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17th Knight

The Big Question - Which Clans Make The Cut?

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Losing the ability to run to daddy Daigotsu (seriously, no other clan can claim to have ever had a direct phone line to their founding kami, much less the god of a realm), and losing the ability to treat the Taint like their personal power-up tool (it's meant to be something horrifying and dehumanizing), would certainly put them in the same playing field as the other Clans and get them accepted.

 

 

I find this assertion more than a little ironic, given the opposite was actually a complaint a lot of spider had. To my knowledge, and i could be mistaken but i don't believe i am, Daigotsu has been shown to answer the prayers of his followers once. It was even been commented upon that he was unusually silent in responding the prayers of his followers, including his son. In this, i think, Daigotsu operated much as the other Kami did, staying generally removed from his clan. 

 

On the taint i actually agree with you, do a certain degree. I love that taking the taint means entering into a compact with Daigotsu. Theres a kind of twisted religious aspect there that i think is appealing. But i also really liked the existential horror of the old taint, the idea that the your soul was DONEZO the minute you touched the taint, and while thats still in theory the case, its been really downplayed. i'll be curious to see what FFG does with it now that they've got a hold of the setting. 

 

I'm a pretty huge Daigotsu fanboy, so i'm really curious what they'll do with him. He's kind of had his time, and i doubt they're going to retcon any of the history, so i'm not really worried, so much as curious how they're going to go forward. The spider players will be the first to admit that the way things are is SUUUUPPPPERRRRR wonky and borderline nonfunctional. We were no more fans of being handed the throne in onyx than anyone else, and while i think its an... lets go with interesting.... solution to the problem, i wouldn't use the word good. I certainly didn't like our prospects in the edition after onyx. So i'm SUPER interested to see what FFG has planned for us. I really hope we stick around. The shadowlands are an integral part of this game, so i'm sure we'll be there in some way, but i have to say i wouldn't bet the farm on the Spider being the face of the shadowlands much longer. I do, however, think Daigotsu is staying Dark Lord. I think thats probably too big a bit of plot to walk back, whatever its popularity may be, so whatever the Shadowlands ends up being, whatever the Taints ends up being, i think there will still be tainted samurai bearing the name of Daigotsu, in some function or another, and im moderately certain he won't be leaving Jigoku any time soon. 

 

thats my thoughts anyway. 

Edited by cielago

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Back on the original topic--not that the discussion of Yugioh was not fascinating and all--

 

I see no reason that a reorganization of the 'core' clans could not be accomplished with some interesting twists that could play into the following's love of story.  How about, instead of dumping the "obvious" choices--Spider and Mantis (because those are ALWAYS the folks suggested to dump)--they keep them as the representatives of the "bad guys" and the "little guys" respectively and remove another clan or two to be brought in later expansions?

 

During the discussions of the Onyx Choices, a couple of clans were particularly vocal about envying the Mantis their proposed destruction, so their player supporters might take well to having their faction reserved for a future return (with suitable story support).  The Dragon had a decided lack of direction in their Onyx votes (and in story failed at their task from the Empress to "civilize" the Spider), so . . . why not send them off on a spiritual journey of some kind and bring them back in a Dragon-like sudden return during an expansion?  Ditto for the Phoenix, who, let us admit, have had a bit of focus confusion for a few years.  Let them with draw to contemplate their path only to return . . . to save the day by doing . . . whatever it is that the Phoenix actually decided they wanted to do.

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You don't have a Kami, you are not a clan: Scorpion (Bayushi), Crane (Doji), Dragon (Togashi), Phoenix (Shiba), Lion (Akodo), Unicorn (Shinjo) and Shadowlands (Fu Leng). I could stand an eight neutral for Hantei XD

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The Dragon had a decided lack of direction in their Onyx votes

 

The top Dragon choice got 42% of the vote, which was the third-highest percentage for the winning choice out of the nine Clans (Crab and Unicorn weighed in at 48% and 47%, respectively). That 42% was double the next most popular Dragon choice. I'm not sure why one would conclude that the Dragon voting produced a lack of direction.

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L5R avatars are up, and they're the clan mons.

 

I wouldn't want to read *too* much into this, but there are 9, including spider and mantis.

 

Excellent! 

 

As for staying on topic - there's an awful lot of speculation, emotion, and from a good many a sense of entitlement that seems a bit absurd to me, about the state and direction of the game. I hate to be the person to say "wait and see", but really that's all we can do. On FB, the L5R Brand Lead explained that this happened very fast, and that they were going to be releasing more details this week. FFG is GOOD at LCGs.  I don't think they would spend this kind of money on an IP and NOT do their research to make it the best they can make it - or intentionally neglect a large portion of the playerbase. Sit back, be patient, and relax. The answers will come. In the meantime... Big Deck!

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Excellent! 

 

As for staying on topic - there's an awful lot of speculation, emotion, and from a good many a sense of entitlement that seems a bit absurd to me, about the state and direction of the game. I hate to be the person to say "wait and see", but really that's all we can do. On FB, the L5R Brand Lead explained that this happened very fast, and that they were going to be releasing more details this week. FFG is GOOD at LCGs.  I don't think they would spend this kind of money on an IP and NOT do their research to make it the best they can make it - or intentionally neglect a large portion of the playerbase. Sit back, be patient, and relax. The answers will come. In the meantime... Big Deck!

 

 

This is pretty much the best advice you can get at this moment on this subject. 

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I really would like idea of 9 Clans, 1 Guest Faction Of The Week, and Banners/Alliances System. While for many people idea of "having to share an alliance with someone" might be annoying due to potentially harder mono-clanism, I actually find this a very interesting chance, especially if (I'm not very big on LCG design, so I'm not sure if it's possible) these Alliances could be changed with time. 

Basically, each Clan would have one ally at the time - this would allow FFG to explore Clans in interesting formations, and remind people that in world of politics, you need friends...and sometimes, these friends are the most unlikely ones. How exactly does Crane/Lion alliance work? Why are they together? What made them buddy up, even if for a moment? 

This is also a good way to get people interested in more than one Clan; "I started playing for Crab, and never thought that Scorpion might be fun, but under Pincer Alliance, I've looked at Crab from an angle I would never consider and they are actually fun!" etc.

And I guess, after some time passes, you will be actually to make full mono clan deck working, too, as the pool becomes bigger? 

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You don't have a Kami, you are not a clan: Scorpion (Bayushi), Crane (Doji), Dragon (Togashi), Phoenix (Shiba), Lion (Akodo), Unicorn (Shinjo) and Shadowlands (Fu Leng). I could stand an eight neutral for Hantei XD

 

 

Us Spiders have something better: Daigotsu, master of Jigoku!

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You don't have a Kami, you are not a clan: Scorpion (Bayushi), Crane (Doji), Dragon (Togashi), Phoenix (Shiba), Lion (Akodo), Unicorn (Shinjo) and Shadowlands (Fu Leng). I could stand an eight neutral for Hantei XD

 

 

Us Spiders have something better: Daigotsu, master of Jigoku!

Daigotsu is only worth cleaning Fu Leng's nails ;)

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Daigotsu is even more powerful than Fuleng cause he did 2 things fo Leng never could. Frist deafeat Kali Ma with a handwave adn second conquer the realm of evil. So Daigotsu clearly is superior to Fu Leng and therefore the Spider have at minimum a Kami if not even more. 

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I really would like idea of 9 Clans, 1 Guest Faction Of The Week, and Banners/Alliances System. While for many people idea of "having to share an alliance with someone" might be annoying due to potentially harder mono-clanism, I actually find this a very interesting chance, especially if (I'm not very big on LCG design, so I'm not sure if it's possible) these Alliances could be changed with time. 

Basically, each Clan would have one ally at the time - this would allow FFG to explore Clans in interesting formations, and remind people that in world of politics, you need friends...and sometimes, these friends are the most unlikely ones. How exactly does Crane/Lion alliance work? Why are they together? What made them buddy up, even if for a moment? 

This is also a good way to get people interested in more than one Clan; "I started playing for Crab, and never thought that Scorpion might be fun, but under Pincer Alliance, I've looked at Crab from an angle I would never consider and they are actually fun!" etc.

And I guess, after some time passes, you will be actually to make full mono clan deck working, too, as the pool becomes bigger? 

 

While alliances can help in the short term, I'd rather the focus at the beginning be the individual clans. I'd especially wouldn't want a clan to ally with just any other clan. Alliances in the world are usually pretty short lived so having cool story based (and specific) alliance cards would be nice. 

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Daigotsu is even more powerful than Fuleng cause he did 2 things fo Leng never could. Frist deafeat Kali Ma with a handwave adn second conquer the realm of evil. So Daigotsu clearly is superior to Fu Leng and therefore the Spider have at minimum a Kami if not even more.

Power does not equate status. The first Oni killed Shiba, but that doesn't mean he gets his own dance crew,

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Daigotsu is even more powerful than Fuleng cause he did 2 things fo Leng never could. Frist deafeat Kali Ma with a handwave adn second conquer the realm of evil. So Daigotsu clearly is superior to Fu Leng and therefore the Spider have at minimum a Kami if not even more.

Power does not equate status. The first Oni killed Shiba, but that doesn't mean he gets his own dance crew,

 

The difference is that Fu Leng gave forth his power to his "Little Brother" willingly, on top of which Daigotsu didn't just defeat Kali Ma, he consumed her. So Daigotsu possess the power and authority of one Kami, as well as the power of a foreign god (kali-ma). This is all separate from his role as the Lord of Jigoku, which no doubt comes with its own perks and benefits (comfy chair, big screen tv, control of the taint, ability to make Dark Fortunes, etc). 

 

Don't get me wrong, Fu Leng was a baller. But Daigotsu, and you can think whatever you like about the circumstances under which it occurred, ended up the divinely superior entity. 

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I think Clan-wide alliances could be overwrought in some cases as well.

 

You have a Crane-Crab-Horde conflict that the Lion, Phoenix, and Mantis aren't involve with? That's fine. Don't give them decks for that cycle. Don't shoe-horn an alliance in there. Let the allies be personal allies in the storyline. A Phoenix Inquisitor working with the Crab to hunt down a Maho Tsukai. A Mantis mercenary captain hired by the Crane. A Lion Samurai called to battle by his brother-in-law to honor his sister's marriage to the Crab Champion - all that sort of stuff works really well.

 

Marty Lund

Monkey Clan * Random * Grognard

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I know theres a lot of hate for the spider, but heres the thing: spider has the most active fanbase of all the clans, and if they hadn't spend the last 5 years being mechanically crippled by terrible design they likely would have been the most popular. so relegating them to the bottom of the list doesn't make a lot of sense if you're trying to bring over as many of the legacy fans as possible. this all presupposes that they're not using the onyx plot, where the spider having taken over the empire and are ruling it. 

This post seems like mostly rhetoric.

Most active fanbase? Says whom? You? A spider fanatic? Sure ok.

Last 5 years being mechanically crippled? Weren't 2 of those 5 years were Spider wins at Gencon?

I just can't take a post like this seriously.

FFG can do whatever they want with the property. This is a fact.

However, it would be in their best interest to attract the most number of players. Starting a new game over with new mechanics will be hard to win a playerbase. Their choices boil down to either:

1. maintain the clans but base it off of AEG's story

2. modify the clans but base it off of AEG's story but fast forwarded to a certain point

3. do whatever FFG wants for maximum potential new player attraction

At this point, my guess is that a business FFG wants to maintain some of the AEG playerbase, so they won't choose option 3, or "do whatever they want". But also from that same business perspective, maintaining what AEG had isn't cheap to produce, design and balance, so I also think #1 is most likely, although not definitively out the door.

Option 2, or having FFG fast forward the story seems most likely to me.

Mantis were already told they were going bye-bye.

Spider were already told they were getting some power over the Empire.

It doesn't seem unreasonable for FFG to continue with both of those implication set by AEG, but at they same time they might just scrap everything and start over.

Imagine Disney buying Star Wars. Would they really want to alienate the fan base and do a movie or series about something none of the fans know about, like 5000 years in the past of the current story? No. Disney wants to make as much money as possible, so they chose to make what the fans really want: a continuation of the previous storyline. I don't see how FFG is going to act much differently from Disney. 

At the same time, also keep in mind that FFG has control over the RPG as well. It's easier to sell RPG books and such if they can combine ideas and concepts previously sold for L5R. (That's assuming they continue the RPG business.)

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The Dragon had a decided lack of direction in their Onyx votes

 

The top Dragon choice got 42% of the vote, which was the third-highest percentage for the winning choice out of the nine Clans (Crab and Unicorn weighed in at 48% and 47%, respectively). That 42% was double the next most popular Dragon choice. I'm not sure why one would conclude that the Dragon voting produced a lack of direction.

 

Because that's the way it appeared to me with all the writing/rewriting debating about their options.  That the eventual vote ended up fairly even doesn't remove the fact the Dragon were rather heatedly annoyed about their options in the first place, and many of them--perhaps not you, but many--were the ones claiming they'd have loved to be the group with the Mantis option of being destroyed and restoring themselves.

 

That being said, one of the reasons I picked the Dragon and Phoenix for later expansions was I was thinking they shared the common issue of "Enlightenment," and Enlightenment has always been the "odd win condition."  If they were removed for a time, it would allow extra time to get the idea of how to incorporate Enlightenment into the LCG format more smoothly and (re)introduce it with two viable candidates to pursue it.  Of course, my experience with LCG is that it tends to favor military-type confrontation win conditions.  I admit, my experience with it is somewhat limited, so that might be working from a false assumption in the first place.

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During the discussions of the Onyx Choices, a couple of clans were particularly vocal about envying the Mantis their proposed destruction, so their player supporters might take well to having their faction reserved for a future return (with suitable story support).  The Dragon had a decided lack of direction in their Onyx votes (and in story failed at their task from the Empress to "civilize" the Spider), so . . . why not send them off on a spiritual journey of some kind and bring them back in a Dragon-like sudden return during an expansion?  Ditto for the Phoenix, who, let us admit, have had a bit of focus confusion for a few years.  Let them with draw to contemplate their path only to return . . . to save the day by doing . . . whatever it is that the Phoenix actually decided they wanted to do.

 

The Phoenix fan-submitted choices came in 1st and 2nd in their votes, and were not mutually exclusive. Let's not confuse AEG's lack of tempting options with the Phoenix as a Clan lacking an identity and direction. We'd picked a direction.

Similarly, the Dragon seem to have hacked through the tangle they'd been placed in and settled on something flavorful and apropos.

As one of the people who expressed envy of the Mantis, let us not forget that said envy was also expressed before player-submitted paths had been picked up and approved.

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I know theres a lot of hate for the spider, but heres the thing: spider has the most active fanbase of all the clans, and if they hadn't spend the last 5 years being mechanically crippled by terrible design they likely would have been the most popular. so relegating them to the bottom of the list doesn't make a lot of sense if you're trying to bring over as many of the legacy fans as possible. this all presupposes that they're not using the onyx plot, where the spider having taken over the empire and are ruling it. 

This post seems like mostly rhetoric.

Most active fanbase? Says whom? You? A spider fanatic? Sure ok.

Last 5 years being mechanically crippled? Weren't 2 of those 5 years were Spider wins at Gencon?

I just can't take a post like this seriously.

 

 

The spider's mechanical woes are common knowledge. with the exception of breeder during celestial, a single deck (god bless you Ornatov), spider has not been competitive (we've picked up a few wins here and there, more in 20f) since its inception. thats just fact. on top of its unimpressive tournament results, its been more or less LOST, design wise, for most of that time, a fact that is widely and commonly acknowledged (oh hello cloud tokens, you sad sad things). this isn't partisan spider speaking. even the people who hate the spider feel bad for how crapawful we've been. thats how pathetic it is. when your enemies pity you, thats sad. the irony of the game ending right now is Evil Portents is the first time, since breeder, that we've gotten an entire batch of legitimately good cards. 

 

ive answered the first part elsewhere

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Okay, since the Enlightenment folks find it difficult to imagine they might be the ones to wait for expansion . . . why not the court people? 

 

Honor/Dishonor is not as odd a win condition as Enlightenment, but it's still not as easy to balance/reproduce as a straight military win condition.  So . . . the Scorpion and Crane could be pulled out for a later expansion with the intention of their focus on the courts coming in after the military issues.  For that matter, ANY clan whose primary identity is not military could be left out to begin with and brought in gradually with the individual win conditions being refined and added after they have proper consideration.

 

And my overall point is that FFG doesn't have to bring back all nine (ten, thirteen, etc...) factions at once or introduce them in the same order that AEG introduced them in the first place.  There are viable reasons to hold out various groups to bring in later for very specific reasons that could meet both the mechanics and the story needs.

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