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cielago

Integrating the Spider

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If they dont go with the Onyx plot, which I hope they dont... Onyx would be a terrible intro to the setting for new players, then they can have the Spider as they were up to twenty festivals, a clan of dishonorable samurai that care little for the virtues of honor but instead value personal power and ambition. Think scorpion, but being a military clan instead of a political and none of that "we protect the throne" nonsense, they are, at least on the individual level, in it for themselves. 

 

In truth they could simply be a dark mirror of the lion. Story kept pushing them as "Shadowlands but not"  during emperor which kept missing the easy way of doing it by just describing them as "Dishonorable Samurai". They are the servants of the descendant of the dark lord, the conquerors, and major power, of the colonies, and the masters of the dark path of shourido, which is the path of self. They value power and care little about the methods used to attain it. They care little for the honor of others and suffer the advantages, and flaws, of holding such a view.  Their presence in the main empire is smaller, but as a clan they are tolerated, not just for the deal with the devil but for the endless goods shipped from the lands conquered by them. The fact that they are mostly in the colonies keeps them both safe from repercussions of some of their more devious actions, but also limits their plans in the empire directly. The distance that the colonies and the Empire has is an easy tool to keep them in line from a story setting, leaving them with a few port sitties in the main empire and ensuring their armies cant just march and cause a ruckus. Their thoughts and issues are constantly drawn to lands they seek to conquer and, like the unicorn, could become more cautious of the outside threats, except instead of meeting gaijin with compassion they meet them with the xenophobic sword that rokugan is known for. 

 

Let a few clans have reasons to keep them around, like Crane, who are happy to trade for the exotic and beautifu, not caring for the Spider's ways because they are so far in the colonies. Let the Mantis, with their ports and trading, find a strong relationship with the Spider like we have been having for the past few years. Have the Unicorn see them as another clan that understands the threat of the Gaijun and share the vast lands of the colonies with them, like we have had for a while as well. 

 

Spider works fine if you just tone down the "omg eat babies" view that, funny enough, they haven't had for the past few years anyway. Until Twenty Festivals the Great Clan Spider have simply effected and manipulated the empire through mostly political methods, the Susumu gaining an insanely close bond with the Imperials and the heirs conflict were both Spider plots to effect the empire. Hell Kanpeki's plot to take the throne didn't even involve armies, just marrying his kids into the Empire's royal line. Its why the rush into the Onyx plot angered a lot of Spider players as Kanpeki giving up and tainting everything seemed actually out of character.

 

 Spider can still have evil plots, but they are more subtle and interesting and if we want a game with samurai clans infighting as its purpose then keeping spider is perfectly fine. People overact to the spider in a setting where Kisada broke every oath and the entire point of his clan and walked away pretty much with no consequences while the Great Clan Spider for the most part never got close to that kind of nonsense, the worst we had was the ninja, and they were pretty much in the same boat as the Scorpion, no one knew so it didn't matter. Besides that we have the tainted, mostly dying off, the Sohei without their corruption, the new generation of Daigotsu Bushi like Atsushi and Takahide, and the Susumu courtiers that exist with massive clout and ties to the more powerful families in the empire, making them difficult to reproach. Spider could have interesting roles, like cruel but efficient magistrates, mighty conquering armies,

 

Talking about crab, the whole crab vs spider thing is just too pushed. Turn on the pits again and let the crab be too busy with their wall to care. I'm freaking tired of the plot of crab CONSTANTLY trying to fight the spider, its just boring by this point. Spider's perfect foil in the empire is lion, not crab. Crab and spider atre too similar as pragmatic military factions, one is defensive and good, the other offensive and bad, to really create that drastic contrast that rivals should have. These factions have next to no reason to interact in the ways they do if the pit was operational so they just need to retcon the deal or alter it in a way to allow the pits to remain active. The crab was made for holding the wall against armies of monsters, give them back their monsters and move on.  

 

Spider, as a great clan, could be a perfectly fine and enjoyable faction. people just need to stop harping on poor story choices made years ago by the formal owners. This setting really lacks real "evil samurai" without them. The scorpion are villainous, but only as part of their act and are really "loyal to the throne". The Mantis are gung ho more then villianous and all of the other clans are only villainous when taken to their ultimate extremes. Spider can fill the role as the basic evil samurai, an easy message for both new and old players.

 

Shadowland Hordes would be more interesting in my opinion if they found a way to make it into seige style decks, which have been shown to be really fun and interesting. that way they can make Shadowlands as strong as they want, create an interesting story adventure through its cards and deck, without worrying about factional balances or problems with stories, just make it known that, when the Oni roll in, the empire unites, hell even the spider as what good is an empire of ashes. That way the major Big Bad factions, be it Jigoku, Yodetai, Kolat, or otherwise can be exactly that, BIG and interesting, released as expansions and adventure sets while there remains the ability to just have the clans pit fight one another. 

 

Setting that up would only require simple changes to Daigotsu and how he rules the realm of evil, make him go the way of Fu Leng, and become a mad, dark God and let Kanpeki learn that, perfect reason to have Spider and Jigoku not always team up and even be opposed. 

 

 

 

Go back to the SH, the vote showed that given the choice the majority of Spider players prefer to BE the Shadowland Horde that a great clan. 

 

 

 

But it didn't... at all. In fact it showed only that 41% of the Spider wanted the only path that made them hordes. The other two option (consisting of two different paths that both ended with fighting Jigoku and not returning to hordes) collectively held 59% of the vote. There is no way to interpret that the MAJORITY of spider fans wanted to go back to hordes based on those numbers. If that is how we are classifying these numbers (Becoming hordes vs not hordes) then the correct way to view them is that more then half wanted to NOT be hordes. 

 

The story path votes for the clans led to choices that did NOT hold the majority of the clan's overall votes for all of them. Every winning vote had less then the majority of those fan bases supporting it. They really all should have been 2 options each and just judged it based off of that. 

 

Now, some might have argued that if SAA didn't exist Hordes would have won out massively, but that is mere speculation by this point and the numbers are as they fall. 

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I think that integrating the Shadowlands into the Empire was a good decision from a setting standpoint, since it let other clans besides the Crab contribute against the bad guys. The Crane in particular needed the help, since the Shadowlands Horde didn't care one whit about courtier ability. Giving the Shadowlands a great clan, though, was a mistake.

 

Here's my idea: let the Spider continue to call themselves a clan, but in actuality they function more as a conspiracy, like the Kholat. They would have people in other clans that are secretly loyal to the Spider, either because they were raised Spider, or they're being blackmailed, or they're being controlled by old-style taint, etc. This would enable the Spider to stay involved with the goings-on in the Empire, without the wallbanger of Jigoku having an accepted presence in Rokugan.

 

Mechanically, rather than being an independent faction, the Spider would be a modification of existing factions. If you want to play Spider, you choose another clan to "infiltrate", and play that faction, but with extra Spider cards available. You'd be playing as "Webbed Lion", or "Corrupted Lion", or whatever. To keep things balanced, every faction would also have some cards unplayable by Spiders, via an "Incorruptible" keyword, for instance.

 

I realize this would be hell to balance, but it would eliminate the 8v1 problem, since the bad guys would effectively get just as many factions as the good guys.

Edited by Fumi

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I think that integrating the Shadowlands into the Empire was a good decision from a setting standpoint, since it let other clans besides the Crab contribute against the bad guys. The Crane in particular needed the help, since the Shadowlands Horde didn't care one whit about courtier ability. Giving the Shadowlands a great clan, though, was a mistake. Here's my idea: let the Spider continue to call themselves a clan, but in actuality they function more as a conspiracy, like the Kholat. They would have people in other clans that are secretly loyal to the Spider, either because they were raised Spider, or they're being blackmailed, or they're being controlled by old-style taint, etc. This would enable the Spider to stay involved with the goings-on in the Empire, without the wallbanger of Jikogu having an accepted presence in Rokugan. Mechanically, rather than being an independent faction, the Spider would be a modification of existing factions. If you want to play Spider, you choose another clan to "infiltrate", and play that faction, but with extra Spider cards available. You'd be playing as "Webbed Lion", or "Corrupted Lion", or whatever. To keep things balanced, every faction would also have some cards unplayable by Spiders, via an "Incorruptible" keyword, for instance. I realize this would be hell to balance, but it would eliminate the 8v1 problem, since the bad guys would effectively get just as many factions as the good guys.

 

This is actually an interesting idea. I was frankly kind of surprised that of all the clans to get blown up, it was the Mantis. I thought the idea of a layover stronghold or sensei or whatever they were gonna do was brilliant... if you were shadowlands. i could see that working for spider/horde/whatever. 

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If Kanpeki does becomes Emperor and Imperial is basically the new Spider Clan and you can simply make an Imperial faction instead of the Spider

 

The second option would be to make it the Shadowlands Horde again, and this time you could simply add Shadowlands is your Clan Alignment and you do not loose honor from Shadowlands cards you own.

 

However if you really want a Spider Clan as a proper clan, you need a celestial mandate for them. Something they are meant to do in the Empire.

Conqueror was a thing but I think a more permanent would be good. Here would be one option:

  1. Make the Clan smaller, only 4 families. My pick would be Daigotsu, Susumu, Chuda and the Monks (and give them a name Kokujin or Fu Leng, if you want to go for the founding Kami)
  2. The Shadow Dragon breaks free and calls the Goju and Ninube to leave the Spider.
  3. And then you have their mandate: Protect Rokugan against the Lying Darkness, the same way the Crab protect Rokugan against the Shadowlands.

What about the taint and maho?

Well since their enemy can manipulate the taint rather freely, the Spider are allowed to be tainted.

Therefore the use of Maho is not prohibited, since they will probably be tainted anyway during their duty anyway

 

What would that archive?

The Spider would play and integral role in Rokugan. They would protect the world against being unmade.

Kanpeki wants to rule. The total destruction of the world is not in his interest.

It also would allow the Spider to be tainted a rather important thing since their founder is the boss of Jigoku.

Oni and Ogre would still be a separate faction running against the wall and give the Crab something to do.

And you have a big bad which is lurking in the shadows waiting for his chance to strike.

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I can potentially dig Spider as the anti-ninja faction, but the problem with rolling Kanpeki as emperor and the spider getting a free taint pass is you've effectively eliminated the big bad in rokugan, AND installed a SLH corrupted leader. It's no longer shadowlands vs the empire. Shadowlands IS the empire.

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I can potentially dig Spider as the anti-ninja faction, but the problem with rolling Kanpeki as emperor and the spider getting a free taint pass is you've effectively eliminated the big bad in rokugan, AND installed a SLH corrupted leader. It's no longer shadowlands vs the empire. Shadowlands IS the empire.

 

yeah, its a bit "cake and eat it too". i really like the notion in general, but i think there has to be a great give back. if i were doing a spider as a great clan vs the shadow, you know what i'd do? i'd have the shadow dragon take Kanpeki as its host. Make him the champion of the Goju. So the spider suddenly lose not just their champion, but the Son of their Dark Lord. You could either kill off his daughter in the same even that resulted in this, or have her as a child, not yet ready to take over. Either way, the spider are PISSED and would finally have a reason to get on board alongside the clans, a real reason. 

 

edit: i forgot to add, i think this MIGHT be a way to let the spider keep the taint, as it would pretty effectively leash them to the empire, but even then i think its iffy. you might still have to have the spider forswear it. i think the last few years have shown that its just too much to ask the clans or their players to chill with tainted spider and be cool with it. 

Edited by cielago

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I'll try to summarize the ideas so far:

1) Keep the Spider/Shadowlands as the game's big bad, by axing their clan status. This comes in two flavors so far:
    a) Return to being the Shadowlands Horde.
    b) Make the Spider into an illegal conspiracy.

2) Demote the Spider from big bad and let them stay a great clan. The flavors:
    a) Divorce the Spider from Jikogu, letting them be mundane villains instead of infernal ones.
    b) Give the Empire an even bigger threat that makes Jigoku seem less bad in comparison. The Nothing jumps out as the obvious candidate.

Have I missed anything?

Edited by Fumi

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That's about it thus far unless I missed something. I'm personally very concerned about suggestion 2B though. While the injection of a new big bad could infuse some life into the story, if the lying darkness(and wasn't riproaringly successful the first run) isn't well received(or even if it is) and FFG needs an exit strategy, you've basically upended one of the biggest dynamics of the setting just so one faction could keep its toys. Yodotai could also work, but I don't know how far the IP extends and how well received such a non magic samurai element would work.

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That's about it thus far unless I missed something. I'm personally very concerned about suggestion 2B though. While the injection of a new big bad could infuse some life into the story, if the lying darkness(and wasn't riproaringly successful the first run) isn't well received(or even if it is) and FFG needs an exit strategy, you've basically upended one of the biggest dynamics of the setting just so one faction could keep its toys. Yodotai could also work, but I don't know how far the IP extends and how well received such a non magic samurai element would work.

 

But you'd be okay if the lion suddenly weren't master tacticians, i'm sure. Or if the crab were no longer strong. Or if the unicorn didn't have horses. thats fine, i'm sure. These aren't toys. its the identity of the spider, and it shouldn't be dismissed as if the fans are a bunch of petulant children who refuse to play nicely. no faction wants to be eliminated. why is that hard for people to grasp? 

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I agree with you. Plus, do we really want every story arc to face an existential threat? It could never win, since that would mean the end of the setting. And a villain that everyone knows can't win will become boring very quickly.

 

Edit: I was agreeing with Neckbeard-san, two posts above.

Edited by Fumi

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I agree with you. Plus, do we really want every story arc to face an existential threat? It could never win, since that would mean the end of the setting. And a villain that everyone knows can't win will become boring very quickly.

This is the real headache with integrating the Spider- because their entire schtick is tied to the story's original existential bug-a-boo.Even if they just stand there and chew gum, they're a gigantic,"Hey, remember this?!" sign.

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That's about it thus far unless I missed something. I'm personally very concerned about suggestion 2B though. While the injection of a new big bad could infuse some life into the story, if the lying darkness(and wasn't riproaringly successful the first run) isn't well received(or even if it is) and FFG needs an exit strategy, you've basically upended one of the biggest dynamics of the setting just so one faction could keep its toys. Yodotai could also work, but I don't know how far the IP extends and how well received such a non magic samurai element would work.

 

But you'd be okay if the lion suddenly weren't master tacticians, i'm sure. Or if the crab were no longer strong. Or if the unicorn didn't have horses. thats fine, i'm sure. These aren't toys. its the identity of the spider, and it shouldn't be dismissed as if the fans are a bunch of petulant children who refuse to play nicely. no faction wants to be eliminated. why is that hard for people to grasp?

If I felt it was in the best interest of the setting, yes. I was a Naga player, and am a Naga player at heart. I reluctantly accepted the ACTUAL elimination of my faction because it was for the most part, the best course of action. I'm not calling anyone petulant. I am however, astonished at the numerous ways some players try and reskin the have your cake and eat it too argument.

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I agree with you. Plus, do we really want every story arc to face an existential threat? It could never win, since that would mean the end of the setting. And a villain that everyone knows can't win will become boring very quickly.

This is the real headache with integrating the Spider- because their entire schtick is tied to the story's original existential bug-a-boo.Even if they just stand there and chew gum, they're a gigantic,"Hey, remember this?!" sign.

 

 

Sorry, I was unclear. I was trying to spell out the problems with using the Nothing as a recurring villain. If Jikogu won it would have major repercussions within the setting, but the setting could still go on. Daigotsu, for instance, was allowed to score a few partial victories at least.

 

Not so with the Nothing. If it wins, the setting's gone. Thus, everyone knows it won't win.

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I agree with you. Plus, do we really want every story arc to face an existential threat? It could never win, since that would mean the end of the setting. And a villain that everyone knows can't win will become boring very quickly.

This is the real headache with integrating the Spider- because their entire schtick is tied to the story's original existential bug-a-boo.Even if they just stand there and chew gum, they're a gigantic,"Hey, remember this?!" sign.

 

given that there have been, what, six or seven existential bug-a-boos since then, one can make the argument that, hey, maybe rokugan should get over it. especially since Daigotsu helped save Rokugan's bacon from the last one, and was instrumental in helping deal with another (Iuchiban)

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Yes, let's keep beating the Destroyer War drum, since everybody loved that one so very, very much.

Gp4 wasn't as popular with everyone else was it was with us?

 

:mellow:

 

in any case, i think the point above about the nothing is well made. its hard to have a villain that can't win without the game being moot. but i do like the idea of motivating the spider into aligning with Rokugan by corrupting, killing, or otherwise breaking its line back to Daigotsu. Putting the Heir of Daigotsu is very much central to the identity of the spider as a Clan. Screwing with that would be a powerful motivator. 

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I think it would have been rather easy to make the spider part of Rogugan in a meaningful way.

 

The Spider are not villains, there are different, they are basically more or less like early christianity durring the roman empire. I mean there are religious folks who have a set of morals that do not fit the the rest of society and they have a saviour figure. And I think there starts already the first problem, Shourido should not be seen as egostically for the sack of only seeing oneself, but more as one has to be the best one can be to keep the family alive, so it is more of an capitalistic mentality and not an hedonistic one, like it feels so many people seem to think it is, which means it is as much about being social as Bushido is (Nash Equilibrium kind of capaitalism). And it has to be that way, the weak in Spider meant that they put everybody at risk, when they were still living in the middle of the shadowlands, there was no option to just do your own thing and ignore all others, since the group is a strength in itself.

 

So, you have to think about the Spider as a group of people who have issues with the people around them, and villifying them doesn't help. That is where in my opinion Iweko failed, she was too stupid to understand how to welcome these people and use their views to strengthen the empire. I have a fix for my personal RPG Rokugan, where I simply gave Fu-Leng when he was mortal a daughter, who later visted one day the empress and talked with her and together they created a third Tao, which unites Bushido and Shourido (which is easy, if you see them both as social conduct and not as egoism vs altruism). But I guess it is too late for that in proper L5R. Anyway, the important thing would be that the two philosophies find the common ground and thus the Spider can become part of the culture, and when they arive, they will automatically reduce the use of oni, since they very well know how destructive they are.

 

This leads us to Kanpeki, I think AEG had wasted a huge opportunity for story potential there. Look, his father was a charismatic leader that could unite all those downtrodden folks at the edge of the empire who barely could survive and forged them into a clan and later even become somewhat of  god. How do one live up to that legacy? Anyway, I want him to become emperor and then continue the work of his father and unite very different people under him, and just like his father he could see some competition between the people under him as good for the empire, so basically use a divide and conquer method to keep the land under his control, while keeping the clans busy to focus their energy against each other. And for that reason, he would be a very recluded emperor, almost like Iweko was described too, only that he does that to be out of the focus of attention. And that again means he would have to stop dealing with Oni.

 

The Spider and Kanpeki should be separarted, almost like the Baratheons in A song of Ice and Fire, you got the throne, but also had still family lands. I would say the Spider should have most of the lands in the colonies, so that they are away and out of sight from most other clans, but still a powerful player. And with a big enough time jump the history of how much dabbling the clan did with oni could become almost forgotten, and they could be seen as just another clan. With their monks, and their dark fortunes and thus things they still could keep a flavout of the religious zeolots, that no other clan has in that way.

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Yes, let's keep beating the Destroyer War drum, since everybody loved that one so very, very much.

Gp4 wasn't as popular with everyone else was it was with us?

 

:mellow:

 

in any case, i think the point above about the nothing is well made. its hard to have a villain that can't win without the game being moot. but i do like the idea of motivating the spider into aligning with Rokugan by corrupting, killing, or otherwise breaking its line back to Daigotsu. Putting the Heir of Daigotsu is very much central to the identity of the spider as a Clan. Screwing with that would be a powerful motivator. 

 

 

The Nothing has always felt best suited for the RPG to me.  I love the Nothing, its one of my favorite things in the setting and its perfect for smaller scale personal stories like Kitsuki Kaagi, but for reasons you stated it makes for a poor main antagonist.

 

As for your original question, I'd go Option 2.  I'd like to see the Spider return to the Shadowlands Horde with the Daigotsu and Chuda becoming the Lost again.  However the Spider Monks and Susumu should stick around in some form so long as their abandon any ties to Jigoku.

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I agree with you. Plus, do we really want every story arc to face an existential threat? It could never win, since that would mean the end of the setting. And a villain that everyone knows can't win will become boring very quickly.

This is the real headache with integrating the Spider- because their entire schtick is tied to the story's original existential bug-a-boo.Even if they just stand there and chew gum, they're a gigantic,"Hey, remember this?!" sign.

given that there have been, what, six or seven existential bug-a-boos since then, one can make the argument that, hey, maybe rokugan should get over it. especially since Daigotsu helped save Rokugan's bacon from the last one, and was instrumental in helping deal with another (Iuchiban)

Which six or seven? iuchiban and his rain of blood put Taint front and center. Kali Ma conquered jigoku and the taint and shadowlands in general was very much still in play during the destroyer war. The dark oracles are jigoku corrupted doppelgängers. Pretty much the only big bads that didn't ultimately just lead back to jigoku were the lying darkness, chagatai, and P'an ku. The taint is the blight of jigoku on ones soul. That's why having it be the core focus of a clan isn't the best idea. Shourido? Sure. Evil? You betcha. Taint? Not so much,

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I think that integrating the Shadowlands into the Empire was a good decision from a setting standpoint, since it let other clans besides the Crab contribute against the bad guys. The Crane in particular needed the help, since the Shadowlands Horde didn't care one whit about courtier ability. Giving the Shadowlands a great clan, though, was a mistake.

 

Here's my idea: let the Spider continue to call themselves a clan, but in actuality they function more as a conspiracy, like the Kholat. They would have people in other clans that are secretly loyal to the Spider, either because they were raised Spider, or they're being blackmailed, or they're being controlled by old-style taint, etc. This would enable the Spider to stay involved with the goings-on in the Empire, without the wallbanger of Jigoku having an accepted presence in Rokugan.

 

Mechanically, rather than being an independent faction, the Spider would be a modification of existing factions. If you want to play Spider, you choose another clan to "infiltrate", and play that faction, but with extra Spider cards available. You'd be playing as "Webbed Lion", or "Corrupted Lion", or whatever. To keep things balanced, every faction would also have some cards unplayable by Spiders, via an "Incorruptible" keyword, for instance.

 

I realize this would be hell to balance, but it would eliminate the 8v1 problem, since the bad guys would effectively get just as many factions as the good guys.

 

This is what they should have done at the end of the Race for the Throne.  Since the Spider were the ones who "lost their clan status" they should have been disbanded as a faction.  Then print a boatload of cards across all factions that have the Spider Clan and Infiltrator traits.  Make these cards sufficiently powerful that they are tempting to use.  Then whenever a faction wins using a certain number of those cards, for example the old rules for a tainted deck was something like four or five cards, that win would also be credited to the Spider.  The sometime into the next arc, boom drop a stronghold and all the Spiders come home with storyline implications to the clans that relied on the Spider for earlier wins.

 

But no, we got Daigotsu Super-Star.

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I always found Shourido really really boring...

And ultimately the Taint is the important part of which needs to be represented.

 

Either due to the Horde, the Spider Clan or something different.  

I think the Lost are an important concept and the Spider started out as the Clan of that Lost. Which is a great idea... It was just terribly executed.

 

Just thinking about. Did Fu Leng rise to Tengoku? I think not, but when that would happen the Spider would have all the legitimacy they need, without changing much.

And don't say that can never happen... Sun and Moon changed two times. The second time for no apparent reason.

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I always found Shourido really really boring...

And ultimately the Taint is the important part of which needs to be represented.

 

Either due to the Horde, the Spider Clan or something different.  

I think the Lost are an important concept and the Spider started out as the Clan of that Lost. Which is a great idea... It was just terribly executed.

 

Just thinking about. Did Fu Leng rise to Tengoku? I think not, but when that would happen the Spider would have all the legitimacy they need, without changing much.

And don't say that can never happen... Sun and Moon changed two times. The second time for no apparent reason.

I look at it exactly from the opposite direction. I think the Shourido should be the important part, so that taint is still more common with the spider, but it is not what should define them, since if if does, you still have them as the villains and thus as the opposition to the other clans. And I think Fu Leng should be returned to Tengoku for the sacrifice he did and legitimise the Spider that way, as a clan that has a founding Kami. But yes, I agree the idea of the Clan of the Lost was terrible done, since AEG never spend a miniute to think what that actually means, but used them just as your villains of the week.

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I always found Shourido really really boring...

And ultimately the Taint is the important part of which needs to be represented.

 

Either due to the Horde, the Spider Clan or something different.  

I think the Lost are an important concept and the Spider started out as the Clan of that Lost. Which is a great idea... It was just terribly executed.

 

Just thinking about. Did Fu Leng rise to Tengoku? I think not, but when that would happen the Spider would have all the legitimacy they need, without changing much.

And don't say that can never happen... Sun and Moon changed two times. The second time for no apparent reason.

 

I think Shourido is interesting only insomuch as its a reflection of Bushido within the Lost. On its own, i think its less interesting. As far as Fu Leng goes, we never got any answers there. We know he died, and gave up his power to Daigotsu. We don't know if he was completely consumed in that process and has merged somehow with Daigotsu (which i doubt), went to Tengoku (equally unlikely), or went to Jigoku (which seems like the right answer, but then why wouldn't he be palling around with his Little Brother? you think he'd be an ideal candidate for Dark Fortunehood). I doubt he just went poof. 

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