if drastic changes to the setting would upset the L5R CCG playerbase nothing should change to make the setting work in the LCG.  People don't like the way Spider became a Great Clan, they don't like Goddesses Part 4, they don't like the Destroyer War but don't dare change the setting to make things work.  I don't get it.  This isn't about appeasing L5R players to just transfer the community wholesale from AEG to FFG.  It's about fixing the game and bringing in new players as well.  Everyone seems to agree that there's problems with both the setting and mechanics but want to preserve them anyhow.

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I think I'd rather have a Spider Clan win a tournament and get some story prizes rather than the Shadowlands Horde win and who knows what they get. 

 

I was looking through places like reddit and other forums and most of the anti-Spider stuff seems to be just pro-Shadowlands Horde. 

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People keep acting like the Spider are antagonistic to them, as players, int he world. And they aren't. They keep sayign a change would be bad, because it would be giving too much to the Spider -- I've seen the phrase "have your cake and eat it too" which is the least productive possible way to look at this.

 

L5R's hood is open right now and it can be worked on. Changed. parts swapped or replaced. The thing that you like about it can have all the cruft and bad decisions removed from it. Spider players want what you want -- an interesting setting with interesting conflict. 

 

So you feel like integrating the Spider was bad, made no sense, required the guys you like to be stupid, etc etc. Fine. Probably true. But the response to this should not be "So you can't ever be integrated into he setting!", it should be "Now that we have a chance to do it over, how do we get to the goal you want, without making me have to act like an idiot?"

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Well I guess if drastic changes to the setting would upset the L5R CCG playerbase nothing should change to make the setting work in the LCG.  People don't like the way Spider became a Great Clan, they don't like Goddesses Part 4, they don't like the Destroyer War but don't dare change the setting to make things work.  I don't get it.  This isn't about appeasing L5R players to just transfer the community wholesale from AEG to FFG.  It's about fixing the game and bringing in new players as well.  Everyone seems to agree that there's problems with both the setting and mechanics but want to preserve them anyhow.

 

Everyone agrees that the setting needs changes. The problem is we can't agree on what should be changed.

The Spider's current integration into the Empire isn't working. Coming up with solutions is what this thread is about. What I'm saying is that expecting the rest of the setting to change so that the Spider can stay the same isn't reasonable. It would alienate more players than it would appease.

Something has to give, and it's going to have to be something within the Spider.

 

 

People keep acting like the Spider are antagonistic to them, as players, int he world. And they aren't. They keep sayign a change would be bad, because it would be giving too much to the Spider -- I've seen the phrase "have your cake and eat it too" which is the least productive possible way to look at this.

 

L5R's hood is open right now and it can be worked on. Changed. parts swapped or replaced. The thing that you like about it can have all the cruft and bad decisions removed from it. Spider players want what you want -- an interesting setting with interesting conflict. 

 

So you feel like integrating the Spider was bad, made no sense, required the guys you like to be stupid, etc etc. Fine. Probably true. But the response to this should not be "So you can't ever be integrated into he setting!", it should be "Now that we have a chance to do it over, how do we get to the goal you want, without making me have to act like an idiot?"

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the Spider shouldn't be integrated into the setting. I badly want the Spider to be integrated.  I just want it to be done in a way that's fair to everyone else.

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Well I guess if drastic changes to the setting would upset the L5R CCG playerbase nothing should change to make the setting work in the LCG.  People don't like the way Spider became a Great Clan, they don't like Goddesses Part 4, they don't like the Destroyer War but don't dare change the setting to make things work.  I don't get it.  This isn't about appeasing L5R players to just transfer the community wholesale from AEG to FFG.  It's about fixing the game and bringing in new players as well.  Everyone seems to agree that there's problems with both the setting and mechanics but want to preserve them anyhow.

 

Everyone agrees that the setting needs changes. The problem is we can't agree on what should be changed.

The Spider's current integration into the Empire isn't working. Coming up with solutions is what this thread is about. What I'm saying is that expecting the rest of the setting to change so that the Spider can stay the same isn't reasonable. It would alienate more players than it would appease.

Something has to give, and it's going to have to be something within the Spider.

 

 

People keep acting like the Spider are antagonistic to them, as players, int he world. And they aren't. They keep sayign a change would be bad, because it would be giving too much to the Spider -- I've seen the phrase "have your cake and eat it too" which is the least productive possible way to look at this.

 

L5R's hood is open right now and it can be worked on. Changed. parts swapped or replaced. The thing that you like about it can have all the cruft and bad decisions removed from it. Spider players want what you want -- an interesting setting with interesting conflict. 

 

So you feel like integrating the Spider was bad, made no sense, required the guys you like to be stupid, etc etc. Fine. Probably true. But the response to this should not be "So you can't ever be integrated into he setting!", it should be "Now that we have a chance to do it over, how do we get to the goal you want, without making me have to act like an idiot?"

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the Spider shouldn't be integrated into the setting. I badly want the Spider to be integrated.  I just want it to be done in a way that's fair to everyone else.

 

 

I have a real weakness for protagonists with "shadow powers".   I also think that it would be much more interesting for the setting if the hints that Void and Nothing are two aspects of the same thing, were actually and objectively true in the setting.

 

I don't expect the fundamental nature of the Nothing / Lying Darkness / Shadow to change, for either reason, just to appease me.

 

 

Similarly, no one should expect the fundamental nature of Jigoku or the cosmology of the setting to change in order to allow the Spider to be welcome in Rokugan while still actively acting as agents of and displaying the "favor" of Jigoku. 

 

 

Forgot to finish typing a sentence...

Edited by MaxKilljoy

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Similarly, no one should expect the fundamental nature of Jigoku or the cosmology of the setting to change in order to allow the Spider to be welcome in Rokugan while still actively acting as agents of and displaying the "favor" of Jigoku. 

 

 

Spider = Jigoku needs to be eradicated.  Each realm's favor can be sought out by any individual of any clan.  If all the clans can curry favor with Tengoku why should the setting not allow the same for Jigoku?  As has been mentioned previously the game/setting is not about existence vs. Jigoku.  The mentality that every action must be in opposition to Jigoku is the only reason this doesn't/can't work.  A fantasy setting that won't change the cosmology or setting just because "previous stuff" is contrary to "fantasy".  Static safety of the setting limits it especially when the general consensus is that the setting is borked.  I'm not advocating change to make Spider fit, I'm advocating change so everything fits and works.  If that means realigning or slaughtering sacred cows then bon appetit.

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Similarly, no one should expect the fundamental nature of Jigoku or the cosmology of the setting to change in order to allow the Spider to be welcome in Rokugan while still actively acting as agents of and displaying the "favor" of Jigoku. 

 

 

Spider = Jigoku needs to be eradicated.  Each realm's favor can be sought out by any individual of any clan.  If all the clans can curry favor with Tengoku why should the setting not allow the same for Jigoku?  As has been mentioned previously the game/setting is not about existence vs. Jigoku.  The mentality that every action must be in opposition to Jigoku is the only reason this doesn't/can't work.  A fantasy setting that won't change the cosmology or setting just because "previous stuff" is contrary to "fantasy".  Static safety of the setting limits it especially when the general consensus is that the setting is borked.  I'm not advocating change to make Spider fit, I'm advocating change so everything fits and works.  If that means realigning or slaughtering sacred cows then bon appetit.

 

 

It has nothing to do with "existence vs Jigoku" or "every action must be in opposition to Jigoku".

 

However, it's clear from every bit of what I've found to read about L5R's setting that Jigoku stands in opposition and contrast to everything that the Rokugani hold sacred, and seeks to consume every aspect of existence.  And there's nothing broken about that.

 

 

But the Spider don't have to = Jigoku... all they'd have to do is walk away from that connection.  Unfortunately, from what's been posted on the AEG forums and here, there are Spider players/fans who want to be able to serve the enemy of all that Rokugan holds sacred and right and moral, embrace the enemy's "blessings" in full... and still expect the rest of Rokugan to invite them to tea and kabuki.

Edited by MaxKilljoy

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Spider = Jigoku needs to be eradicated.  Each realm's favor can be sought out by any individual of any clan.          

 

Sure, no arguments here. There will always be a few people in every clan who seek out Jigoku's power.

 

 

If all the clans can curry favor with Tengoku why should the setting not allow the same for Jigoku?

 

 

Sure, they could do that, but they need to be discrete about it. The stigma of associating with Jigoku is important for balance reasons. After all, Tengoku offers no gifts to match the taint, and Maho is much more powerful than traditional magic.

 

 

As has been mentioned previously the game/setting is not about existence vs. Jigoku.

 

 

Obviously not. But the main story theads have been about Ningen-do vs. Jigoku, with the bulk of the empire on the side of Ningen-do, since they don't want the entire world to look like the Shadowlands.

 

 

The mentality that every action must be in opposition to Jigoku is the only reason this doesn't/can't work.

 

 

Every action? Of course not. But it's very fundamental to the setting that honorable samurai are supposed to oppose Jigoku, and the Emperor needs to at least maintain the appearance of being an honorable samurai.

 

 

A fantasy setting that won't change the cosmology or setting just because "previous stuff" is contrary to "fantasy".

 

 

Are you trying to say that continuity doesn't matter in fantasy settings? If so, then I couldn't disagree more.

 

 

Static safety of the setting limits it especially when the general consensus is that the setting is borked.

 

 

I'm not setting static safety limits. I'm arguing for resolving the Spider issues in the way that damages the lore the least. And I strongly disagree that the setting is borked. There are clearly issues, but the foundation of the setting is compelling. If it wasn't, it never would have attracted the fanatical following it has. Rewriting the foundations of the setting to fit in the Spider would be like tearing down your bedroom wall because you need a 2x4.  Even if that 2x4 is really important, there are better ways to get it.

 

 

I'm not advocating change to make Spider fit, I'm advocating change so everything fits and works.  If that means realigning or slaughtering sacred cows then bon appetit.

 

 

Sure, you could slaughter all the cows. You could change how honor works, change how Jigoku works, change how magic works, etc. But why? These are the things that built up the brand in the first place. Sometimes cows are sacred for a reason. Why slaughter a sacred cow when you could achieve the same effect by slaughtering a controversial cow instead? Or if possible, slaughtering nothing?

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I'm not advocating change to make Spider fit, I'm advocating change so everything fits and works.  If that means realigning or slaughtering sacred cows then bon appetit.

 

 

Sure, you could slaughter all the cows. You could change how honor works, change how Jigoku works, change how magic works, etc. But why? These are the things that built up the brand in the first place. Sometimes cows are sacred for a reason. Why slaughter a sacred cow when you could achieve the same effect by slaughtering a controversial cow instead? Or if possible, slaughtering nothing?

 

 

There has to be a bit of a balance when it comes to sacred cows.  I do agree that sacrificing too much of what AEG built up over the years would likely alienate the hardcore fans.  However, it is important to note the shrinking player base, coupled with the transition to an entirely new distribution model, does necessitate removing or revising certain elements of the game and universe in order to make it all work within FFG's plan for the IP and draw in new players.

 

Regarding the Spider, while I am a fan of the Spider, I would argue that they require more of a re-write in order to fit more cohesively into the setting, and the transition to another company and format offers the best opportunity to make those changes, allowing the Spider, in one form or another, to fit cohesively into the LCG and the game universe.

Edited by Osmo

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Similarly, no one should expect the fundamental nature of Jigoku or the cosmology of the setting to change in order to allow the Spider to be welcome in Rokugan while still actively acting as agents of and displaying the "favor" of Jigoku. 

 

 

Spider = Jigoku needs to be eradicated.  Each realm's favor can be sought out by any individual of any clan.  If all the clans can curry favor with Tengoku why should the setting not allow the same for Jigoku?  As has been mentioned previously the game/setting is not about existence vs. Jigoku.  The mentality that every action must be in opposition to Jigoku is the only reason this doesn't/can't work.  A fantasy setting that won't change the cosmology or setting just because "previous stuff" is contrary to "fantasy".  Static safety of the setting limits it especially when the general consensus is that the setting is borked.  I'm not advocating change to make Spider fit, I'm advocating change so everything fits and works.  If that means realigning or slaughtering sacred cows then bon appetit.

 

 

It has nothing to do with "existence vs Jigoku" or "every action must be in opposition to Jigoku".

 

However, it's clear from every bit of what I've found to read about L5R's setting that Jigoku stands in opposition and contrast to everything that the Rokugani hold sacred, and seeks to consume every aspect of existence.  And there's nothing broken about that.

 

 

But the Spider don't have to = Jigoku... all they'd have to do is walk away from that connection.  Unfortunately, from what's been posted on the AEG forums and here, there are Spider players/fans who want to be able to serve the enemy of all that Rokugan holds sacred and right and moral, embrace the enemy's "blessings" in full... and still expect the rest of Rokugan to invite them to tea and kabuki.

 

 

I see more association that Spider has to mean Jigoku than the opposite, and this usually comes from the anti-spider people. If people want to see less taint, it should be treated like every other dishonorable action in the fiction and lore: as something you don't want brought to light. There . If the Spider will be the top clan in power during the FFG release, then there should be more built in risk into taint or cards that use it. The same should be true for any dishonorable action.

 

It's already been brought up, but just do a shift in the way the clan actually does its business. The Daigotsu remain the leading faction but typically function as yojimbo and duelists. The Susumu family does the political stuff with Daigotsu backup. Finally, the Goju work behind the scene in the same fashion as the Shosuro  :ph34r:

 

Hell, the Scorpion are going to deny shinobi and ninja in every court and political situation but don't mind using them and other reprehensible method to ensure the Empire. I don't see people complaining that ninja or the Scorpions should be removed from the game.

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Becauseblove them or not, The Scorpion are part of a divine order. The Celestial Beauracracy. The Spider are not only "not" that, but are abhorrant to said Order and seek to overthrow basically anyone not Daigotsu Jigoku. That is the problem with Spider.

Again, they need a motivation other than sticking it to the Heavans. If that is the case, I would prefer the Kolat.

Edited by Sashmiel

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I see more association that Spider has to mean Jigoku than the opposite, and this usually comes from the anti-spider people. If people want to see less taint, it should be treated like every other dishonorable action in the fiction and lore: as something you don't want brought to light. There . If the Spider will be the top clan in power during the FFG release, then there should be more built in risk into taint or cards that use it. The same should be true for any dishonorable action.

 

It's already been brought up, but just do a shift in the way the clan actually does its business. The Daigotsu remain the leading faction but typically function as yojimbo and duelists. The Susumu family does the political stuff with Daigotsu backup. Finally, the Goju work behind the scene in the same fashion as the Shosuro  :ph34r:

 

Hell, the Scorpion are going to deny shinobi and ninja in every court and political situation but don't mind using them and other reprehensible method to ensure the Empire. I don't see people complaining that ninja or the Scorpions should be removed from the game.

 

 

 

Well, to recycle a turn of phrase I used in another thread just now...

 

Are most of the Scorpion servants of a corrupt, unclean power that wishes to undo everything that the Rokugani people have held dear for over 1000 years, to piss on everything sacred and bathe the world in blood and fire and ruin?

Edited by MaxKilljoy

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I see more association that Spider has to mean Jigoku than the opposite, and this usually comes from the anti-spider people. If people want to see less taint, it should be treated like every other dishonorable action in the fiction and lore: as something you don't want brought to light. There . If the Spider will be the top clan in power during the FFG release, then there should be more built in risk into taint or cards that use it. The same should be true for any dishonorable action.

 

It's already been brought up, but just do a shift in the way the clan actually does its business. The Daigotsu remain the leading faction but typically function as yojimbo and duelists. The Susumu family does the political stuff with Daigotsu backup. Finally, the Goju work behind the scene in the same fashion as the Shosuro  :ph34r:

 

Hell, the Scorpion are going to deny shinobi and ninja in every court and political situation but don't mind using them and other reprehensible method to ensure the Empire. I don't see people complaining that ninja or the Scorpions should be removed from the game.

 

 

 

Well, to recycle a turn of phrase I used in another thread just now...

 

Are most of the Scorpion servants of a corrupt, unclean power that wishes to undo everything that the Rokugani people have held dear for over 1000 years, to piss on everything sacred and bathe the world in blood and fire and ruin?

 

 

I'm sure some would spout out such comments in private but never in public.  ;)

 

Edit: I did forget the Spider monks which are typically apart from the taint if I remember the current rpg. They, and more exposure to Rogukan proper, can be a way to de-emphasize the whole taint thing. Hence a shift towards a different path of Enlightenment.

Edited by Kubernes

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For integrating the Spider? I think the first thing would be to "kill" Daigotsu.

 

OK let me explain.

 

 

Having what was essentially a mortal gain ultimate power over an entire realm (Jigoku), something not even a god could do (Fu-Leng), requires a hammer to suspend my disbelief on. However, just killing and replacing Daigotsu with some other random mook wouldn't solve the problem - would just change the problem's name.

I think a more elegant solution would be something akin to what happened in Naruto (using the spoiler tag, in case you're just familiar with the anime):

They reveal that the big baddie (Madara) was just getting used by the -real- big baddie (Kaguya), who takes over his body. We could have the same happen with Daigotsu thinking he was in control, only to being taken over by Jigoku, and ending up as just a puppet of the Jealous Realm. This would even hammer down the point that the Taint is Horror, and that you can't win against it.

 

Second thing would then be one of the three options in the OP. Personally, I prefer the return of the Horde - I like my L5R Evil to be alien and brutal and inhuman... with the evil being more in tones of gray and reserved for the simple humans in the other clans. Would also go hand-in-hand with the option inside the spoiler tag.

 

Finally, the remnants of the Spider that are non-Tainted/non-'Jigoku-y'.... such as the Susumu and the Monks? I could see the Susumu being either absorbed by the Scorpion (Meh!) or become a new Imperial Family (perhaps replacing the Otomo, who seem to be on the losing end of their conflict with the Crane?). Would work, given Susumu Shibatsu. The Monks could just be an independent faction, as all other monks in the setting.

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What is wrong is people trying to make the spider into something that they are not.

 

Wrong how?

 

Spider reverting to Shadowlands Horde?

Spider being the "anti-heroes with a heart of gold?"

Spider obtaining dominance over an evil realm?

Spider being an evil mastermind that finally gets to sit on the throne?

 

I don't quiet follow.

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