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Kasuvari

Playing without a Core Set (or, my problems with the new damage deck)

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I have less than zero sympathy for someone who wants to play something competitively in sanctioned and sponsored events who whines (incessantly) about how unfair life is that once every three years they have to pony up $35 for new bits and pieces.  Even less sympathy than that for people who feel obligated to tell other companies how to run their business when they (a) seem to have no clue about basic economics and (b) cannot possibly know all the inside facts that govern FFGs decisions.  It's all internet wankery of the most pathetic sort.

 

Don't like it/can't afford it/want to stand on some absurd sense of principle?  Fine, don't play competitive sanctioned events.  You can play your existing stuff until entropy overtakes the universe and no one is going to take it away from you.

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I've never seen one of these posts complaining about the original core set. Either you have a problem with core sets and damage decks or you don't, you can't legitimately complain about the new one just because you already own the old one. If you really had issue with this where's your 'why do I have to buy the original core set, I just want the hounds tooth' post?

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Given only a vocal minority have a problem with this... yeah.

 

My mindset: sooo, new core sets, new ships, new upgrades, a few asteroids and new damage packs... well if i I do want to tourney those packs will be nice, and well i like the other stuff. <goes and buys two>.

 

It was never OMG I am forced to spend under 50 bucks to keep my list relevant, oh woe is me.

 

If you are playing casual it doesn't even matter.

If you are playing tourny, it's STILL CHEAPER THAN ALMOST EVERY OTHER TOURNEY GAME OUT THERE JESUS STOP WHINING.

 

Ahem, sorry. I paid $60 can on a space marine codex for 6th for it to be out of date within like a year and a half. Just saying. That's just a book with pretty pics and rules. That's not even the new wonderful overkill units like centurions, over $100 CAN before paint and glue and the work that goes into them. Then the rulebooks themselves are like $50 can, need those...

 

I just spent less than 100 canuckian groats on 4 new TIE's 2 new x-wings, and the rest of the above. including the always wanted for larger/party games more range sticks and dice.

 

I truly fail to see why the concern blatant whining. If this makes me an FFG fanboy I am kinda fine with that, myself. I prefer the term perspective.

I don't like the mindset of comparing X-wing to other games. It confuses the issue.

 

I would be OK if FFG just said, "this is X-wing 2.0 and you will need to update to play." Instead, they say that it is not a rewrite and that the original is still valid... but it soon will not be. All I am asking is for some 2nd option to buying the core all over again.

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Having to update ONE element of the original Core Set is not invalidating the whole thing. 

 

And I can bet all of you wanting the deck sold seperately will complain when it is $10. And since it would be POD, more complaints about how the deck isn't as good quality as those in the core. And less online discounts. 

Edited by Sithborg

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Without something to compare with, how can you gain perspective?

 

What if for example I wanted to back in wave 4 just run a Defender list.

because I was a TIE Fighter Fanboy? Can't just buy 3 defenders can I? Nope Need a core set for all the templates, damage decks, tokens, rangefinders, dice etc.

 

OMGZ they are forcing me to buy a core set.

 

Give me a break mate.

 

Added to bonuses for getting more core sets: more maneuver templates - ALWAYS WELCOME

 

The nearest you'll get to me agreeing with you on this is saying

Eh, the advanced fix probably didn't have to be bundled with their most expensive ship so far, and I admit not everyone likes epic.

 

I'll grant you that, that alone.

 

It didn't effect me in the slightest as Epic is where it's at for me. But, I can see how people could get hurt over it.

Edited by DariusAPB

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It has been said enough but I'll toss some nails in the coffin. Tournament players can reasonably be expected to buy a new core set and are the ones required to have the new damage deck to play. If you don't play in tournaments then it doesn't matter! Use the old deck for casual. Do as many others have suggested and sell the other stuff if you absolutely don't want/need the ships that come in the core. You don't need a core set to play... except tournaments.

 

P.S. Draconian? WTF man it is a GAME!

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Given only a vocal minority have a problem with this... yeah.

 

My mindset: sooo, new core sets, new ships, new upgrades, a few asteroids and new damage packs... well if i I do want to tourney those packs will be nice, and well i like the other stuff. <goes and buys two>.

 

It was never OMG I am forced to spend under 50 bucks to keep my list relevant, oh woe is me.

 

If you are playing casual it doesn't even matter.

If you are playing tourny, it's STILL CHEAPER THAN ALMOST EVERY OTHER TOURNEY GAME OUT THERE JESUS STOP WHINING.

 

Ahem, sorry. I paid $60 can on a space marine codex for 6th for it to be out of date within like a year and a half. Just saying. That's just a book with pretty pics and rules. That's not even the new wonderful overkill units like centurions, over $100 CAN before paint and glue and the work that goes into them. Then the rulebooks themselves are like $50 can, need those...

 

I just spent less than 100 canuckian groats on 4 new TIE's 2 new x-wings, and the rest of the above. including the always wanted for larger/party games more range sticks and dice.

 

I truly fail to see why the concern blatant whining. If this makes me an FFG fanboy I am kinda fine with that, myself. I prefer the term perspective.

I don't like the mindset of comparing X-wing to other games. It confuses the issue.

 

I would be OK if FFG just said, "this is X-wing 2.0 and you will need to update to play." Instead, they say that it is not a rewrite and that the original is still valid... but it soon will not be. All I am asking is for some 2nd option to buying the core all over again.

They did say that, they said it's xwing damage deck 2.0 and it's mandatory after Jan 1 so people have time to purchase the new core and tournaments are consistent until that cutover. 106 days to save up $40 assuming you have a tournament you want to play in on the 1st. That's 38¢ per day, so put 2 quarters in a jar and you'll have some left over.

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So regarding selling the damage deck separate, even if they did this, those complaining they have to buy a new core set to play competitively would be complaining that they need to buy a new damage deck to play competitively.  Furthermore, this won't happen.  The damage deck is technically the only thing you can't get from another source in order to play the game (excluding someone buying a core set and breaking up the components and selling it on Ebay).

 

1) Ships - Any expansion pack

2) Maneuver Templates - 3rd Party

3) Obstacles - Wave 5 expansions (plus 3rd party, but I'm not 100% sure on legality of them)

4) Dice - Dice pack

5) Printed material - Online

6) Damage Deck - NO ALTERNATIVE

7) Various tokens - Most expansion packs

 

So, the damage deck is the single thing requiring you to give FFG your money to get into the game.  As such, they're not going to create a way for you to not need to buy a core set.

 

 

And then regarding the entire 'package cards with the ships to make you buy a ship you don't want just to get the cards' aspect, once again, there is no solution that is going to satisfy everyone.  If you make a card pack, you either make it a random selection of cards, which will make some folks mad because now they have to buy multiple sets just to get the 2 Autothrusters they want and they wasted all of this money on cards they don't want... Or you package them in predefined sets, but then you're having to buy 2 sets to get 2 auto thrusters and then you have all of these other cards that you don't need that you had to waste money on.  Or you sell them individually, and the price for each card is just as expensive as the price for the entire card pack, but now you're only getting 1 card, and now it's truly a pay to play game since no one is going to bother buying the cards except to go to a tourney.  Furthermore, there's the entire issue of shelf space to support all of these cards.  

 

So, as you see, no matter how they do it, there are drawbacks.  They chose to go with the format that made the most sense to them, package cards that a ship would want with that ship... With the problem being that other ships want that card too.  While one could argue that they should package two of every card in a set (as they do with some Mods), they chose not to.  Oh well.

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FFG's draconian pricing model[/size]

 

Whoops! Here it is again.

 

Let me help you, "FFG's [ingenius] pricing model..."

 

Or, "FFG's [we make something that everyone wants, so what's the best way to make a great profit to stay in business and keep making awesome products?] pricing model..."

 

Well, let's be honest, selling card packs and such won't put FFG out of business.  How about, we the customers make the change?  If FFG listens to their profits, which they should, then let's hit them where it counts, and get a more customer friendly packaging model?

 

Of course, that would require effort and unity on our part, so I guess that's expecting too much :(

It would lower their margin. Are you privy to info about how this would change their profit/loss?

Brb I'm going to get my puppet account to agree with me.

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 FFG's draconian pricing model[/size]

 

Whoops! Here it is again.

 

Let me help you, "FFG's [ingenius] pricing model..."

 

Or, "FFG's [we make something that everyone wants, so what's the best way to make a great profit to stay in business and keep making awesome products?] pricing model..."

 

Well, let's be honest, selling card packs and such won't put FFG out of business.  How about, we the customers make the change?  If FFG listens to their profits, which they should, then let's hit them where it counts, and get a more customer friendly packaging model?

 

Of course, that would require effort and unity on our part, so I guess that's expecting too much :(

It would lower their margin. Are you privy to info about how this would change their profit/loss?

Brb I'm going to get my puppet account to agree with me.

I agree with you.

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I don't like the mindset of comparing X-wing to other games.

You have to compare it to something, otherwise in a vacuum it's hard to have a rational discussion.

 

Instead, they say that it is not a rewrite and that the original is still valid...

The original is still valid. There may be one piece of it that isn't valid in a given subset of the game, but that hardly makes it invalid. Unless you play in Premier level events, you do not need the new damage deck.

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Given only a vocal minority have a problem with this... yeah.

My mindset: sooo, new core sets, new ships, new upgrades, a few asteroids and new damage packs... well if i I do want to tourney those packs will be nice, and well i like the other stuff. <goes and buys two>.

It was never OMG I am forced to spend under 50 bucks to keep my list relevant, oh woe is me.

If you are playing casual it doesn't even matter.

If you are playing tourny, it's STILL CHEAPER THAN ALMOST EVERY OTHER TOURNEY GAME OUT THERE JESUS STOP WHINING.

Ahem, sorry. I paid $60 can on a space marine codex for 6th for it to be out of date within like a year and a half. Just saying. That's just a book with pretty pics and rules. That's not even the new wonderful overkill units like centurions, over $100 CAN before paint and glue and the work that goes into them. Then the rulebooks themselves are like $50 can, need those...

I just spent less than 100 canuckian groats on 4 new TIE's 2 new x-wings, and the rest of the above. including the always wanted for larger/party games more range sticks and dice.

I truly fail to see why the concern blatant whining. If this makes me an FFG fanboy I am kinda fine with that, myself. I prefer the term perspective.

I don't like the mindset of comparing X-wing to other games. It confuses the issue.

I would be OK if FFG just said, "this is X-wing 2.0 and you will need to update to play." Instead, they say that it is not a rewrite and that the original is still valid... but it soon will not be. All I am asking is for some 2nd option to buying the core all over again.

You're not buying the core all over again. You're buying a new product. New ships. New asteroids. New cards. If they had released an updated original core with a new deck and required it then your statement would be true. You will never get anyone(besides the puppet accounts) to agree with you when the premise of every new gripe is false. Edited by TasteTheRainbow

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Given only a vocal minority have a problem with this... yeah.

 

My mindset: sooo, new core sets, new ships, new upgrades, a few asteroids and new damage packs... well if i I do want to tourney those packs will be nice, and well i like the other stuff. <goes and buys two>.

 

It was never OMG I am forced to spend under 50 bucks to keep my list relevant, oh woe is me.

 

If you are playing casual it doesn't even matter.

If you are playing tourny, it's STILL CHEAPER THAN ALMOST EVERY OTHER TOURNEY GAME OUT THERE JESUS STOP WHINING.

 

Ahem, sorry. I paid $60 can on a space marine codex for 6th for it to be out of date within like a year and a half. Just saying. That's just a book with pretty pics and rules. That's not even the new wonderful overkill units like centurions, over $100 CAN before paint and glue and the work that goes into them. Then the rulebooks themselves are like $50 can, need those...

 

I just spent less than 100 canuckian groats on 4 new TIE's 2 new x-wings, and the rest of the above. including the always wanted for larger/party games more range sticks and dice.

 

I truly fail to see why the concern blatant whining. If this makes me an FFG fanboy I am kinda fine with that, myself. I prefer the term perspective.

I don't like the mindset of comparing X-wing to other games. It confuses the issue.

 

I would be OK if FFG just said, "this is X-wing 2.0 and you will need to update to play." Instead, they say that it is not a rewrite and that the original is still valid... but it soon will not be. All I am asking is for some 2nd option to buying the core all over again.

You're not buying the core all over again. You're buying a new product. New ships. New asteroids. New cards. If they had released an updated original core with a new deck and required it then your statement would be true. You will never get anyone to agree with you when the premise of every new gripe is false.

I agree with you.

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1. Reverse the ruling, and allow players to pick either deck to play (and treat it like strategically picking asteroids)

2. Sell the new Damage deck separately

3. Offer a downloadble PDF (like the rulebook) and allow us to "Print and Play" a new damage deck

 

The first one defeats the point of changing the damage deck: the idea is to remove dud crits from the game.

 

The second one is reasonable in my view and I actually expected them to do it: they might yet still but I wouldn't count on it. Even then, it'd be pricey.

 

The third isn't practical in terms of cheating prevention: printed damage cards can be altered, bad cutting can indicate which card is which and paper instead of card is a nightmare to deal with.

 

 

There'll probably be some damage decks going at reasonable prices, and the new deck isn't mandatory until January so you could probably get a TFA core set in a sale (especially post-Christmas or maybe in the US's Black Friday thing they have). Alternatively, buy a new core and sell on the ships, templates and dice to recoup your costs (the new templates are nicer than the old ones btw) or find another player that wants a second core and split it.

 

It's not ideal if you really don't want an upgraded X-wing, new asteroids and a couple of TIE/fos (both good ships) but there are plenty of ways around it. It's not as if your only option is to buy a full new core and store everything but the damage deck in a dusty cupboard.

 

Outside of tournaments, you could probably print out the new card text and stick it onto the cards that differ if you play with people who trust you.

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What I find most amusing about this "hit FFG where it hurts concept" and nerdrage over the new deck, is the idea that this game - which has been a runaway success that caught FFG entirely off-guard because of it - is somehow going to come to a screeching halt over this. Here's a hint: It won't. The game is being produced in vast quantities, distributed worldwide and is only going to grow in popularity (I think) when E7 hits the screens and new demographics are drawn into the new stories.

 

This new deck realistically affects a handful of players who, for whatever obstinate and/or just seriously stubborn reason they may have, object to being told that they must have the new deck. There's over three months, and a major gift giving holiday for many of the dominant religions, to plan for this. I have a friend who will not do anything when he's told that he must do something by an authority figure. It's just a thing with him, and generally causes problems. Maybe some of you are the same way. Fair enough. 

 

I've spent a small fortune on this game. I already own three core sets. More ships than I even remember buying. I'll probably buy at least one new core, and probably two. I just like the ships and that's always been the most cost effective way to increase the fleet size, and get those swanky new upgrade cards too.

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I think people are being far too aggressive and self-righteous toward the OP. Sure, $40 doesn't seem like a lot, but that's still money you'd rather spend on ships you'll atually fly. I'd like it if we stopped calling each other 'cry baby' and actually discussed things. I think the OP makes a good argument demonstrating how every other required component can be purchased outside of the core except the damage deck. That's quite interesting.

And I don't agree with the argument that if he doesn't agree with this packaging, he shouldn't have bought the first core. Back in wave 1, there were no acryllic templates to buy. Also, the dice pack wasn't even available at release. There was literally no way to play without the core. Now the market has expanded such that the damage deck is the sole thing left that you can only get from a core.

But I will say that even though you CAN get core components through othe means, I don't think it's as cost-effective as a core. You're spending about $30 for a range ruler and $8? dollars for dice. Noe you're already at the price of a core. You still need to spend another $30-$40 on ships with obstacles. Unless you're planning on flying VT-49s or YT-2400s, that's just more wasted ship. So for someone just getting started, the core is a better deal.

Now the OP is an existing player. One that doesn't want TFA ships (can't blame him) and already has everything neexed to play the game except the new deck. I think he (and I) are part of a minority group that would rather not have to buy a new core, but I think it is still the best move for FFG. Like others have said, we still have the option of buying a damage deck off someone else or buying a core and selling off components we don't want. Yeah, that's a little extra work for us, but you've gotta put in some work if you want to save money. But if the OP is anything like me, he'll buy the new core one day with the intention of selling the ships but will find the ships aren't bad and it's not worth the effort to get rid of them. FFG sure knows their target audience!

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I think people are being far too aggressive and self-righteous toward the OP. Sure, $40 doesn't seem like a lot, but that's still money you'd rather spend on ships you'll atually fly. I'd like it if we stopped calling each other 'cry baby' and actually discussed things. I think the OP makes a good argument demonstrating how every other required component can be purchased outside of the core except the damage deck. That's quite interesting.

The OP has the misfortune of calmly, rationally reaching out to make the same point others are dead-set on making at maximum volume with minimal reasoning.

Yes, $40 is a lot to pay for a new damage deck. It's a bargain for three new ships, new upgrades, new obstacles, range rulers, templates, and a damage deck, but the OP is right that if the only component you want or need is the new deck, then FFG's decision (even if it was made for good reasons and works for the majority of players) has put you in an uncomfortable position.

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I'm going to ask one thing.

 

Honest answers please:

 

Who here have actually purchased the x-wing Dice set rather than just a second core to get extra bits?

I purchased the dice set, and two additional cores. I wanted lots of bits and pieces to share. I also wanted the extra (original) damage decks so that I can teach and share the game at local conventions.

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