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17th Knight

The Big Question - Which Clans Make The Cut?

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There is a lot of anxiety around the change, and so much is unknown.  I'm emotionally involved in my clan of choice because I've invested 15 years of energy into fighting for it, rooting for it, and crying on shoulders when it performed poorly.  I've loved to thwart the Crane, nettle the Crab, antagonize the Lion, and to come to love it when they did the same to us.  I don't see it too much differently than my dad's fanaticism at an LSU game.    

 

I understand the concerns that clan loyalty can cause some tunnel vision.  In the end, clan loyalty to the clan is passion for a piece of the IP that resonates with me.  The idea that it could be on the chopping block causes a real emotional reaction.  My biggest hope is that these fears are unfounded, FFG brings the major clans back in an appropriate way, and that I can share my love of the [scorpion/Crane/Lion/Crab] with a new player who never would have found the game under AEG.   

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Actually, they did "just buy the setting" - literally. There are fans that follow the setting, but FFG didn't acquire them in the purchase, nor does FFG owe them anything in particular. It's an opportunity.

 

 

I think there is a serious flaw in your analysis, and it boils down to this sentence. You can buy all the IPs you want, all the settings in the world... but without a fan base that purchases the products from that IP/Setting, all you have is a very expensive name on a piece of paper. It's like I said earlier: 

 

They bought it to try and bring the existing L5R playerbase to them, and they expect that the revenue this playerbase generates will justify the purchase.

 

 

If you want, we can speak in terms of FFG needing to convince said player-base to continue purchasing the products in this setting, rather than say FFG owes them something... but that's ultimately semantics, as the end result is the same: the products needs to be appealing enough and have enough connections to the past so that the current player-base (which is not small, far from it) decides to continue spending their money on the L5R IP.

 

EDIT: And let's keep one other thing in mind - FFG must know that, the 2 year gap and the move from CCG to LCG will cost them a portion of the existing player-base, arguably a sizable one. One can only speculate that they considered that they would gain enough buyers from their existing customers (already used to and fans of the LCG model) to overcome this loss. But it's a delicate balancing act, and that balance can quickly go bad if too many "old folks" decide to just throw in the towel.

Edited by Bayushi Karyudo

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My biggest hope is that these fears are unfounded, FFG brings the major clans back in an appropriate way, and that I can share my love of the [scorpion/Crane/Lion/Crab] with a new player who never would have found the game under AEG.   

Every clan is a major clan for somebody. Every clan was the one that someone, somewhere, started with. Somewhere, there's a guy sitting on his Spirits and counting the days to the relaunch, hoping that they'll return.

 

I mean, I truly hope you do find a piece of the property that resonates with you in the new game. If it's one of the 7 great clans at the game's launch, it'll *probably* be there for you. I might even bet a trivial amount of money. The nonhuman factions? The clans that were later promoted? Maybe not as likely. If your clan is one of those clans, I hope you find something new about the game that speaks to you.

 

But 13 factions is just too many when you're only getting in the neighborhood of 250 cards a year.

Edited by BD Flory

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I know theres a lot of hate for the spider, but heres the thing: spider has the most active fanbase of all the clans, and if they hadn't spend the last 5 years being mechanically crippled by terrible design they likely would have been the most popular. so relegating them to the bottom of the list doesn't make a lot of sense if you're trying to bring over as many of the legacy fans as possible. this all presupposes that they're not using the onyx plot, where the spider having taken over the empire and are ruling it.

I'd like to see your numbers.

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You want a great game. That is understandable. It is perfectly rational and good. But some of us want L5R. There are tons of great games out there, tons of games that have good mechanics, but L5R is L5r. And I realize that the masses tend to be unreasonable, that there will always be people that aren't happy. You can't please everyone. But just as FFG owes us nothing, we owe them nothing. If people don't like what they make, they won't return. I know what drove me to this game was its strong sense of community. And I am not an old player, I wasn't around when AEG cut any faction, although I expect if I were around in the beginning I would have been rather annoyed when they cut the Naga, just as I was when they announced they were going to be cutting back, not even entirely but just reducing heavily, the Mantis, and I don't even identify with the Mantis. I just felt horrible for them. You say that this is bad for the game, but it is my opinion, and it is what drew me to the game and kept me playing and buying cards.

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After 10 (may be more)  years of playing l5R (I started with diamond edition), I think that the l5r license being bought by ffg was the best thing that could have happenned for the future of  l5R card game. It's a great opportunity to reboot and totally revamp a game which had a very nice setting but clearly outdated rules and mechanisms.

 

I don't think card games should be influenced by players when it comes to : rules, faction balance and card design/nerf. To be honest, I am tired of all the clan lobying in the internet trying to take some advantages here and there.

 

 

- Keep the old core clans (lion, scorpion, crane, dragon, crab, phoenix) but don't make the player himself make allegiance to one. The player could make allegiance to greater principles like (as exemples : Good, evil, conservatism, reformism) through a sensei (or whatever) and then pick the personalities he needs to win the game among several clan peeps. And also get rid of nezumi/naga and over non human as factions. May be as neutral/unalligned good personalities they could be given some love but not more. And also spider/shadowland shoulb be a recursive threat alway present trying to corrupt the game instead of a faction.

 

- Keep at least 3 victory conditions : illumination, military and may be political replacing honour/dishonour but with two opposite ways to achieve it (honorably or dshonorably).

 

That's my two cents.

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My biggest hope is that these fears are unfounded, FFG brings the major clans back in an appropriate way, and that I can share my love of the [scorpion/Crane/Lion/Crab] with a new player who never would have found the game under AEG.   

Every clan is a major clan for somebody. Every clan was the one that someone, somewhere, started with.

 

I mean, I truly hope you do find a piece of the property that resonates with you in the new game. If it's one of the 7 great clans at the game's launch, it'll *probably* be there for you. I might even bet a trivial amount of money. The nonhuman factions? The clans that were later promoted? Maybe not as likely. If your clan is one of those clans, I hope you find something new about the game that speaks to you.

 

But 13 factions is just too many when you're only getting in the neighborhood of 250 cards a year.

 

That's my hope too.  For the next two years the best we've all got is idle speculation - unless FFG decides to lay some of our questions to rest.  I'm trying to stay optimistic, but cautiously so.  I want nothing more than to be here laughing two years from now about how paranoid we all were about X and Y and Z happening.  I'm looking forward to having FFG get me excited for the game all over again and running into old and new friends at Gencon 2017.  I'm going to start saving now.  I'll challenge you to a match if I see you there.

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  I'm going to start saving now.  I'll challenge you to a match if I see you there.

 

 

Aw. :) I haven't been to a GenCon since I stopped working in the industry.

 

But maybe!

 

(Although as an aside, I wonder if FFG will be moving the big L5R events to their World Championship Weekends? I assume so.)

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  I'm going to start saving now.  I'll challenge you to a match if I see you there.

 

 

Aw. :) I haven't been to a GenCon since I stopped working in the industry.

 

But maybe!

 

(Although as an aside, I wonder if FFG will be moving the big L5R events to their World Championship Weekends? I assume so.)

 

I was just going by the press release that said the release would be at Gencon 2017.  It's possible I misread, but I'm going to be watching news on development like a hawk, and plan to be there at release if it looks like the L5R I loved (meaning the spirit of it all).  

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I was just going by the press release that said the release would be at Gencon 2017.  It's possible I misread, but I'm going to be watching news on development like a hawk, and plan to be there at release if it looks like the L5R I loved (meaning the spirit of it all).  

 

 

 

Yeah, I expect they'll make the announced release. It just made me wonder about the big annual events.

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If any Clans are to be cut, I would expect it to be the Spider and/or the Mantis.  In the case of the Mantis, that may even be designed as a temporary removal (much as the Onyx storyline looked to be aiming towards).

 

Worrying about removed Clans before FFG has whispered so much as an iota of their plans, though, and with two years before the game sees life again; won't that be the fast track to a good deal of quite possibily unnecessary anxiety?

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I know theres a lot of hate for the spider, but heres the thing: spider has the most active fanbase of all the clans, and if they hadn't spend the last 5 years being mechanically crippled by terrible design they likely would have been the most popular. so relegating them to the bottom of the list doesn't make a lot of sense if you're trying to bring over as many of the legacy fans as possible. this all presupposes that they're not using the onyx plot, where the spider having taken over the empire and are ruling it.

I'd like to see your numbers.

 

 

clan dinner and clan forum. the clan dinner numbers are, unfortunately, on the AEG forum which isn't up right now but it was the largest by a good number. the spider clan forum is the most active as well. 

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Well, I always prefer hard data in contrast to subjective one such as dinner attendance or forum activity, so.... here goes:

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1tpVIYsMur1SzGKPITUnISzWbSOgq-0Q3Y-wGJtcNbUg/edit?usp=sharing

 

Yes, the Spider were the most common sight in the Spring Kotei season.... by 0.81%. Looking at the numbers, if there's one conclusion to be had is that the playerbase is rather well distributed among all the existing factions, not that Spider has the largest playerbase by a good number.

 

My thanks to Mauziz from Strange Assembly: http://www.strangeassembly.com/2015/2015-kotei-attendance-a-historical-look

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I'd really prefer if they keep all of the Clans, as they stand right now in L5R. The community is grown enough to put much value into them. Cutting out almost seems like an exercise in picking favourites, which is never a good route to take.

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Still fingers crossed for Naga still coming back. Maybe they could be rolled in with Ratlings/spirits/other nonhumans if space is an issue.

I would love to see Naga and Ratlings return. LOVE it!!!!! Naga + Ratlings + Shadowlands

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One of the biggest challenges I think FFG will face is that I've never seen a game with more faction loyalty than L5R.  I think that if they underestimate that, they'll be in for a surprise.  I can already say that I probably won't buy a set that doesn't have the Scorpion Clan in it.  I'm sure there are people who feel the same way about each of the clans.  I mean I was pretty frustrated and bummed that I couldn't put a banner in my signature or make my profile picture my mon, if they go axing or combining Clans, what will that be like?  

You have a great point, without Scorpion or Crane and the honor/dishonor victory conditions i would be hard-pressed to care about the game.

 

BUT!!!! AEG was happy to wipe people out in the past.

Shadowlands: Gone.

Ratlings: Gone (that knocked me out of playing the game for 2 years)

Naga: Gone

 

I know those aren't "clans", but they may as well have been. 

 

Clan loyalty is everything in L5R...but that's also what makes their rise and fall so powerful in the game. 

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BUT!!!! AEG was happy to wipe people out in the past.

 

 

Notably, when they bought the game from Wizards. They left out almost half the factions for Gold edition, which took a fairly long time to get out the door. It took Mantis almost a year to come back (under a new name). Another year after that Ratlings got a box. And that was it for a long time. Some of the abandoned factions got folded into the great clans, IIRC. Dragon got Monks. Scorpion got Ninja.

 

I remember the same discussions. Who's going to make the cut? Why should I play if my clan's gone? Etc.

 

Game went on to great success for quite a while, and here we are again.

 

The wheel turns.

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After reading the whole thread again my dream starter would be 8 factions:

  • Crab
  • Crane
  • Dragon
  • Lion
  • Phoenix
  • Scorpion 
  • Unicorn
  • Oynx Emperor (the Spider Clan after usurping the throne, having access to the the Imperial Bureaucracy and Shadowlands Monster, replacing the Spider Mon with a Black Chrysanthemum)

Because it would follow the current continuity of the CCG and would make for an interesting story line.

What do the Clans, which once send the 7 Thunders, do after they essentially lost?

It is essentially the problem, what does the Paladin do if the rightful Government is lawful evil.

 

And it would be one of the few scenarios where it does not hurt to have a powerful emperor, because the clans would want to rebel anyway.

 

Perhaps the Onyx Emperor can follow in an expansion and you just start with the 7 Thunder Clans.

That could be bundled together with the Mantis leading the Minor Clan Alliance because I would definitely not want to miss those guys.

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I would not be surprised if all the current ones stay in. If something gets cut it may be Spider.

 

I would not expect Rats or any of the old factions.

 

AGOT has 8 factions, Netrunner has 7 factions, so FFG is not afraid to release LCG with lot of starting factions.

 

 

FFG faces a tough choice : to release 9, 8 (all minus Spider) or 7 factions (all minus Spider and Mantis) at start. But I'm not afraid at all by it. Because starting factions and all the playable factions of a game are very different things. We already know we will have an extension with Shadowlands and Onis, that's obvious. We could have extensions for the Spider and the Mantis easily. And extensions for Ronins, Monks, Nezumis, Nagas...

 

I think that's part of what FFG liked in L5R : the depth of the storyline that they can dwell into to release really new stuff. You can already see all the hype all these special extensions would create.

 

FFG knows that they need to sustain the interest of its LCG for a long period of time and learned to keep some things in reserve (Tyranids and Necrons for Warhammer Conquest)...

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I've been playing Unicorn (Ki-Rin) since 1995. I like my Mongolian Horde analogue. They were one of the first six available clans and it is odd to see outsiders consider them second tier.

 

 

This so much.

 

Every Clan is so important. Trying to label ANY Clan as second tier seems like shoehorning beliefs. I guess I could say that the only Clans I would consider "second tier" are Mantis and Spider. But that is only because they came later. But if we are going to define Clans like that, then there is an argument for Scorpion to be second tier. And besides my obvious loyalty, the idea that Rokugan would be the same without them - or even recognizable - literally makes me scoff. 

 

Every Clan is so important.

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