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El_Ganso

Am I the only one who...

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While I think there's a lot we can agree on here, BD. Principally, I believe we both agree that the story needs to move forward, rather than rebooting back to the original as was suggested in the original post.

 

Personally, I don't think they need to go as far forward as a 1000 Years of Peace, but moving forward is the key. L5R has a rich, storied history. Don't erase it, don't drown in nostalgia for it, and build the new storyline with a knowledge of what has come before it. I just think you can do that just as easily from where the story is at present (ignoring Onyx), than pushing even farther forward.

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If you want the old stories to matter, they can. Go read them. Don't require others to do the same to get full enjoyment out of what should be a new game.

 

 

 

And thats the point it is not a new game. It is an allready exsiting game which will change ownership and distirbution mode but nothing more. It allready has an established setting and lore. It allready has factions which evolved and acted based upon this and the stories are a important part to it if they are good or bad. Therfore I hope FFG will keep it and advance into the future instead of resetting it completly so that the old stories still matter and all of them still happend but things changed. 

 

One way to do this would be continueing with the Onyx Empire or if you don´t want to play in it time jump over it  but resetting it and ignoring everything which was offical canon before is not an option I would use cause it most likely keep a huge bunch of people away from the game who otherwise would have bought it before.

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Personally, I don't think they need to go as far forward as a 1000 Years of Peace, but moving forward is the key. L5R has a rich, storied history. Don't erase it, don't drown in nostalgia for it, and build the new storyline with a knowledge of what has come before it. I just think you can do that just as easily from where the story is at present (ignoring Onyx), than pushing even farther forward.

 

Yeah, the 1000 years of peace thing was just one example. The important point is moving forward. It's not the next episode of a TV show. It's a sequel, or a spinoff, with its own story to tell. Let's give it the room to do that.

 

I think whether we jump forward 1000 years or just ignore Onyx is simply a matter of degrees.

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If you want the old stories to matter, they can. Go read them. Don't require others to do the same to get full enjoyment out of what should be a new game.

 

 

 

And thats the point it is not a new game.

 

 

I believe you're mistaken on that point. It's L5R, but it's a new L5R. Just as the cards won't be compatible, I wouldn't expect the story to be compatible to the degree that it's a continuation of what's come before.

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Not sure it matters exactly how much work a tournament win did or did not involve. If a big part of the selling point of your game is "you make the story," then you are trying for player ownership of that story. Regardless of whether an individual tournament win, or all tournament wins taken together, are or are not the equivalent of writing a novel doesn't matter - it only matters that you're trying to instill that sense of ownership. So if you're aiming for that (which L5R traditionally has, and which IMHO will continue in some form under FFG, although probably to a significantly lesser extent), then you want to - to the extent practical - treat those influences with some level of respect.

 

That respect was paid (again, with the exception of the recent results; talk to AEG).

 

The stories that were won exist. They aren't (I assume) being erased.

 

What i'm suggesting isn't the Abrams reboot of Trek. It's The Next Generation. You could still watch TOS in reruns, but TOS characters appeared what...twice? In over 200 episodes.

 

 

But others (including the OP) have suggested rebooting the whole setting. So I think it's a relevant consideration.

 

And I do not think they should reboot. I would be open to the possibility of FFG having some particular plan in mind that required rebooting, but I personally see little benefit from a reboot as compared to a time jump (and you probably don't even need that much of a time jump, unless you were doing something relatively radical).

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But others (including the OP) have suggested rebooting the whole setting. So I think it's a relevant consideration.

 

And I do not think they should reboot. I would be open to the possibility of FFG having some particular plan in mind that required rebooting, but I personally see little benefit from a reboot as compared to a time jump (and you probably don't even need that much of a time jump, unless you were doing something relatively radical).

 

 

Actually, in many ways a reboot would create more baggage, because there'd be weird expectations about what was coming (see also: Star Trek Into Darkness).

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But others (including the OP) have suggested rebooting the whole setting. So I think it's a relevant consideration.

 

And I do not think they should reboot. I would be open to the possibility of FFG having some particular plan in mind that required rebooting, but I personally see little benefit from a reboot as compared to a time jump (and you probably don't even need that much of a time jump, unless you were doing something relatively radical).

 

 

Actually, in many ways a reboot would create more baggage, because there'd be weird expectations about what was coming (see also: Star Trek Into Darkness).

 

I can actually see people forming petitions and picking story choices to make sure that their precious [whatever] happened exactly the way it was "supposed" to.  Probably with an equally vocal group who delights in trolling them and picking things to be as different as possible and mess up the old continuity.   

 

I hope we get new stories.  I liked your Star Trek, Star Trek: Next Generation analogy.  

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I still say opening with a timeline-agnostic set that establishes the clan's identity is the best of both worlds. You quickly paint the picture of what the clans are and what their history is, and how the empire came to be what it is, then you move on immediately to new plots at whatever points in time you want to start. 

 

Going back over the same stories would be a horrible choice.

Discarding the past altogether would be just as bad. 

 

Honor the past. Look to the future. 

Edited by Himoto

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Yeah, not on the reboot bandwagon, but a timeskip (something I normally loathe because we lose track of characters we're invested in) would not be as terrible here, since we're looking at two years of real-life downtime anyhow.

 

But I expect FFG has Top Men Working On It.

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Either way, whatever FFG does, theres going to be old fans who don't like it, so I think we should at least mentally prepare ourselves to not get what we want. A lot of what held this game down the first run around was the forced marriages the players had to it, its really time for someone to make it the free soaring bird that it was in the beginning. 

Personal opinion: Do a significant time jump again, from where it left off, enough that the history is still there, but also enough that there is nothing hanging on. New champions, new dynamics, new emperor, new 'realms' or lands really make this thing more than just feudal samurai with some magic-y stuff sprinkled in. Acknowledge the past, but don't revel in it. Accentuate the fantastic, make things *pop.* Just really take the time to shake off some of the loose ends. 

 

Just make some new stuff! I'm tired of having yet *another* underhanded/political faction (gozoku/kolat) or yet *another* existential uber-evil threat (jigoku/lying darkness/kali-ma). Time for some new stuff, really put the Fantasy into the setting. 

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Just make some new stuff! I'm tired of having yet *another* underhanded/political faction (gozoku/kolat) or yet *another* existential uber-evil threat (jigoku/lying darkness/kali-ma). Time for some new stuff, really put the Fantasy into the setting. 

 

Like roman gaijin! No wait...

 

How about the colonies declaring their indipendance from from Rokugan? It could possibly split entire clans down the middle: Those who have sworn allegaince to the second city and those still loyal to Rokugan.

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I would prefer the Doomtown approach. Everything in the previous edition still happened, there was simply a time jump that took place, which gave time for the new factions to be introduced and for the town to start rebuilding.

 

Poor use of the 20 years worth of storyline they just paid for. 

 

Because, ultimately, that's the heart of the Rokugan setting. Not the RPG splat book, not the general idea of a world split into clans. The twenty years of story that fleshed out those clans and gave them their iconic characters and moments. 

 

L5R has had time jumps before, most recently between Celestial and Emperor. AEG were already planning for one to happen some time during Onyx.

 

 

Time jumps for an established game are one things.

 

A whole new game in the same setting by a wholly different company is another thing entirely.

 

And I didn't suggest making the whole game timeline-agnostic ; only the base set. Start with the personalities and icons that best depict each clan, regardless of where they come from in the storyline. Then build it up with dynasty pack or whatever you call them that are actually relevant to the current storyline and expand on what is happening now.If and when new clans get added, likewise start them up with a pack introducing the most iconic and representative elements of the clan, regardless of timeline, then follow it up with more story-relevant material.  

 

Whya Random Guy From 20 Years Ago has to be better at depicting his clan than a fresh, new personality designed to specifically depict "Clan X by FFG"? 

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Keep the storyline going. What happened, happened. I don't see a point in going back. If you want to change things, forward skip is much better in my view (but I would rather stay where we are).

I want to see FFG-designed Makoto with new art :D .

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IMO they should keep the current storyline. Though I like the ''good old days'' rebooting feels like a slap on the face for 20 years of development, story picks and prizes , etc.

And of course the current storyline of onyx is new and still undefined. Kanpeki takes the throne but after that there's nothing written so FFG can actually start from there pretty easily.

 

Why is it that a new company, with a new direction for the games themselves, should feel beholden to twenty years of another company's scattershot development generated by the vagaries and whimsy of tournament prizes?

 

Why feel beholden to this rather than make their own mark?

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Why is it that a new company, with a new direction for the games themselves, should feel beholden to twenty years of another company's scattershot development generated by the vagaries and whimsy of tournament prizes?

 

Why feel beholden to this rather than make their own mark?

 

 

Because that is literally what they bought?

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Why is it that a new company, with a new direction for the games themselves, should feel beholden to twenty years of another company's scattershot development generated by the vagaries and whimsy of tournament prizes?

 

Why feel beholden to this rather than make their own mark?

 

Because that is literally what they bought?

They bought the IP. Twenty years of baggage just happens to come with it.

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I believe there will be a reboot based on the pattern  that FFG has when they acquire an IP (neturnner, Game of thrones, Lord of the rings).I’m not sure how they will handle the story elements of the game, but what I am sure of is that the game mechanics will be solid and I will have a great time playing. On a side note, the L5R story and game has waned considerably; since people like John Wick, Dave Williams, Ree Soesbee left to work on other projects, so in all honesty a fresh take on the origin of the setting I love by talented people like the ones FFG has is a refreshing change and I for one look forward to it.

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I don't think a storyline reset would be a good idea.

 

However, opening the game with a timeline-agnostic base set that reflects the most notable personalities of the setting, regardless of when or where they lived, would be a pretty reasonable move. That would give the new game a much more solid base to go from and tell its own stories, and allow FFG to draw on the full richness of the setting they bought, rather than being stuck with most of the most notable characters of that setting being unusable in the game.  

 

Sorry, but why would FFG necessarily want to use "the full richness of the setting they bought" as you are proposing... its not as if L5R did not suffer a giant mess of nonsense story decisions (gods ascending and being booted out of the heavens every few months is the one that bothered me the most).  I agree that the 2nd thousand years of darkness idea for Onyx is the first decent story idea in a while... but its far from being necessary for FFG.  

 

Also, your idea of having a "best of" personality mis-mash in the base set is only meaningful to some of the ex-CCG players (many will not know Togashi Mitsu, or Bayushi Shoju from early in the game's history)... moreover, its mostly meaningless to fully new players (even worse, it may be somewhat off-putting).

 

 

Sorry, but I am not sure I really see that benefit from FFG's standpoint.  Having said that, I do not know what their priority will be... to appease the "existing crowd" or "bring new a new audience".  Then again, maybe they will devise a great strategy which succeeds to do both and make this discussion moot (showing that they are smarter than myself in the process).

 

 

Thaddok

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They bought the IP. Twenty years of baggage just happens to come with it.

 

 

Exactly.  The setting is much stronger than the convoluted story that followed.

 

 

The setting really isn't that strong. It's got some cool elements, but a well-crafted, deep setting this isn't. It'S a bunch of random Asian cliché thrown together with some superficiail attempts to tie it all. It was the early stories (up to and including Gold), that really breathed life into the settings and made it work (not that those stories were particularly exceptional, but they took the elements that worked of the setting and made them come together while skidding across those elements that didn't work). 

 

 

 

orry, but why would FFG necessarily want to use "the full richness of the setting they bought" as you are proposing... its not as if L5R did not suffer a giant mess of nonsense story decisions (gods ascending and being booted out of the heavens every few months is the one that bothered me the most).  I agree that the 2nd thousand years of darkness idea for Onyx is the first decent story idea in a while... but its far from being necessary for FFG.  

 

And even as it suffered from that "giant mess", it still managed to develop iconic personalities who became emblem of their clans. That there was (a lot of) bad in those years doesn't mean there wasn't a lot of good, too. If there was nothing good throughout the era, then the game would have died a lot earlier. 

 

The benefit to FFG is pretty simple:

-It appeals to the old fans. That's a plus: more returning buyers. 

-It doesn't harm the new fans: at worst they won't know who these are (same as with new personalities), and at best, the old fans will regal them with stories of their favorites (thus putting the new fans in contact with the setting's rich tradition).

-It advertise that this is a setting with a history, not some new thing they just came up with. 

-It makes it easier for them to build the fiction and flavor text early on ; they don't really have to worry about it until the monthly packs start coming out (and then in smaller doses). 

Edited by Himoto

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They bought the IP. Twenty years of baggage just happens to come with it.

 

Ah, but here's the thing...

 

If FFG wanted to make a setting based on factions of magical samurai scrapping with supernatural evil from time to time... they really didn't need to buy the IP. That's a broad enough notion that they could have just made their own.

That "twenty years of baggage," to anyone who recognizes it (and therefore gives it any sort of inherent value), is the brand.

Is there stuff I hate about the twenty years of story to date? Ohhhh yeah, you bet. The Phoenix never won a war within the active timeline and were so depleted after the Clan Wars they really shouldn't have existed by the time I got into the game. The Toturi Dynasty failed on every conceivable level and had a whopping three Emperors (well, two and a half, really) before being swept away to make room for the next "grab the throne" megagame. Daigotsu became a tumor on the Shadowlands faction that they really can't seem to escape. Yoritomo, to a lesser extent, did the same to the Mantis. The Destroyer War was a confused mess. The Empire, after a supposed thousand years of peace, faced multiple existential threats in the span of two generations.

All of this is ridiculous... but a lot of what makes the setting what it is lies buried in the mess as well. Twenty years of fleshing out culture, customs, and history.

With that said, if FFG IS going to reset the... uh... setting, then I'd rather they went scorched earth than simply started us over in the Clan Wars again. Day of Thunder has been done*. Hidden Emperor is done. Destroyer War is done (thankfully).

* I would actually argue that the Day of Thunder marked a severe problem the setting never really overcame- with the entire plot up to that point centered around the return and defeat of Fu Leng, but with the game continuing, a lot of things that made zero sense got baked into the setting from that point on.

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To anyone who says the setting really isn't that great, and FFG could have created their own Asian fantasy setting for a LCG really doesn't understand the strength of the brand. Sure, its a very niche setting but when it comes to playing a samurai game, no other game has the name recognition. When I sit down at the table to play a RPG, I've never once heard someone suggest Blood & Honor, Sengoku or Oriental Adventures. L5R has been around for twenty years, it has a cult following and it has a name recognition FFG can leverage and boost with their marketing capabilities AEG never had. If FFG had launched their own setiing they would have been forced to compete with AEG and L5R with an unproven IP, merely following in the footsteps of a giant in an already niche market. So, let's not act L5R's setting was not what was wanted. In business, I'd rather be the guy everyone is trying to imitate.

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