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Khiraxz versus star viper

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juggler's numbers deal with the generics

 

Xizor himself is only 2 points over soontir for the same pilot skill and far greater durability; far less reliance on action and a greater offensive punch with fcs, at the cost of lesser maneuverability post movement

 

he's a beast of a ship

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I think the fix for the named StarViper might well be the Cloaking Device. It will enable some crazy maneuvering on whoever it ends up on, and some nice defense while they get into position.

The biggest issue with the StarViper is that the most interesting options for it are on a unique title. A couple of Enforcers with Glitterstim could be interesting. Maybe even FCS, for some shenanigans in the next round.

Also also: I dearly wish Extra Munitions had applied to the illicit slot as well. There are a lot of discard cards there and giving the Virago the chance to use some of them twice would have been huge. Actually: it would have made the Cloaking Device kind of a nobrainer.

Ah well. :)

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juggler's numbers deal with the generics

 

Xizor himself is only 2 points over soontir for the same pilot skill and far greater durability; far less reliance on action and a greater offensive punch with fcs, at the cost of lesser maneuverability post movement

 

he's a beast of a ship

Xisor is PS 7 and costs 31 points.

Fel is PS9 and costs 27 points.

That's a huge difference in both PS and price. To equalize the PS difference, the point difference also goes up. And even then, Fel has better maneuver options than Xisor does.

This, I think, illustrates the problem with the StarViper: it's an arc dodger that can't clear stress and a tank that depends on green dice.

This is why I'm hopeful for the Cloaking Device: it will give the StarViper the Arc dodging ability it needs to really shine- and not chain it to its green manuvers.

That would have the unfortunate effect of moving Xisor away from his damage sinks, but eh. If done right his 5 dice + AutoThrusters ought to keep that from being too big a problem.

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I love me some Xizor. The guy is just so much fun!

 

Starviper generics, however, are just way too cruelly hamstrung to be worth the points imo. Their dial is the most unpredictable in the game, which makes them cool, but hiding systems upgrade behind a 'unique ship' paywall really did them some damage. It's unclear what your 25 points are buying you, when they're up against ...

 

- Sigma Phantom?

- FCS blue squadron?

- Khiraxz with glitterstim & missile?

- Tarn bleedin' Mison with IA & R7?

- Pair of Z's?

- Advanced with accuracy corrector & clusters?

- Saber with autothrusters & PTL? (1 point more)

- Doomshuttle?

- Hwk with tlt and recon specialist?

- Pimped out scimitar with EM, plasmas and conner net?

- Greenie with PTL, predator and autothrusters?

 

... Yeah, the naked ps1 starviper has to come bottom of the list. 

To fix the generic I'd say knock it down to 23 points, so 4-vipers w/AT could be a thing, or do away with that absurdly conservative piece of game design, 'Virago', and remove the restrictions on the card. Neither buff would effect Xizor, who is already a decent ship - just not one to everybody's liking :)

As for Khiraxz, well I think that they are now clearly inferior to an IA rookie at 22pts. (Would they have been given the same stats if they were released today, post IA?) But their upgrade slots, their hard 1 move and their spammability all make them 'okay' ships in my opinion...

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Both are great ships.  The Cartel Marauders are a mean, cheap, solid backbone for a list, the Black Sun Aces superb elite generics and Talonbane is a great finisher - Graz the Hunter is the only Kihraxz pilot that you might find it difficult to justify.

 

The Starvipers are in a different place - boost, barrel roll and the Segnor's Loops make them wildly unpredictable, tanky and hard-hitting arc dodgers.  Xizor and Guri are both fantastic named pilots with great abilities.

 

I think both ships could work really well in combination; in fact, I may have to pick up another couple of Kihraxz just to paint them in Black Sun colours.

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juggler's numbers deal with the generics

 

Xizor himself is only 2 points over soontir for the same pilot skill and far greater durability; far less reliance on action and a greater offensive punch with fcs, at the cost of lesser maneuverability post movement

 

he's a beast of a ship

Xisor is PS 7 and costs 31 points.

Fel is PS9 and costs 27 points.

That's a huge difference in both PS and price. To equalize the PS difference, the point difference also goes up. And even then, Fel has better maneuver options than Xisor does.

This, I think, illustrates the problem with the StarViper: it's an arc dodger that can't clear stress and a tank that depends on green dice.

This is why I'm hopeful for the Cloaking Device: it will give the StarViper the Arc dodging ability it needs to really shine- and not chain it to its green manuvers.

That would have the unfortunate effect of moving Xisor away from his damage sinks, but eh. If done right his 5 dice + AutoThrusters ought to keep thatrom being too big a problem.

Aiyah that's exactly what I'm talking about. Some folks really don't seem to grasp xizor

First of all, PS 9 xizor is 37 points; 2 more than soontir de jour

That's Xizor (v.I virago fcs thrusters)

Comparing base costs is pointless because a 27 point soontir is garbage.

Second of all Xizor does not have to arc Dodge unless he's alone. His ability is stupidly potent and exactly why he does not depend on green dice. It's a guaranteed action independent evade that works against every attack instead of just once per round

Cloaking device is overcompensation for nothing in xizor's case, the man is already practically immortal. Maybe guri will like it.

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He was immortal, I guess we'll see how the TLT meta likes bypassing his pilot talent.

 

Though, saying that, I guess he can just send in his minions then just clean up later. Still 3 Agility with ATs...

 

3 agility + ATs

 

surrounded by jousting fodder

 

has boost AND roll to close the doughnut hole

Edited by ficklegreendice

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I'm not sure they are really that comparable. Does anyone take starviper genetics?

I do! Two of them actually. Kath rounds out the list. Those PS1 Starvipers are amazing blockers and, because they move first, force the fighting where Kath wants it.

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juggler's numbers deal with the generics

 

Xizor himself is only 2 points over soontir for the same pilot skill and far greater durability; far less reliance on action and a greater offensive punch with fcs, at the cost of lesser maneuverability post movement

 

he's a beast of a ship

Xisor is PS 7 and costs 31 points.

Fel is PS9 and costs 27 points.

That's a huge difference in both PS and price. To equalize the PS difference, the point difference also goes up. And even then, Fel has better maneuver options than Xisor does.

This, I think, illustrates the problem with the StarViper: it's an arc dodger that can't clear stress and a tank that depends on green dice.

This is why I'm hopeful for the Cloaking Device: it will give the StarViper the Arc dodging ability it needs to really shine- and not chain it to its green manuvers.

That would have the unfortunate effect of moving Xisor away from his damage sinks, but eh. If done right his 5 dice + AutoThrusters ought to keep thatrom being too big a problem.

Aiyah that's exactly what I'm talking about. Some folks really don't seem to grasp xizor

First of all, PS 9 xizor is 37 points; 2 more than soontir de jour

That's Xizor (v.I virago fcs thrusters)

Comparing base costs is pointless because a 27 point soontir is garbage.

Second of all Xizor does not have to arc Dodge unless he's alone. His ability is stupidly potent and exactly why he does not depend on green dice. It's a guaranteed action independent evade that works against every attack instead of just once per round

Cloaking device is overcompensation for nothing in xizor's case, the man is already practically immortal. Maybe guri will like it.

 

 

Right.  I don't consider Xizor an arc dodger at all....except in the end game.  Then he's great for it.  Before that, though, and he's just flying with the formation.  He also doesn't require PTL to function since he can take FCS.  So, he's not even stressed that often (unless facing a stress list).

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I don't care what Major Juggler's stats say.  I took Xizor to Regionals and won my first 3 games.  I beat beat two dual Bro Bots lists and a crazy Rebel list.  I lost to a Phantom as I made one bad choice, but I had a chance to win.  I then faced Decimator and 3 Ties, but lost to some horrible dice rolls.  Even my opponent felt bad.  If I had won the last game, I would've made it into Top 16 cut.  

 

Just because people don't know how to fly Xizor doesn't mean it's a bad ship.  I found my list fantastic to beat most things in the last tournament meta.  It was great vs. Fat Turrets, Bro Bots, and most things.  Phantoms were it's bane, though.  Soontir was hard, but do-able.  I'd love to face Fat Turrets as I figured it was a win in my books. 

 

Well there's clearly no changing your mind, but I will say that MajorJuggler's stats have been pretty on point in terms of predicting a ship's performance and have helped determine which ships are in need of a boost (e.g. X-wing, TIE Adv).

 

And not to start a pissing contest, but I went 4-1 with dual Firesprays at regionals and made top 8. But that doesn't mean they don't need a small boost to be on par with YTs (Glitterstim might have just been it), and the Firespray's poor performance in tournaments certainly doesn't mean that everyone else just doesn't know how to fly them.

 

 

I tend to think that MJ's stats tend to create a narrative that may not always work.  People start thinking something isn't as good because the mathhammer says so.  They don't take it.  You don't see it.  Therefore, it's not good.  There have been some seriously good results from people with Tie Defenders doing well, but you never really heard much good about those ships besides a few die hards.  I think there are some base ideas and concepts with jousting efficiency numbers, but the game is more than just jousting.  

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He was immortal, I guess we'll see how the TLT meta likes bypassing his pilot talent.

 

Though, saying that, I guess he can just send in his minions then just clean up later. Still 3 Agility with ATs...

 

3 agility + ATs

 

surrounded by jousting fodder

 

has boost AND roll to close the doughnut hole

 

 

Yeah, I need to pile on here.  Xizor is probably in the top 5 for handling TLT Ys or HWKs.  If you add SJ on him with AT, he may be at the tip of the pile.  Guri may be slightly better in this specific matchup since PS 5 and 7 are basically the same versus PS2, his ability is more useful in this matchup and he is cheaper.  That being said, Xizor has other matchups that favor him over Guri.

 

 

ugh I remember running PTL xizor on the very first day I got him

 

 

so bad. Missing out on 1-turns and segnor's is just tragic.

 

 

ever since then, it's been either predator or V.I. Never once regretted it

 

I agree PTL is not the way to go on these guys and I usually go with your recommendations on them.  A lot of players get very hung up on extra actions, especially on ships with both barrel roll and boost.  While PTL lets you be more reactive, you can normally get the same results with one action and the full dial as you would with green moves and 2 actions, its just less forgiving on mistakes.  The Viper does not have green turns so that stress really messes with them.

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in regards to action efficiency, Xizor without PTL is less flexible than the likes of soontir but is simply more powerful i.t.o dice exchanges

 

 

Soontir, the most flexible of the action economy guys, weighs in at 3 total "actions" (action + ptl action + assign focus from stress)

 

Xizor also gets 3 "actions" without the aid of PTL

 

normal action, FCS, better than evade ability

 

 

 

basically, you're trading flexibility for sheer steam-roller status

 

which is probably why people are disappointed if they expect something ala soontir/jakes. Xizor's not that, he's like a B-wing if a B-wing were actually a tank (except said tank can also arc-dodge to an extent and is far more maneuverable than typical b-wings).

Edited by ficklegreendice

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Seems a bit unfair that TLTs ignore Xizor's ability. Is that expected to be FAQ'd?

Also , FGD and Heychadwick - has the introduction of Wave 7 (Glitterstim, Kihraxz, TLT warthogs, YV666 etc) changed what you run Xizor with or do you feel 5 BPs with VI 97 init bid still the best?

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Agreed on most of that fickle - Starvipers are definitely more comparable in function to B-Wings than hypermobile interceptors, although they certainly have a few more tricks at their disposal.

 

The action economy from FCS always assumes your target is still going to be alive the following turn.  Personally I'd run Xizor with Predator & Advanced Sensors, but then PS bids have never really been a priority for me.  VI & Accuracy Corrector is also potentially usable.  Push the Limit is Guri's zone - Boost/Barrel roll to range one, Target Lock, free focus.

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Honestly... I don't think the Starviper should be compared to the Interceptor or the B-wing.  It is NOT an arch dodger.  They can out fly most ships though.  It is not a B-wing either.  It only has 1 shield compared to the B-wing's 5!  The Starviper will survive that first volley, thanks to the one shield, but then should be taking advantage of its dial rather than jousting.

 

Honestly, the Starviper is more like a TIE FIghter than anything else.  It has more fire-power and durability than the standard TIE.  This causes the Starviper to be dangerous in small numbers.   

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Nah, the Kihrakz is actually significantly better as a generic- boost and barrel roll are much better at higher PS and unfortunately the StarViper generics are lacking in that department.  I will say the StarViper aces are better than the K-fighter aces because they're on a ship that can do more(Talonbane dies way too often without having much impact for my taste).

 

As generics, though, the K-fighters blow starvipers out of the water.

Absolutely,

 

the only 3 attack ship you cantake 5 of and that has more than 3 hp. That's pretty **** good.

 

I mena you can have 5 Interceptors and 5 Scyks with Manglers but they both are kinda vulnerable.

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Speaking of the syck, i dont think the heavy syck title should cost anything. Its such a fragile little ship, paying 2 extra points to stick a decent weapon on it (on top of the cost of the weapon) prices it out unless you have a very specific plan for it. Particularly when you look at the single shot ordanance weapons.

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Seems a bit unfair that TLTs ignore Xizor's ability. Is that expected to be FAQ'd?

Also , FGD and Heychadwick - has the introduction of Wave 7 (Glitterstim, Kihraxz, TLT warthogs, YV666 etc) changed what you run Xizor with or do you feel 5 BPs with VI 97 init bid still the best?

it's just a result of the mechanics, in the same way wedge and blounts abilities are irrelevant against a decimator.

you can definitely be hit without taking damage, and since draw their fire and ion cannons have been confirmed to work this way, I'm not expecting turrets to be any different,.

on the other hand, an agility 3, 5 hit ship with the potential for autothrusters and a sensor jammer is not exactly terrified of twin laser turrets, regardless of who is flying.

the Kihraxz is a lot more fighter fof your points, but the viper is a lot better fighter for an ace - doubly so since the virago title is unique.

Edited by Magnus Grendel

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juggler's numbers deal with the generics

 

Xizor himself is only 2 points over soontir for the same pilot skill and far greater durability; far less reliance on action and a greater offensive punch with fcs, at the cost of lesser maneuverability post movement

 

he's a beast of a ship

Xisor is PS 7 and costs 31 points.

Fel is PS9 and costs 27 points.

That's a huge difference in both PS and price. To equalize the PS difference, the point difference also goes up. And even then, Fel has better maneuver options than Xisor does.

This, I think, illustrates the problem with the StarViper: it's an arc dodger that can't clear stress and a tank that depends on green dice.

This is why I'm hopeful for the Cloaking Device: it will give the StarViper the Arc dodging ability it needs to really shine- and not chain it to its green manuvers.

That would have the unfortunate effect of moving Xisor away from his damage sinks, but eh. If done right his 5 dice + AutoThrusters ought to keep thatrom being too big a problem.

Aiyah that's exactly what I'm talking about. Some folks really don't seem to grasp xizor

First of all, PS 9 xizor is 37 points; 2 more than soontir de jour

That's Xizor (v.I virago fcs thrusters)

Comparing base costs is pointless because a 27 point soontir is garbage.

Second of all Xizor does not have to arc Dodge unless he's alone. His ability is stupidly potent and exactly why he does not depend on green dice. It's a guaranteed action independent evade that works against every attack instead of just once per round

Cloaking device is overcompensation for nothing in xizor's case, the man is already practically immortal. Maybe guri will like it.

 

 

Guri disagrees with you. In all my games if she does die she is the last ship standing. The problem I am finding with the star viper is you cant take 2 virago. 

 

Also I feel like comparing Khiraxz to the star viper only works until you throw in the virago title. The sensor slot changes things quite a bit. 

 

Scum needs an aces pack so they can get more pilots for some of their ships and have a fix for the ones that need it like the scyk 

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