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cielago

Integrating the Spider

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Fu-Leng pulled Shinsei once. Make him protagonist leader of Spider Clan who shows Kanpeki faction that you don't need Taint to be strong and in fact, it makes you a slave. Or her. Reincarnate Fu-Leng into Fu-chan :P. "I came to fulfill my destiny of creating a Great Clan, which was taken away from me thousand years ago. But I didn't forget about you, Spider" or something.

I have a soft spot for Fu-Leng redemption stories.

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I always found Shourido really really boring...

 

 

Really? I'm the exact opposite. I think Shourido is the Spider's most interesting aspect, and the taint is less important. I'm not a Spider player, though, so take that for what it's worth.

 

Regarding the redemption of Fu Leng, Tengoku and Jikogu are theological opposites. Most of the storylines have been about Tengoku (well, mainly their proxies, really) resisting the expansion of Jikogu. It's the closest thing to a recurring theme the story of Rokugan has. With all of that, it seems highly unlikely that Tengoku would accept a tainted Fortune into their midst.

If the writers could figure out a plausible way to free Fu Leng from the taint, though, I'd be okay with it.

Regarding taint and the Spider, I'm not at all keen on forcing the rest of Rokugan to accept a group that's openly allied with Jigoku into their midst. (See the recurring theme, above.) I'd be fine with their taintedness if they lose their clan status, though. Or they can lose their taint and stay a great clan. But I think they should have to choose.

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Fu-Leng pulled Shinsei once. Make him protagonist leader of Spider Clan who shows Kanpeki faction that you don't need Taint to be strong and in fact, it makes you a slave. Or her. Reincarnate Fu-Leng into Fu-chan :P. "I came to fulfill my destiny of creating a Great Clan, which was taken away from me thousand years ago. But I didn't forget about you, Spider" or something.

I have a soft spot for Fu-Leng redemption stories.

Yeah, this was basically what I did for my pen & paper L5R RPG. Basically doing it like Star Wars did, having the child to redeem the father, and having a theme twice mighe Shakespeare loved to do, so I did that with Kanpeki for his father and I created Fu Ming and daughter of Fu Leng to redeem her father. I think that is what L5R lost over the years, the epic feel even in the very personal stories of characters.

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I'll start this by saying the Spider clan is the "fixed" shadowlands horde and interact with the game far better than its predecessor ever did. As such, I'm not in favor of bring back the shadowlands horde just because they are the standard bad guy. If people really want a bad guy faction besides the Spiders, they need someone who can do stuff besides military.

 

Yes, I know the Susumu family isn't an honor engine but its a step in the right direction.

 

Making the clan work requires the same thing that most other clans feature: diversity. Typically every clan's families played the game differently from each other. Just have the Spider move in three different directions: the Imperial section that plays more politically, the more "pure" shadowlands side that really likes dirty tricks and military actions, and a third faction that the players can decide where it goes. I'd start by saying the monks and sohei should be this faction in the clan starting out and are trying to do Enlightenment differently than the Phoenix and Dragon.

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I'll start this by saying the Spider clan is the "fixed" shadowlands horde and interact with the game far better than its predecessor ever did. 

 

this is an interesting point. while i think the spider are narratively more problematic, from a mechanical standpoint the shadowlands were a **** nightmare. perma-negative-19 honor meant they completely trashed one win condition, they couldn't achieve another. it was a VERY messy situation. and they had all the same problems with story time and prizes. so its not like going back is a golden bullet. 

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In terms of card game, I had mentioned the story disparity because while the setting is about empire vs jigoku the game is about clan vs clan. The setting and the story are not equivocal. Trying to reflect things would and do work well in the siege type formats, but L5R's tournament and standard card game structure are designed around a 1 vs 1 system. if FFG can come up with some type of infiltrator mechanic or some way to adequately represent the Spider/SLH in terms of a playable faction, if be mightily impressed. I just don't see the current status quo working.

Haven't there been some arcs which were more clan vs. clan? I mean, that's more resonant as a theme of samurai fiction, right?

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I'll start this by saying the Spider clan is the "fixed" shadowlands horde and interact with the game far better than its predecessor ever did. 

 

this is an interesting point. while i think the spider are narratively more problematic, from a mechanical standpoint the shadowlands were a **** nightmare. perma-negative-19 honor meant they completely trashed one win condition, they couldn't achieve another. it was a VERY messy situation. and they had all the same problems with story time and prizes. so its not like going back is a golden bullet. 

 

 

This is the crux of the dilemma.  

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I'll start this by saying the Spider clan is the "fixed" shadowlands horde and interact with the game far better than its predecessor ever did. 

 

this is an interesting point. while i think the spider are narratively more problematic, from a mechanical standpoint the shadowlands were a **** nightmare. perma-negative-19 honor meant they completely trashed one win condition, they couldn't achieve another. it was a VERY messy situation. and they had all the same problems with story time and prizes. so its not like going back is a golden bullet. 

 

 

This is the crux of the dilemma.  

 

 

I expect a soft reset in the story from FFG so wouldn't the Spider be in power? If so, you could merely adjust the narrative to suit that or change enough of it pending on how much time passes between the last AEG set and the FFG core set releases.

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Have we discussed Shourido yet? This is the element I like most about the Spider Clan: they've got this thing that, while not inherently of the Shadowlands, its philosophy twists and perverts the samurai code into something that takes the pedestal away from the Emperor and places it under oneself. If the Spider can "pull a Magneto" for long enough that the other Clans think of them as allies, they can then infect the Empire from within, by spreading lies and corruption that has nothing to do with Taint, and everything to do with unraveling the ethics that have kept Rokugan standing for twelve hundred years.

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Shourido is fun because it can be actually interesting and there is nothing stopping you from trying to combine it with Bushido. It's at it's best when it's used to comfort weaknesses and force other samurai out of their comfort zones, and probably could be used to improve the Empire by doing so. Kind of like how monks are expected to teach you a lesson, no matter how ridiculous the means may be.

I mean, Doji/Mirumoto Saori is quite awesome.

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I respected that the majority of the players wanted the horde like behavior back. And honestly those folks would leave the clan as they would be just monsters not samurai at that point. But those that remain already have an identity. Kicking them out just because they were once out and you don't agree with that storyline isn't gonna end any better than having gone back in time even further and not letting the Scorpion come back from the sands. The oh I hate them and don't want them around cross armed stance has been huge...and it really kept me from returning the game for five years. 

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Now, some might have argued that if SAA didn't exist Hordes would have won out massively, but that is mere speculation by this point and the numbers are as they fall. 

 

This thread generally is a mess of discussion that's already been had a thousand times, with a healthy mix of being extra useless since we have no idea what FFG is doing with the setting more broadly, so I'm mostly not interested. But the above is just wrong, so apparently I'm going to chime in at least on this because, while you're entitled to your own opinions, you are not entitled to your own facts. The Spider board polls from before the fan paths were added had Jigoku All The Way crushing Walk in the Light. Just crushing it. And the later polls showed that Shourido Above All's support almost entirely came from peeling votes off of Embrace the Darkness. So, no, it's not "mere speculation" that Embrace the Darkness would have won head-to-head. There is every reason to believe that Jigoku would have obliterated Walk in the Light if it had been head to head, and no reason at all to think otherwise.

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At this point, it's no longer about the whiners who are just angry about Spider taking up narrative space. It's about the fact that Kanpeki is a (Tainted) usurper in a world where they hold sway. I was okay with the Spider as a player faction up until this point, but with them in charge the game mechanics now have to support their greater ability to affect change in the world and that's just not good for a game, especially a game that desperately needed fresh blood.

 

You want to stay a Great Clan, fine. Be a Great Clan. You want to rule the Empire with the Taint? Stop expecting equal treatment.

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Shourido is a interesting aspect of the game of which spider made prominent, which is something I do like.

 

imho ( feel free to troll me though)

The creation of the spider became out of context once they became "acceptable" within Rokugani society.

However, they are here to stay, and they will influence the story regardless of whatever future awaits them.

 

I see the spider as a necessary evil, but you have another thing coming if you are going to label them as good guys.

They are a fine mix of your lawful and neutral evil. They will only do good as long as it is in line with their goals.

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At this point, it's no longer about the whiners who are just angry about Spider taking up narrative space. It's about the fact that Kanpeki is a (Tainted) usurper in a world where they hold sway. I was okay with the Spider as a player faction up until this point, but with them in charge the game mechanics now have to support their greater ability to affect change in the world and that's just not good for a game, especially a game that desperately needed fresh blood.

 

You want to stay a Great Clan, fine. Be a Great Clan. You want to rule the Empire with the Taint? Stop expecting equal treatment.

yeah, this is why the onyx move never made sense to me. i mean, theres a certain woo go team to kanpeki roflstomping everything, but practically speaking its just a disaster. mechanically it doesn't solving anything at all. we go from being awful to what? being so good that we can stomp all the other clans. wonderful. because we were so popular before. and the narrative complications are obvious. the whole move just stank of bad. i'm curious to see the cards, but i can't see i understand why the decision was made. even some of the AEG staff we talked to didn't sound like they understood why it was happening. 

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At this point, it's no longer about the whiners who are just angry about Spider taking up narrative space. It's about the fact that Kanpeki is a (Tainted) usurper in a world where they hold sway. I was okay with the Spider as a player faction up until this point, but with them in charge the game mechanics now have to support their greater ability to affect change in the world and that's just not good for a game, especially a game that desperately needed fresh blood.

 

You want to stay a Great Clan, fine. Be a Great Clan. You want to rule the Empire with the Taint? Stop expecting equal treatment.

 

You're more likely to see the clan's mechanics shift towards them having, keeping a hold of, and using/abusing their political power at the beginning. They feel like they might be the Baratheon faction at the outset then shift towards more military later on. I suspect the whole taint issue will be kept at a minimum in the actual game and more likely to be in the fiction and flavor text.

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Now, some might have argued that if SAA didn't exist Hordes would have won out massively, but that is mere speculation by this point and the numbers are as they fall. 

 

This thread generally is a mess of discussion that's already been had a thousand times, with a healthy mix of being extra useless since we have no idea what FFG is doing with the setting more broadly, so I'm mostly not interested. But the above is just wrong, so apparently I'm going to chime in at least on this because, while you're entitled to your own opinions, you are not entitled to your own facts. The Spider board polls from before the fan paths were added had Jigoku All The Way crushing Walk in the Light. Just crushing it. And the later polls showed that Shourido Above All's support almost entirely came from peeling votes off of Embrace the Darkness. So, no, it's not "mere speculation" that Embrace the Darkness would have won head-to-head. There is every reason to believe that Jigoku would have obliterated Walk in the Light if it had been head to head, and no reason at all to think otherwise.

 

 

If your talking about the original poll of our options (http://www.spiderclan.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1610), before we added Shourido, you'll find that the variance barely shifted as even then, before we even HAD the third option even conceived Hordes couldn't gain a +50% majority. There never was a Hordes vs. Walk flat out vote on the site, so again, its just assumption. Many players signed on to the "third option" blank space after they disliked the Hordes or Walk votes and then had SAA fill that void and suck other voters from the other two sides. After that Hordes never held the majority, or even the winning majority, on the boards. Only after the final voting, beating out SAA by a few points.

 

So no, I hold my point, but thanks anyway.

Edited by TheItsyBitsySpider

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for the love of little onis, let this thread please not degenerate into a walk the light grievance airing. theres literally no profit at all in going down that road. that way lies the unfun kind of madness, where everyone ends up comparing how they add up to 100 and no one is right

Edited by cielago

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Starting fresh with the LCG, Jigoku/Taint could be made part of the Celestial Order.  An element of the world that must exist in balance with the rest.  You can make it that Iweko upset this balance and to right it Tengoku and Jigoku bless Kanpeki's ascension to Emperor (wed to Miaka).  No seals being broken, no conjoined realms, and a reason for tainted folk to exist within Rokugan and not as death demanding pariah.  The Crab & Scorpion still have their walls to hold against the tainted nonhuman elements. You could also clean up the redemption/cleansing stuff that popped up out of nowhere and replace it with a single process that was discovered through thousands of years of experience and investigation by the Asako/Kuni/whoever else.  No more miraculous cures that are discovered in 2 days that couldn't be found in 1k.

 

Another possibility is to give each major realm a Kami leader instead of 7 in Tengoku and 1 in Jigoku.  

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I like the return of Fu-chan. Kenpeki has a little daughter after all.

 

I want to explain why I found Shourido on its own so boring.

I have always seen its main strength as the corrupted mirror of Bushido, mainly practiced by the Lost which were all tainted.

The the taint warps your understanding of the virtues.

 

Without the Taint Shourido is just a second philosophy, that many pointed out can be combined with Bushido.

But with the Taint is becomes a dark mirror of every Samurai ones the taint gets hold of him.

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If the spider won't cease to be evil, why would the empire continue to afford them the status of great clan? That's the issue. You want the Daigotsu party train. The reason why it's a non starter for a part of the anti spider is that having your cake and eating it too pisses of just about everyone else. You can still be A faction, just not one That gets an imperial charter, and not one that receives an imbalanced amount of story love.

And for the record, never holding up your end of the bargain(what Daigotsu did) is WAAAAY bigger of a betrayal than revoking kanpeki's championship ever could be.

 

He held up his end of the bargain: killed himself and took down kali ma. Not his fault that made him lord Jigoku. ;)

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Kicking them out just because they were once out and you don't agree with that storyline isn't gonna end any better than having gone back in time even further and not letting the Scorpion come back from the sands. The oh I hate them and don't want them around cross armed stance has been huge...and it really kept me from returning the game for five years.

I guess when going to an earlier period was discussed, I was thinking it'd be so far back that the Scorpion were playable, but the Unicorn had yet to appear in Rokugan. And as a Unicorn player I would be very interested to play in a time just before they make their grand return. (And then have them return so I can play as them, dammit.)

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If the spider won't cease to be evil, why would the empire continue to afford them the status of great clan? That's the issue. You want the Daigotsu party train. The reason why it's a non starter for a part of the anti spider is that having your cake and eating it too pisses of just about everyone else. You can still be A faction, just not one That gets an imperial charter, and not one that receives an imbalanced amount of story love.

And for the record, never holding up your end of the bargain(what Daigotsu did) is WAAAAY bigger of a betrayal than revoking kanpeki's championship ever could be.

 

He held up his end of the bargain: killed himself and took down kali ma. Not his fault that made him lord Jigoku. ;)

You don't just trip, fall down and become the Supreme ruler of hell. They eventually back pedaled and hinted he may not have 100% control, but for a good long while they really hammered home the fact that he conquered jigoku completely and utterly in a way even Fu Leng never could.

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