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Galdred

What about the L5R RPG and other L5R products?

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Most of techniques in 4th Edition boil down to equivalent of "for this specific purpose, you act like your relevant trait was 1 higher than it is".

 

That's a vast oversimplification.

 

It is a simplification, I agree. Still, I think it's accurate one - most of techniques give you a bonus that is as efficient as having appropiate Trait higher by 1 than your current stat. This usually means that you either roll flat out +1k1, or that you get anywhere from 3 to 7 in flat numbers - because that's what, realistically/optimistically, you would be able to keep if you had one more dice to keep. After all, +5 or a Free Raise is pretty much "automatically rolling and keeping dice with 5 on it". In general, techniques that give you numerical benefit can be contested by having your trait "+1", as you noted. So this is a simplification that kind of agrees with your point about compensating for techniques with stats :P.

(Kakita technique is a special snowflake here, because it's vastly overstacked; the +1k1 on Focus Roll would be a perfect example, but the scaling bonus of +School Rank breaks "the rule"; still, for most of the game, it's more of a tie-breaker than anything else)

If you want to get little more complex, there are also techniques that give you a special ability of some kind, but they are both rarer, and harder to balance. 

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Hmmm... not quite sure I agree with that oversimplification. Sure, it applies to *some* Techniques, but not entire Schools. Some Schools are just more focused on a set of tasks (Kakita Bushi on duelling, Matsu Bushi on damage), while others are far more versatile in their abilities (Shiba Bushi, Daidoji Iron Warrior, Mirumoto Bushi). 

 

While I enjoyed the overly powerful silliness of 3rd edition, I will say that the streamlined system of 4th has grown on me and makes gameplay easier. Especially for the GMs. 

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Konnichi-wa, my fellow Rokugani!

I was completely caught by surprise when I read about the transition. I thought AEG would make loads of money with its L5R brand, especially with the great RPG 4th Edition, and I'd have rarely heard of FFG at all (though I was familiar with some of its brands). I enjoyed playing the L5R RPG since the time of the 2nd Edition, having played the 1st/2nd and 4th but I've also read books from the 3rd. I must admit, I never was a friend of the CCG, having bought only one starter set from the Ivory Edition - I like the idea of a LCG. To a fan who was surprised by the transition, when reading the announcements on both sides (AEG and FFG) two things stand out:

1. FFG seems to have experience with RPGs and according to some posts on this forum these guys do their job well - which I find reassuring.
2. There is no statement about the actual planning of L5R RPG's future, only a note that FFG has no details at the moment and will provide them when they have some - which I find much less reassuring!

As I mentioned before, to me L5R is the RPG and it feels like it was handed over to someone with no idea how to handle it and who has not really an interest to do it either. Like someone mentioned here earlier - whatever you do at FFG: Please keep the Roll & Keep D10 system! I love and play RPGs with the D20 system (D&D, Pathfinder etc.) and I even tried the D20 adaption of the L5R RPG but it pales in comparison to the well balanced Roll & Keep D10 mechanics. Also, please don't overthrow the whole flavour and crush the history of Rokugan based on tournament outcomes like AEG did. For example: The Hantei (family) should rule everlasting, because Rokugan without Hantei contradicts the Heavenly Order which is a fundamental part of Rokugani belief and its opponents fulfil their specific role as such (e.g. Gozoku).

Well, I fear for the worst and hope for the best!

Edited by Doji Takashi

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It is a simplification, I agree. Still, I think it's accurate one - most of techniques give you a bonus that is as efficient as having appropiate Trait higher by 1 than your current stat. This usually means that you either roll flat out +1k1, or that you get anywhere from 3 to 7 in flat numbers - because that's what, realistically/optimistically, you would be able to keep if you had one more dice to keep. After all, +5 or a Free Raise is pretty much "automatically rolling and keeping dice with 5 on it". In general, techniques that give you numerical benefit can be contested by having your trait "+1", as you noted. So this is a simplification that kind of agrees with your point about compensating for techniques with stats :P.

 

 

But looking only at the final number and ignoring the path you took to get there misses the point.

 

A character who gets a bonus to their damage based on their Honor is different from one who gets it based on their Iaijutsu skill rank is different from one who gets it based on their School Rank, and none of those are the same as getting it by having your Strength be one rank higher. It changes where you invest your XP, and it changes how you play your character. I really like it when bonuses are tied into other aspects of your sheet, because the synergy there creates story that a flat "+5 to your roll" does not. So even if the character with techs but low stats and the character with no techs but high stats roll the same result, they're getting there by different roads, and the difference is what makes the game interesting.

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Afternoon,

 

I'm formerly Shoju Genji from the AEG forums and I just poked my head in to see the chat. Looks like I'll have quite a few resources to move over here for people to look at for general viewing. luckily I keep most eveything in storage. with a fair amount of reference links for those who are interested.

 

One the potential L5R 5th edition, I would much refer the R&K system if at all possible as I have been running my Scorpion Victory campaign since 1st edition and change over would be...difficult. but as to dice. heck, just make some nice L5R themed d10s (my players have always expressed and interest in them). if R&K are kept, 4th, while perfectly servicable, could standa little tightening up in lay out and design. Plus I have more than full faith in FFG's ability to do something new with it

 

back later

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the big research page I use for  name and information mining

 

http://wiki.samurai-archives.com/index.php?title=Main_Page

 

research site

http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/

 

for those playing in early Rokugan

Heian Japan: An Introductory Essay   

http://www.colorado.edu/cas/tea/curriculum/imaging-japanese-history/heian/essay.html

 

index of offical docuuments from various periods

http://afe.easia.columbia.edu/tps/1450_jp.htm

 

http://www.colorado.edu/cas/tea/curriculum/imaging-japanese-history/medieval/pdfs/handout-M2.pdf

 

 

 

The Bushido Code: The Eight Virtues of the Samurai

http://www.artofmanliness.com/2008/09/14/the-bushido-code-the-eight-virtues-of-the-samurai/

Edited by TheWanderingJewels

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FFG makes good games at a high level of quality. The following is in regards to the unfortunate circumstances that some games in FFG's portfolio are in, should they not be a brand that receives a lot of attention.

The fact that FFG barely acknowledged the L5R RPG, has not setup an RPG forum like they have for the LCG and already know the release date for the LCG yet there isn't anything revealed for the RPG, leaves little reason to expect strong support for the RPG from FFG.

They'll probably release some books, but not at the scale that AEG has for each edition until now or what FFG produces for Star Wars. Overall, it doesn't appear to be of much interest to them. Further, they may recycle some tools used in their other RPGs to further reduce costs and time associated with any forthcoming RPG, such as reusing the game mechanics of Star Wars.

FFG makes quality products, but they have left other RPGs to wither if they aren't breakout earners. Anima is a current example of this.

If FFG makes a 5th edition, I hope that they continue to use Roll & Keep. The vast majority of L5R players seem to love 4th Edition and Roll & Keep. The Warhammer/Star Wars mechanics are, at the very least, controversial. You either love it or hate it. Roll & Keep doesn't suffer from that issue and is beloved by most of the people that are likely to purchase a 5th Edition.

If the system works beautifully, don't take any unnecessary risks by completely throwing out the unique and elegant mechanics to adopt something that will alienate many L5R fans. However, making some changes is to be expected in a new edition. There is still room for improvement and expansion in the 4th Edition rules.

Change up the setting and fluff all you want, as long as it is done tactfully. Having new fiction to delve into would be most welcome. Just leave the game's fundamental mechanics intact.

Also, separate the RPG fluff from the LCG. The LCG can have its own timeline/universe. The RPG could even have a living dynamic game element all it's own, like a Freeport, Sanctuary, Grayhawk or Raven's Bluff type of set of locations. However, they would need a distinct L5R flavor. It would be somewhat distinct from the rest of the standardized and more or less officially static setting, areas updated and added too annually, perhaps.

All of that said, it is nice to have a place on the publisher's website to post on L5R specific subjects. Maybe we'll get an RPG forum in the future.

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Well. for what it's worth, there are a few folks that work for FFG that are very much L5R fans, such as Katrina Ostrander, with whom I've had a couple of brief geeky conversations about Rokugan as well as the live-action RuroKen flicks (still haven't heard if she's had the chance to watch at least the first one).  So there are fans of L5R as an RPG setting in the company.

 

Now of course, that doesn't mean much of anything, and as it stands it could be that FFG is currently planning on letting the RPG field lie fallow for a bit.  Remember that they were pretty tight-lipped about having the Star Wars license, and didn't create forums for Age of Rebellion or Force and Destiny until the Betas for those two titles were on the very near horizon.

 

They've got plenty of experience with Living Card Games (Star Wars, LotR, Game of Thrones), so it likely won't be that difficult for them to transfer the L5R setting material to that format.  An RPG is something else, especially if they don't have the rights to the Roll&Keep system (wouldn't be surprised if that wasn't part of the purchase agreement).

 

Personally, I really dig the 4th edition of the L5R rpg, though sadly getting a group together to play it for any consistent length of time has proven remarkably difficult.  And compared to the mess that was L5R 3e, it's a pretty solid RPG.  Is it perfect?  Nope, but then there's such thing as the perfect RPG, and there never will be as folks tastes on what's good and what's not in an RPG vary wildly.

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I really like how the books for 4th turned out, but I'd agree that FFG will probably wait another few years before any 5th edition hits. The main reason might just be based on what the new time line/setting/story/whatever will be, as well as waiting for the LCG to establish that new brand.

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I really like how the books for 4th turned out, but I'd agree that FFG will probably wait another few years before any 5th edition hits. The main reason might just be based on what the new time line/setting/story/whatever will be, as well as waiting for the LCG to establish that new brand.

Yeah, gotta figure they're going to want to get their ducks in a row in regards to the details of the setting.  In particular how much of the recent CCG plotline they want to keep or discard.

 

Personally, I'd be glad if they deep-sixed the bulk of what happened after the Second Day of Thunder and create a setting that didn't have a metaplot and wasn't hitched to the wackiness of card game tourneys.

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The 4th edition wasn't perfect, like every RPG, but it was a very good edition. Why? Because of its simplicity. Some RPG are just heavy, while L5R 4th edition is really easy to learn and doesn't have too much bonuses from all over the book, like the 3rd edition... The Roll and Keep system is the system I like the most because you may have a strong character, still you can fail rolls that you think you'll succeed. Sure there's some mechanism that will help to prevent them, but you know that someday, the dice will go against you and simply fail to your doom.

 

As for the idea for the "Common Character Building Tree", I'm totally against that idea. The main reason is: Character identity. The whole L5R universe is build around the Clan identity, by removing clan school for a "Bushi school tree", you remove the Clan identity. Yes there is some balancement issues, the most obvious is the Bayushi Bushi but I don't feel like the game is based just around combat. Of course, you can pick a Bushi for the combat but this isn't a setting where you can play it as a "Kick in the door setting". When you have access to a common tree, you'll see less and less flavor in the character. Sure you can have some unique technique but if they are unbalanced, you'll see them a lot or not at all.

 

One thing I wouldn't be against is to have general schools. These schools may be accessible by all Clans because it is the common way, but they should have their very own flavor. I'm against mixing the flavors. In common life, you take karate, taekwondo or other martial arts, they all have their very own style. It is the same thing, to be able to learn better technique, you need to master the basis. I wouldn't understand why a "common bushi" could master the rank 5 Matsu Berserker technique without learning how to master the full attack stance properly. Most rank 5 techniques have a strong link with the lower rank techniques, sure there is some exception, but that's how it's done. I would like more alternate paths when you play a game mono-clan to prevent the "We have 2 bushi and they are copy/paste..." unless they take a different school or one of them plays an hostage. But this may be heavy for a core book...

 

One thing for sure, if L5R RPG 5th edition system is a D20 system... I will stick with the 4th edition, because I think that D20 system is one of the worst system, but that's my opinion and I don't want to explain why I hate it.

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One thing for sure, if L5R RPG 5th edition system is a D20 system... I will stick with the 4th edition, because I think that D20 system is one of the worst system, but that's my opinion and I don't want to explain why I hate it.

Why the heck would FFG make any 5th Edition a d20 system? They're not Wizards of the Coast, the era of Third Edition Open System D&D is over a decade gone. I swear half the posts in this thread occasionally sound like dogs woken up in the middle of the night making confused baying noises just because the dog down the street started doing it.

 

In most cases where they've bought the IP for an established RPG, they've kept the original rules for at least the first iteration (Warhammer 40K, Anima, etc.). Star Wars was their first major IP buy where they used new rules -- in this case, an adaptation of their decision-matrix dice pool system they used for when they had Warhammer Fantasy.

 

There's no major competing game system out there that uses AEG's roll and keep system, so it's possible they might keep L5R's RPG with the old system because it won't get confused for any other game out there. But by the same metric, all the press releases were very careful to say they bought the IP, not the mechanics. The card game release in particular reminded players that there will be sufficient changes to the game play that old cards will not be used with the new. And the FFG decision-matrix dice are a proven mechanic that is associated with them and work very well in narrative-control style games (adapting it to L5R would be very easy; you could even keep the flavor of stuff like calling raises without even changing the mechanics of the dice). So maybe they'll use them for that. Or maybe they'll have a new system.

 

There's at least two years to to wait until an RPG comes out, so fretting and posturing over what rules they're using seems a bit of a waste of energy. They'll use what they'll use. Given the relative sales of RPGs in the modern gaming market, Rokugan was not bought for the money Rokugani RPGing would bring in. If you're a fan of the setting, celebrate the setting and continue to come up with cool story ideas for your players. That's a lot better use of your energy than spending two years tied up into a ball because you're worried any given mechanic may or may not show up in a new RPG release. And like all RPG lines, the L5R one innately carries the curse of all RPGs that bedevils all RPG publishers: when you make a game that can tell open-ended stories, you really don't end up selling much after you sell the first rule book.

 

If nothing else, when FFG's L5R RPG comes out, it'll look positively gorgeous. Have you seen the graphic design they've done on their other lines?

Edited by Gaffa

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One thing for sure, if L5R RPG 5th edition system is a D20 system... I will stick with the 4th edition, because I think that D20 system is one of the worst system, but that's my opinion and I don't want to explain why I hate it.

Why the heck would FFG make any 5th Edition a d20 system? They're not Wizards of the Coast, the era of Third Edition Open System D&D is over a decade gone. I swear half the posts in this thread occasionally sound like dogs woken up in the middle of the night making confused baying noises just because the dog down the street started doing it.

 

 

I really like the part were you agree with me on the general schools and keeping the Clan's identity.

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It almost feels like some of the original community momentum has died off. 

 

Even if they're not going to post here, I'm starting to think that FFG needs to get some kind of regular update out and link to it, before the whole thing runs outs of steam.

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There is no actual place to discuss the l5r rpg so far since the AEG forums died. I finished the chapter on Thrane and Merenae of my guide to Gaijins but I have no idea where to post it to share it.

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Alright, I confess that a lot of the "Alarmist" tendencies I am seeing already popping up with reference to both Story concerns and RPG concerns were many of the reasons that I departed the broader community of L5R about 3 years ago.  I remained loyal to the brand and active behind the scenes in freelancing (and those of you who know my name will still see it in almost all of the fourth edition writers credits for the RPG).  I've never left, but something that has always been a very deep seated concern is the extremely aggressive and pro-active fear-mongering that tends to crop up over "What Could Happen."  

It would be lovely if we could settle down, take a chill pill collectively and just enjoy Fourth Edition for a year before we start worrying what FFG will be doing with a potential fifth edition.  I was proud and pleased to have participated with the creation of 4th Edition despite the occasional flaws (We're human, we err, no RPG system is perfect.).  However, I think that the current product line produced by AEG promotes a nearly complete offering for main-stream Rokugan gaming without major missing pieces as of the most recent supplementary material, so there is no immediate need for additional publications.

 

This being said, I would suggest that everyone collectively calm down and exhibit patience towards FFG in this regard.  Negotiations probably occurred during the summer, and FFG has only just 1 month ago announced that it has purchased rights to the CCG and RPG.  It has clearly stated that it has plans for the RPG, but has not stated what those will be.  It has also stated that the product line will be allowed to rest so that a complete product can be ready to go in 2017, Gen Con.

 

Now, here's kind of a clue for you guys looking at the gaming industry.  Entirely new product is generally not announced 2 years in advance.  Supplementary materials are also usually not written years in advance.  They are written with deadlines in mind based upon the current print schedule.  Out of respect for non-disclosure agreements I have signed, I won't ever discuss details, but expecting a corporation with as many active intellectual properties as FFG to publish its plans for the RPG on any level of detail not one, but two years ahead of time, and responding to the fact that this wasn't detailed when the intellectual property was first purchased, is ... let's just say a touch premature.  Moving from there to make wide-sweeping assumptions about what will happen because one intellectual property did not receive a drastically above expectation premature declaration is presumptuous.

 

The Long and Short is that you will probably not hear anything until next year GenCon, and formal announcements will wait until GenCon 2017 just like for the LCG that will be bandied at that time.  Discussions of the RPG will not hit even the most preparatory stages publicly until they begin beta-testing mechanics, and possibly when they put out calls for said beta testers.  However, given how tight of a ship FFG works with, both in Freelance and in Beta-Testing, do not expect lots of open calls like AEG did.  You may not hear much until about this time next year, if anything, and that's completely normal, and there's nothing to freak out about.

 

Me?  I relish the fact that FFG is taking their time with this.  It means that, regardless of what they have, they can put their muscle behind it with the quality employees that they have and actually dig in and make a solid product.  I would have been worried if they'd jumped an announcement of a new RPG line within 1 month of purchasing the intellectual property.  This is much more what you should expect from professionals in the field.  So, sit back, enjoy 4th Edition and relax.  Start a homebrew up for the next year, build up some brand loyalty and prep yourself for the coming fun.  You've got 2 years to enjoy the system that was the workmanship of AEG, just about enough time for a normal edition to reach about the end of its shelf life.  No new books to buy.  Just make some good use of the collection and keep your eyes peeled come around GenCon next year for hints.

 

And... again... please guys.  I love you.  But relax.  You all get so worked up sometimes.

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There is no actual place to discuss the l5r rpg so far since the AEG forums died. I finished the chapter on Thrane and Merenae of my guide to Gaijins but I have no idea where to post it to share it.

 

Hey, Okuma, you considered using Kyuden Mantis for this in the meantime?  I haven't been back in a few years, but I'm assuming some of the clan boards should still be active.  KM was always fairly strong and active, as the boards went, so it's a potential congregating point for this kind of fan material.

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There is no actual place to discuss the l5r rpg so far since the AEG forums died. I finished the chapter on Thrane and Merenae of my guide to Gaijins but I have no idea where to post it to share it.

There is an RPG Resources thread in this forum. Could perhaps stick it there?

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There is no actual place to discuss the l5r rpg so far since the AEG forums died. I finished the chapter on Thrane and Merenae of my guide to Gaijins but I have no idea where to post it to share it.

 

Hey, Okuma, you considered using Kyuden Mantis for this in the meantime?  I haven't been back in a few years, but I'm assuming some of the clan boards should still be active.  KM was always fairly strong and active, as the boards went, so it's a potential congregating point for this kind of fan material.

 

 

Not to pick on you particularly, Otomo Sukishi, but I think it's safe to say this is exactly what a lot of us are most concerned about at this point--not sky-is-falling concerns about FFG doing stuff with the game that we don't like, three years in the future, but the fact that at this moment there's no longer an obvious central point to ask questions and pool resources about the game we have right now.

 

It's nice that all the clan forums are still ticking along, but the number of separate questions that keep appearing--here, on the L5R Facebook group, etc--asking where the RPG forums have gone and/or wanting to know where to ask RPG questions now are surely enough to show the importance of having that central place. Okuma surely can post his stuff on Kyuden Mantis, or the Spider Clan board, or what-have-you, but will new players (yes, they still exist!) or older players who aren't already super into L5R's online community know to look there? Their first instinct will be to check with either AEG (no forums now, and if they reopen they may only be a locked archive) or FFG (where, depending on your perspective, RPG stuff is either getting lost among, or annoyingly cluttering up, the LGC talk that is actually supposed to be the subject of this subforum).  Without that, not only does it become a little less easy and fun for those of us already into the game to "just enjoy Fourth Edition for a year," it's also much more likely that potential new players who come looking for a few tips will perceive L5R 4E as abandonware and give up in favor of something else--I don't know about you, but I'd rather not lose those folks just because it may be a few years before we can expect to hear about any new edition.  

 

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I would like something more accessible than some rpg clan forums which aren't always nice to new people. For posting here, the file is 26 pages long and only two chapters have been finished. It would take many many posts to be posted here. if it is even allowed to post such work here.

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We could host something like a pdf on Strange Assembly, okuma, assuming it falls into the realm of permissible fan content. Or a big long blog post. Or both.

 

I have though about reactivating the Strange Assembly forums as a central fan L5R hub (well, the central hub is the Facebook group, but IMHO that serves a different role from a forum), but it's a pain and I have been unsure if there's enough demand to justify it. But any sort of longform written content is definitely something I can host.

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There is no actual place to discuss the l5r rpg so far since the AEG forums died. I finished the chapter on Thrane and Merenae of my guide to Gaijins but I have no idea where to post it to share it.

 

Hey, Okuma, you considered using Kyuden Mantis for this in the meantime?  I haven't been back in a few years, but I'm assuming some of the clan boards should still be active.  KM was always fairly strong and active, as the boards went, so it's a potential congregating point for this kind of fan material.

 

 

Not to pick on you particularly, Otomo Sukishi, but I think it's safe to say this is exactly what a lot of us are most concerned about at this point--not sky-is-falling concerns about FFG doing stuff with the game that we don't like, three years in the future, but the fact that at this moment there's no longer an obvious central point to ask questions and pool resources about the game we have right now.

 

It's nice that all the clan forums are still ticking along, but the number of separate questions that keep appearing--here, on the L5R Facebook group, etc--asking where the RPG forums have gone and/or wanting to know where to ask RPG questions now are surely enough to show the importance of having that central place. Okuma surely can post his stuff on Kyuden Mantis, or the Spider Clan board, or what-have-you, but will new players (yes, they still exist!) or older players who aren't already super into L5R's online community know to look there? Their first instinct will be to check with either AEG (no forums now, and if they reopen they may only be a locked archive) or FFG (where, depending on your perspective, RPG stuff is either getting lost among, or annoyingly cluttering up, the LGC talk that is actually supposed to be the subject of this subforum).  Without that, not only does it become a little less easy and fun for those of us already into the game to "just enjoy Fourth Edition for a year," it's also much more likely that potential new players who come looking for a few tips will perceive L5R 4E as abandonware and give up in favor of something else--I don't know about you, but I'd rather not lose those folks just because it may be a few years before we can expect to hear about any new edition.  

 

 

 

Regarding questions that you have for Fantasy Flight Games, this forum serves 'well enough' until we are at a closer point in time to the release date in two years.  Anything more is premature until there is an actual defined product for FFG to address.  Requesting board space prior to a reasonable time before product is released is premature.  

 

I would add that this board is generally intended for FFG's product line.  While, in principle, you could continue to discuss AEG product lines within the span of this board, it is worth remembering that the AEG product line will officially be closed as an RPG with its last publications.  This means that 'new players' are being brought into a currently back-dated product line.  In these situations, it is beholden upon the former company to decide whether or not it wishes to continue to support the product line in the future during any interim period.  Alderac Entertainment has made it pretty clear that it will be doing minimal, if any support while FFG is building.    Asking for FFG to support the product line of a competitor's title that they have only now purchased isn't necessarily logical business sense, and one would never expect for this to be done, because it generally is not done in the industry.  Period.  L5R is not somehow unique in this regard, so I would never expect FFG to address having an AEG product line's RPG forum up on its page two years prior to publication of any works it has intended for 2017.  A board would be expected to address mechanical questions, curiosities, etc of their future RPG when it is timely for them to do so, as it would be a forum centered around their title and production.

 

Honestly, the one who has dropped the ball here is my former employer on this one, and I would not pin any of this on FFG.  AEG has intentionally closed out its board and closed down any direct connection with a product line of 20 years.  Yes, part of this is almost certainly related to negotiations and FFG wanting to be sure that its intellectual property as purchased is protected, but a very large part of this is that AEG simply chose to close down the boards.  

 

Now, I will agree with you that this is not ideal.  Maintaining momentum through the clan boards was always dicey, even at the high point of clan board activities during the "Race for the Throne."  Some clans were simply less active and others were more active.  Centralizing this as fans in preparation for FFG's announcements, with the understanding of moving over to the FFG boards when the RPG board is posted might be a sensible alternative, as AEG has closed down any forum-based online support for its 4th edition product.  And yes, I do have opinions on that.  The inability to address questions of its own product lines most recently published does not exactly enamor me to some of the ways things were handled on AEG's end.  However, even as distant as I was to the product in the last few years, Sean and Rob retain my utmost respect, so I'm going to keep my opinions at that and look to the future in a positive sense.

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