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Well they won't have to worry about all those GW licened games they have been making, anymore.

 

On one hand that freed up more resources/desginers for L5R, on the other hand, that's a lot of games they are no longer selling, s they need to really deliver with L5R.

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Well they won't have to worry about all those GW licened games they have been making, anymore.

 

On one hand that freed up more resources/desginers for L5R, on the other hand, that's a lot of games they are no longer selling, s they need to really deliver with L5R.

 

The games that were cancelled were all no longer under development in any serious way outside of the Conquest LCG, and apparently upcoming Forbidden Stars supplements. Talisman had completed its very long run, the RPGs are all finished...there were very few designers working on any of the GW IP games any more (which, as FFG would know this was coming, isn't surprising in retrospect).

 

I know Talisman was a big hit, and Conquest was doing so-so OK for an LCG, but none of the lines were really alive any more, so I'm not seeing how much bottom line sadness FFG is going to have with not selling Chaos Marauders and Blood Bowl: Team Manager, especially once they recoup whatever expenses the GW license cost them.

 

In any case, Netrunner and all their Star Wars games are just printing them money, and their Arkham Horror family, Twilight Imperium line, and the Rune-games are all chugging along, so they hardly need to lean on L5R to keep their employees in dinners at Mickey's (my pick for St. Paul's best diner). They picked up the L5R IP because a bunch of their employees love the setting and games set it in, and they believe they can turn a profit on it, but there seems to be strange belief around here that FFG needs L5R to be this amazing hit...or else. The only or else I can see in the horizon is that FFG shrugs and cancels L5R if it doesn't sell over the first few years.

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The guys at FFG must feel so much pressure on their shoulders right now. They'll have to all seppuku if they fail us on this game  :lol: !

 

Are you new to FFG? 

 

 

FFwhat ?

 

 

They picked up the L5R IP because a bunch of their employees love the setting and games set it in, and they believe they can turn a profit on it, but there seems to be strange belief around here that FFG needs L5R to be this amazing hit...or else. The only or else I can see in the horizon is that FFG shrugs and cancels L5R if it doesn't sell over the first few years.

 

 

Yea you're right, they took L5R in because some employees liked it. Not because L5R has been there for 21 years with a huge fan base, that it is a very rich and exciting setting, and that it sells both cards and RPGs with success. *sarcasm*  <_<

 

When is the next time FFG could pick up something similar ? Is there even something similar out there, tell me ? Magic, Pokemon... and then what, find me a 20 yo card game still selling and still having a future... I don't see one.

 

So it's a big no no. The fact this game is beloved by some employees was cherry on the cake. But it's just a smart business move because FFG knows it has now the experience to do what AEG was struggling to do : make L5R the best cardgame ever (again) !  ;)

Edited by Katsutoshi

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The guys at FFG must feel so much pressure on their shoulders right now. They'll have to all seppuku if they fail us on this game  :lol: !

 

Are you new to FFG? 

 

 

FFwhat ?

 

 

FFG generally doesn't bother when it comes to fan expectations. They are cool with handing out disappointing products, knowing that the fans will eat it either way (see Dark Heresy Second Edition). They ain't like AEG, I can tell you that. 

 

 

They picked up the L5R IP because a bunch of their employees love the setting and games set it in, and they believe they can turn a profit on it, but there seems to be strange belief around here that FFG needs L5R to be this amazing hit...or else. The only or else I can see in the horizon is that FFG shrugs and cancels L5R if it doesn't sell over the first few years.

 

 

Yea you're right, they took L5R in because some employees liked it. Not because L5R has been there for 21 years with a huge fan base, that it is a very rich and exciting setting, and that it sells both cards and RPGs with success. *sarcasm* 

 

 

Well, the reason why AEG sold L5R was because the fan base was shrinking (and wasn't very big for some time), the setting was a mess, and it didn't sell very well. They tried to do an Onyx Edition to deal with these problems, it didn't work out too well for them, so they sold the game. Luckily, a few chaps at FFG liked L5R so they were up to buying despite the various problems with the franchise. The facts that L5r could remain afloat for so long and had a hardcore fan base were just icing on the cake  ;) .

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FFG generally doesn't bother when it comes to fan expectations. They are cool with handing out disappointing products, knowing that the fans will eat it either way (see Dark Heresy Second Edition). They ain't like AEG, I can tell you that. 

 

"What fan wants" doesn't really mean anything. L5R fans for example have various opinions on what they want for the game. Plus, FFG are pros, they know that "what the fans want" doesn't necessarly mean it's good for the game.

 

Of course they can release disappointing products. But I don't think they saw Dark Heresy Second Edition as a goose that laid the golden eggs. While, on the other hand, if they bought L5R, and with all the good LCGs they have produced these years, it is with one purpose : make this game huge. Huge as in an amazing game, and huge as in huge profits. So when they say it will be their biggest product launch ever : I do believe it.

 

Apple can botch its new Watch or the new iPod. But it can't botch its new iPhone, and it knows it. They don't need to revolutionise the market with every iPhone they release, but they do know they absolutely need not to screw it. So with that said, if the game is a big flop, of course FFG will matter, and of course they do bother. Now will they make seppuku ? No, they won't have to, cause we know where to find them :).

Edited by Katsutoshi

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Of course they can release disappointing products. But I don't think they saw Dark Heresy Second Edition as a goose that laid the golden eggs. 

 

 

Warhammer 40k is much bigger than L5R and IIRC the Dark Heresy First Edition RPG might be one of the best selling FFG products by date (it was going third on the whole RPG market for quite long). 

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Well, the reason why AEG sold L5R was because the fan base was shrinking (and wasn't very big for some time), the setting was a mess, and it didn't sell very well. They tried to do an Onyx Edition to deal with these problems, it didn't work out too well for them, so they sold the game. Luckily, a few chaps at FFG liked L5R so they were up to buying despite the various problems with the franchise. The facts that L5r could remain afloat for so long and had a hardcore fan base were just icing on the cake  ;) .

 

 

I think the exact opposite. FFG bought L5R because the fact it remained afloat for so long is a testimony of the success of the game and to the hardcore fan base. The fact AEG was struggling these last few years is what made AEG sell the game, not what make FFG buy it, or the fact the guys liked it.

 

FFG knows it can now do a better job than AEG both with the card design, with the reset of the setting and with the distribution system (LCG).

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Of course they can release disappointing products. But I don't think they saw Dark Heresy Second Edition as a goose that laid the golden eggs. 

 

 

Warhammer 40k is much bigger than L5R and IIRC the Dark Heresy First Edition RPG might be one of the best selling FFG products by date (it was going third on the whole RPG market for quite long). 

 

I didn't see the WH40K RPG fanbase bigger than the L5R RPG fanbase. But I don't have any numbers to support it, it's just an opinion. Now that you said this, I feel like investigating :).

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Well, the reason why AEG sold L5R was because the fan base was shrinking (and wasn't very big for some time), the setting was a mess, and it didn't sell very well.

 

I'm inclined to see all of those as problems AEG created for itself through its poor management of the franchise. If there weren't something good at the core of the product it wouldn't have lasted twenty years or had a fan base to lose in the first place. If nothing else the relaunch will be a good jumping back on point for lapsed players.

 

On the subject of comparing L5R to other FF products I think it's important to consider that since L5R is owned in its entirety it doesn't have costly licencing fees or the uncertainty of possibly losing the license down the line. So FF has some added incentive to ensure the quality of what the put out.

Edited by shineyorkboy

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L5R balance. 
every cycle. 
lion and unicorn start out dominating. 
by the second or third expansion they have some magic bullets that stop the  imbalance...then mantis breaks the game because...koku. 

I love L5R and the world they created but 2 things kept me from playing it the last 6 years.
-how many times can you move the timeline forward and change the characters and keep the story exciting?
-it's a building game with magic bullets. Last time I played people seemed to have all the cards they needd to feint and take provinces wherever they wanted...bleh.

I am very excited to see this new game and a new start. 
I hope the mechanics are different enough that this is a new start for everybody.
I will give them another try to get me invested in the characters too. 
 

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L5R balance. 

every cycle. 

lion and unicorn start out dominating. 

by the second or third expansion they have some magic bullets that stop the  imbalance...then mantis breaks the game because...koku. 

 

Not true.

 

And balance is a myth in card games, CCGs and LCGs also.

 

-how many times can you move the timeline forward and change the characters and keep the story exciting?

 

Every edition, every 2 years. It worked for 20 years.

 

-it's a building game with magic bullets. Last time I played people seemed to have all the cards they needd to feint and take provinces wherever they wanted...bleh.

 

Game built in repeating Slow(Gold)/Faster(Diamond)/Fastest(Lotus)/Slow(Samurai)/Faster(Celestial)/Fastest(Emperor)/Slow(Ivory/Twenty Festivals) etc. editions. You didn't like Fastest one, drop it for two years, come back later. Much better solution than neverending powercreep that killed many CCGs.

Edited by kempy

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The guys at FFG must feel so much pressure on their shoulders right now. They'll have to all seppuku if they fail us on this game  :lol: !

 

Are you new to FFG? 

 

 

FFwhat ?

 

 

They picked up the L5R IP because a bunch of their employees love the setting and games set it in, and they believe they can turn a profit on it, but there seems to be strange belief around here that FFG needs L5R to be this amazing hit...or else. The only or else I can see in the horizon is that FFG shrugs and cancels L5R if it doesn't sell over the first few years.

 

 

Yea you're right, they took L5R in because some employees liked it. Not because L5R has been there for 21 years with a huge fan base, that it is a very rich and exciting setting, and that it sells both cards and RPGs with success. *sarcasm*  <_<

 

If L5R was a successful license, AEG wouldn't have sold it. John Zinser said the same thing in the post-sale interviews. A huge fan base? Not enough to sustain the game for AEG. They tried the "LCG" model for Doomtown, and that wasn't a success for them either.

 

The L5R card game does not have an intrinsic fan base big enough to sustain a *CG economically. That's why it was sold. You can keep saying the opposite all you want, but if you were right, AEG'd be one year into the next expansion already.

 

What it *does* have is an IP that potentially could recoup value for a company big enough to absorb the cost of buying the IP as an acceptable risk, especially by a company very well known for aggressively developing IPs they have access to (just take a look at all the Games Workshop IP-based games FFG put out over the 8 years they had the license; they arguably did more with the IP than GW ever did). The IP, Rokugan, was the selling point, because that gives FFG another IP to own and develop.

 

That there were L5R fans among the developers and designers helped push the sale through to the top of FFG, and that they love the old game enough to try to bring the card game back as an LCG is a bonus, not a mission. Of course, they'd love it if they get another Netrunner or X-Wing out of this, and I hope they do crazy good success as well. But here's the other point -- FFG is big enough that if the L5R reboot tumbles and folds, the cost of developing one LCG line will not significantly hurt the company as a whole (unlike AEG).

 

Considering that in the past you didn't even recognize the huge successes of Pokemon or Yugi-Oh! as games, I'd suggest that your perception of what, exactly, is successful in the industry isn't exactly on par with what's going on. It's great to be a fan of Rokugan, but claiming there's a huge untapped pool of L5R players that will make the reboot the biggest game at FFG is really not lining up with what we see in the industry. That pool of players wasn't enough to keep the game alive at AEG, a much smaller company. The same pool of players over at FFG won't even equal their German Netrunner sales.

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Well, the reason why AEG sold L5R was because the fan base was shrinking (and wasn't very big for some time), the setting was a mess, and it didn't sell very well. They tried to do an Onyx Edition to deal with these problems, it didn't work out too well for them, so they sold the game. Luckily, a few chaps at FFG liked L5R so they were up to buying despite the various problems with the franchise. The facts that L5r could remain afloat for so long and had a hardcore fan base were just icing on the cake  ;) .

 

 

I think the exact opposite. FFG bought L5R because the fact it remained afloat for so long is a testimony of the success of the game and to the hardcore fan base. The fact AEG was struggling these last few years is what made AEG sell the game, not what make FFG buy it, or the fact the guys liked it.

 

AEG has NOT been struggling the past few years. AEG has been doing quite fine for itself, largely based on Smash Up, their endless Love Letter variations, and, I believe, to a lesser extent Trains. AEG is solidly rolling in the dough. As an old fan of AEG, that makes me happy.

 

What had been failing at AEG was L5R. L5R was losing them money...enough so that cutting it loose was worth it, despite the fond feelings for the game over there.

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L5R would have stopped, we would say it was a successful license. For all the time it's been there, and all the people that have L5R forever in their heart. And so it is a successful license, and in a few years we will even say that it is a successful license that had its downs and that was reborn at the hands of FFG. Period.

 

It's great to be a fan of Rokugan, but claiming there's a huge untapped pool of L5R players that will make the reboot the biggest game at FFG is really not lining up with what we see in the industry.

 

 

I am a die-hard L5R fan. I have thousands and thousands of L5R cards in boxes, I have more than 30 RPG books, and I have mastered maybe a dozen of campaigns, not even mentionning the ones I played. And you know what ? My record is not even impressive in comparaison to people I know. I even have a real amazing Crane banner, hand-maid, done in sashiko, and you will never find another piece like this anywhere else in the world...

 

... and I haven't been playing L5R the cardgame for the last 4 or 5 years. And I know many and many and many players that are just like me. Now, maybe you don't realise, but I do. All I can say now is : you will see :).

 

 

P.S. : answering your last post : I was saying that AEG was struggling with L5R, not that AEG was struggling as a whole. You missed the point, I don't care AEG, I was talking about L5R.

Edited by Katsutoshi

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I think the exact opposite. FFG bought L5R because the fact it remained afloat for so long is a testimony of the success of the game and to the hardcore fan base. The fact AEG was struggling these last few years is what made AEG sell the game, not what make FFG buy it, or the fact the guys liked it.

 

FFG knows it can now do a better job than AEG both with the card design, with the reset of the setting and with the distribution system (LCG).

 

 

Honestly, based on the likely timelines, I would not be surprised that they bought L5R because they knew they were going to lose the license. If the rumored account I heard is true, then the relationship was definitely souring last year. 

 

 

 

If L5R was a successful license, AEG wouldn't have sold it. John Zinser said the same thing in the post-sale interviews. A huge fan base? Not enough to sustain the game for AEG. They tried the "LCG" model for Doomtown, and that wasn't a success for them either.

 

The L5R card game does not have an intrinsic fan base big enough to sustain a *CG economically. That's why it was sold. You can keep saying the opposite all you want, but if you were right, AEG'd be one year into the next expansion already.

 

What it *does* have is an IP that potentially could recoup value for a company big enough to absorb the cost of buying the IP as an acceptable risk, especially by a company very well known for aggressively developing IPs they have access to (just take a look at all the Games Workshop IP-based games FFG put out over the 8 years they had the license; they arguably did more with the IP than GW ever did). The IP, Rokugan, was the selling point, because that gives FFG another IP to own and develop.

 

That there were L5R fans among the developers and designers helped push the sale through to the top of FFG, and that they love the old game enough to try to bring the card game back as an LCG is a bonus, not a mission. Of course, they'd love it if they get another Netrunner or X-Wing out of this, and I hope they do crazy good success as well. But here's the other point -- FFG is big enough that if the L5R reboot tumbles and folds, the cost of developing one LCG line will not significantly hurt the company as a whole (unlike AEG).

 

Considering that in the past you didn't even recognize the huge successes of Pokemon or Yugi-Oh! as games, I'd suggest that your perception of what, exactly, is successful in the industry isn't exactly on par with what's going on. It's great to be a fan of Rokugan, but claiming there's a huge untapped pool of L5R players that will make the reboot the biggest game at FFG is really not lining up with what we see in the industry. That pool of players wasn't enough to keep the game alive at AEG, a much smaller company. The same pool of players over at FFG won't even equal their German Netrunner sales.

 

 

And how successful was Netrunner when WOTC and Garfield made the game? 2 expansions? And look at Netrunner now under FFG. The current playerbase for L5R may not be big enough to be successful. But don't underestimate the power of FFG and the LCG brand. Especially those like me. Who started gaming in that amazing first CCG boom of the 90s. SWCCG had me, sure. But I read Scrye. So I was aware of a lot of those other early games, were there was still a lot of fascinating innovation. Vampire: TES, Doomtown, Rage, Dune (god, do I want FFG to get the Dune license somehow), Star Trek CCG. I was aware of Netrunner, but then when the announcement hit that FFG was reviving Netrunner, I was instantly on board, because I was already sold on FFG's brand. 

 

While L5R will have a larger existing playerbase for the game, it still remains how well FFG will be retain them. The initial Netrunner announcement was met with some... dislike. But, I think FFG will be able to win a lot of new players. Will it supplant Netrunner, no likely. But, I wouldn't call it impossible. 

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With netrunner... It was great game that was broken from the beginning. It was one of the best sealed deck games, but when you started to make decks to it, it was totally badly broken.

The lcg version did keep the great game system and did fix that bad experience with custom made decks. And it just rocks!

L5R was much better game when building the decks. It did have its balance issues, but nothing as fatal as original Netrunner was suffering IMHO.

 

If I have to compare Netrunner and L5R systems, I think that Netrunner is more interesting and more unique among the card games, so I expect it to stay number one to far seeing future.

 

Hopefully L5R catch up reasonable player pool and does not die in two years. It has potential, but there newer in guarantee...

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With netrunner... It was great game that was broken from the beginning. It was one of the best sealed deck games, but when you started to make decks to it, it was totally badly broken.

The lcg version did keep the great game system and did fix that bad experience with custom made decks. And it just rocks!

L5R was much better game when building the decks. It did have its balance issues, but nothing as fatal as original Netrunner was suffering IMHO.

 

If I have to compare Netrunner and L5R systems, I think that Netrunner is more interesting and more unique among the card games, so I expect it to stay number one to far seeing future.

 

Hopefully L5R catch up reasonable player pool and does not die in two years. It has potential, but there newer in guarantee...

i never played netrunner but that game must have been GODAWFUL if you could build a deck more environment deforming that kalani's landing

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I hope this game does well. I really do. My only experience with Rokugan was from D&D 3E with the Oriental Adventures handbook. I loved it. We played that homebrew campaign for 5 years. Some of my fondest RPG memories are from L5R... that said, I don't want anything to take away from Netrunner. It is my all time favorite game and a big part of my life. I will definitely buy the core set and the packs for L5R, but Netrunner speaks to my soul. Cyberpunk gives me hope for the future- Asian fantasy is just a fun distraction. 

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Game of Thrones, Lord of the Rings, Cthulhu, Star Wars* and Cyberpunk fluff (Netrunner) have larger fan bases than Rokugan.  However, FFG has the bandwidth to support and grow the L5R line even if it is #5-6 on the list.

 

 

 

*Even though the card based Star Wars LCG is sucky the X_Wing franchise is really just another LCG made with plastic molds so for the purpose of this discussion it is the representative LCG for Star Wars.

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I am personally ecstatic about the sale to FFG, every product I have purchased from them has been worth the money. The quality and design of their games places them as an industry leader imo.

AEG had a good run, but in the end, me and my friends stopped playing due to some poor choices the company made along the way. The first and foremost was the considerable amount of money needed to stay competitive and get what you liked from the cards.

The LCG model is highly regarded in our play group and it is a large portion of the decision to purchase it when it is released.

Games like Star Wars and A Game of Thrones already have strong elements which easily can be correlated to legacy L5R (objectives = provinces, edge battles = iajutsu duels, units = personalities). While I know that there will not be a direct correlation to one of their existing games straight to L5R, I feel confident that they will make the mechanics work while keeping to the old design. 

 

In summation I honestly feel that this game will be popular, and even if it is not, myself and friends are still planning on playing it. Which in the end is all that matters to me.

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Game of Thrones, Lord of the Rings, Cthulhu, Star Wars* and Cyberpunk fluff (Netrunner) have larger fan bases than Rokugan.  However, FFG has the bandwidth to support and grow the L5R line even if it is #5-6 on the list.

 

I bet the L5R LCG launch has more players than any launch of those other games. :D

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