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Galdred

What about the L5R RPG and other L5R products?

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The best thing to do right now is make sure the initial box is a hit.

 

Considering we have a two year wait for that...

 

You never know, it could have some fatal flaw and bomb.

 

A L5R LCG is going to be VERY similar to AGOT LCG.

 

Why would a new consumer pick up L5R as opposed to AGOT?

 

Better to let the initial box make some money before making side products. I still feel like most of the business "opportunities" of AEG is why we are having this conversation today.

 

For example at the last Gencon So Cal, L5R had a huge turnout. They were trying to promo a discwars product during that tournament and I think maybe three or four people tried it.

Edited by Granville

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Over 15 years ago, that wargame crashed and burned, but because they started way too ambitiously in a context where one miniature gaming company had the monopoly;

now, the community is a lot more diverse...I think that as a skirmish game that may evolve eventually to a large scale battle game, this game could make a come back (what's not to love about samurais, onis and dragons ?)

 

just my 2 cents.

 

 

I would like to see it in the vein of Imperial assault.

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I think its interesting they did get the rights to L5R, but not the rights to legend of the burning sands. I thought they were tied together

Did someone say they didn't get Burning Sands? (Honest question, not being sarcastic.)

 

It's part of the IP, but it's pretty minor in the scheme of things. It probably didn't bear mention in the larger press release. I don't think Clan War got name-checked, either, but I'm sure it's included.

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Sadly they did not get LBS, and for those who get confused as to if Theah and Rokugan are in the same rule the answer is yes, and no.  Basically they were designed to be the same rule when they first started, but when AEG sold the licence (temporarily) to WotC back around 2000, they had to make the worlds totally separate. That's when they started to drift apart. The Battle of White Stage was more defined as many years ago, Cathay was the east of Theah, and so on. That said, there is nothing saying that they couldn't be re integrated. The Big hurdle is the time line. The Battle of White Stag was defined as what, 600 years ago in Rokugan timeline. That would make Theah be....pretty much modern Europe. Unless you say that Cornejo and his fleet were lost in time "in the 7th sea' and actually went back 600 years before finding Rokugan. 

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At first I was pretty defensive about thought of saying goodbye to Roll & Keep, but the more I think about it, more I'm curious about  how FFG would tackle their own system. I like what I saw in Star Wars (haven't looked at Warhammer) and I definitely like idea of custom dices keyed off particular Rings and eliminating Traits altogether, putting more emphasis on Rings and what they mean instead. 

It would be also a great occasion to slay some sacred cows, like Shugenja and Bushi design principles; making Shugenja more priestish and less wizardish would be welcome, and offering Bushi some ability to actually be more wuxiaish without relying on specific techniques. Getting rid of the spell slot concept also would be very helpful, because I feel that Spell Slots are legacy mechanic borrowed from DnD that does not make much sense, and is often used as really terrible balancing tool where "it's okay that spells are super powerful, you can cast them only X times a day!". Per Day resources in games that are not about managing resources have pretty much no real balancing factor. 

As long as FFG L5R RPG allows character of any clan to be good at most of the stuff and has good GAME mechanics, I'll be in. By "good at most of the stuff" I mean that you don't need to be Kitsuki in order to be a good detective, or Kakita to be a good duelist; they should help, but not make you invincible in your field. 

And yes, I consider RPGs games and I feel that they should be designed like them; one reason why I was really irritated with RPG Design Team was constant insisting that RPGs are not games, with subtext of judging people thinking so as inferior type of players. 

 

EDIT

And If we were going with Star Wars style "roles and archetypes" Rulebooks, I feel that Magistrates Of The Empire would be perfect starting point; Magistrate Campaigns are easiest ones to provide for mixed Clan parties, and have enough freedom of movement (and action) to explore Empire as a whole, from many different angles. It could be a sourcebook with both Bushi and Courtier archetypes.

Monks and Shugenjas could come in Prayers of the Empire or something else, later :P

Edited by WHW

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I'm interested what their stand would be on online RPG sites like FiveRingsOnline and what support can be given.

 

Also on what other AEG products and personnel will be carried over to FFG side of the board.

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Well my source was Athenor in the earlier part of this forum, so your right, that could be just rumor. 

As for the R&K system, I am pretty happy with how FFG develops their systems, so if they want to keep, alter and expand upon it, I feel pretty good they would put out a quality product. As for a new system? They did a good job with Star Wars and WH40K RPG, and WH fantasy RPG. The only caveats I have is most people have two complaints. First is proprietary dice, second is numerous "core" games. If you worry that a system may not be good, do the Betas. They do respond well to the beta testers, as I can attest, when their new system for DH2 was not liked and had serious flaws, and the community complained, they scrapped it instead of putting out a bad product. They are a good company when it comes to divorcing their egos from their customer relations.

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I would love to have a game which incorporates this setting with a grand strategy approach. Similar to for example Shogun/Samurai Swords/Ikusa but with the totally unique flavour of each clan, politics in Otosan Uchi, economy building etc. Alderac had something like this planned but cancelled it (unfortunately):

 

https://boardgamegeek.com/images/boardgame/25931/legend-five-rings-art-war

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It would be also a great occasion to slay some sacred cows, like Shugenja and Bushi design principles; making Shugenja more priestish and less wizardish would be welcome, and offering Bushi some ability to actually be more wuxiaish without relying on specific techniques. Getting rid of the spell slot concept also would be very helpful, because I feel that Spell Slots are legacy mechanic borrowed from DnD that does not make much sense, and is often used as really terrible balancing tool where "it's okay that spells are super powerful, you can cast them only X times a day!". Per Day resources in games that are not about managing resources have pretty much no real balancing factor. 

As long as FFG L5R RPG allows character of any clan to be good at most of the stuff and has good GAME mechanics, I'll be in. By "good at most of the stuff" I mean that you don't need to be Kitsuki in order to be a good detective, or Kakita to be a good duelist; they should help, but not make you invincible in your field. 

And yes, I consider RPGs games and I feel that they should be designed like them; one reason why I was really irritated with RPG Design Team was constant insisting that RPGs are not games, with subtext of judging people thinking so as inferior type of players. 

 

EDIT

And If we were going with Star Wars style "roles and archetypes" Rulebooks, I feel that Magistrates Of The Empire would be perfect starting point; Magistrate Campaigns are easiest ones to provide for mixed Clan parties, and have enough freedom of movement (and action) to explore Empire as a whole, from many different angles. It could be a sourcebook with both Bushi and Courtier archetypes.

Monks and Shugenjas could come in Prayers of the Empire or something else, later :P

ALL OF MY LIKES!!!!!!!!

Seriously. This. So freaking much. I cannot tell you how much I've butted heads with the RPG design team over this.

Edited by Moretsuna

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Yes, please!
 

My biggest complaint with L5R at AEG was that they pretty much shelved the RPG and put just about all of their focus into the CCG. I am completely on board with the LCG that is coming out of this buy out, but if something doesn't happen with the RPG I will be pretty peeved. Partially being that I have not been able to get a decent GM Screen as AEG outsourced all the RPG stuff to drivthrurpg.com which only offered a pdf version of the screen, but mainly because I have really enjoyed the RPG as a whole over the years.

 

I am playing the Star Wars RPG with some friends right now. As much as I have enjoyed the 10k10 system of L5R, I have become more appreciative with the Triumph/Despair aspect. Though I still think that Critcal Success/Failure on the d20 is a little less confusing. I personally still try to add this concept into my games with the 10k10 system by devising how far above or below the TN they were, but then the likely hood of them critically failing is a lot less likely as their dice pool grows.

 

I like the experience/rank system in L5R a lot better then a lot of other systems I have seen, but the star wars system is similar enough that I am not to worried with what changes FFG would make. I think the health system could use an overhaul. Having to keep track of which wound bracket you are in always seems to be a pain for my players, and keeping track of all the NPC's in a battle can get brutal. Though I think the star wars health system is a little over simplified.

 

The main thing I would like to see changed is the weapons. The mod system used in the Star Wars RPG would be a good place to start. The main issue was that AEG didn't really give much variation to their weapons. Almost everyone is a samurai so everyone tends to have the same katana. They kinda hinted at allowing small variations, even giving a crafting skill for making your own weapons, but gave next to 0 guidance on how to alter anything. My main issue with this is that it made money, and loot rewards meaningless. So the only REAL way to reward players was through experience. Which just cranks their characters into super beings faster than you would like. On the plus side to that, it helped me make the focus of our games more on storyline than dungeon crawling. Which is the MAIN thing I love L5R for. There is so much to build into good storylines with.

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I would love to see a clan wars board game.  The setting practically begs for it and I am just having widget fits thinking of the beautiful map board that FFG could make for it.

 

Yeah, if they did an L5R version of Runewars or Twilight Imperium they would have my dollaridoos.

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Go little more mystic and instead of weapon mods, use similar mechanic to reflect synchronizing with your sword and attaining mastery with your Grandmas Katana. 

Also, critical success in R&K is actually non existent - main quirk of L5R system is that you are expected to raise high in order to achieve good effects with your rolls, so any mechanic that invites you to get positive effects for overshooting "for free" is counterproductive to inviting more Raises.

 

Raises are pretty iconic to L5R, and I think they can be reflected by special Raise dice. Raise dice that can result in you overworking yourself (threat result) and hitting that miracle shot at expense of spraining your ankle is VERY adequate.

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I really hope we aren't stuck with narrative dice for the L5R RPG

 

The roll&keep system is my personal favourite dice-rolling system, ever, and seeing it messed up by adding special die like Edge of the Empire has could only make it worse.

 

Please, please, at least to begin with, don't use special die, don't change the dice-rolling system, it is perfect as-is. Better than d20s, better than shadowrun dice pools, better than storyteller dice pools, better than FATE die, Better than GURPS 3d6s.

 

It was the system chosen by those who made Dungeons the Dragoning 40k as their means of dice rolling, at that game was entirely designed around taking he best bits from everywhere and smashing them together into one fangame.

 

 

So don't change it, change everything else if you must, but don't change the roll&keep system

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you can have narrative dice and keep the R&K system. consider the following. take a dice we can call fortune dice. when the result is 1-2-3 you have a negative consequence and 8-9-10 you have a positive consequence.

 

when a player make a dice pool there is one of them that is the fortune dice. for example, if a player want to slice an enemy kenjustu 4 and agility 3 still make a 7k3 and the fortune dice is one of them (with a different color). before the keeping step we watch the fortune dice for the effects, and after that the player can keep the dices he want even if the fortune dice is one of them.

 

or a GM can roll it behind the screen.

 

with that you can even imagine mechanics or technique that can add bonus or malus to this dice.

 

I would love to see a clan wars board game.  The setting practically begs for it and I am just having widget fits thinking of the beautiful map board that FFG could make for it.

me too, but i would like to see a system that is on a little scale. actual clan wars is on the same scale as warhammer and it's something you can play if you don't have enought place at home.

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R&K is far from perfect. It's very prone to swingy results; while it is a good and fun engine, it has it's own share of problems. And well, any it involves math that scales from 15ties into 60ties, which often produces wacky results. 

I really think that L5R could use special dice in creative and fun ways. And while yes, extra dice might be hard on the wallet, I personally am willing to pay for them if they are pretty and feel good in use :P. For example, I'm really excited by thought of having special Raise dices - calling Raises is definitely iconic for L5R, and it definitely should be represented somehow in any L5R rpg. 

Personally, I find Raise dice more exciting than increasing TN by 5; using special dice for it just feels more involved. Ditto for Void Point; adding Void Dice to a roll just would feel more majestic than simply adding +1k1.

Then again, I'm sucker for tokens, special dice and other paraphernalia...

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R&K is far from perfect. It's very prone to swingy results; while it is a good and fun engine, it has it's own share of problems. And well, any it involves math that scales from 15ties into 60ties, which often produces wacky results. 

I really think that L5R could use special dice in creative and fun ways. And while yes, extra dice might be hard on the wallet, I personally am willing to pay for them if they are pretty and feel good in use :P. For example, I'm really excited by thought of having special Raise dices - calling Raises is definitely iconic for L5R, and it definitely should be represented somehow in any L5R rpg. 

Personally, I find Raise dice more exciting than increasing TN by 5; using special dice for it just feels more involved. Ditto for Void Point; adding Void Dice to a roll just would feel more majestic than simply adding +1k1.

Then again, I'm sucker for tokens, special dice and other paraphernalia...

 

Are you suggesting that narrative die do not produce wacky results?

 

Everything else just seems like unnecessary complications. TN+5 works for raises because it's easy for everyone. And a void die would either be exactly the same as +1k1, or would make using a void point a risky business.

 

 

Then again, I hate wasting money on extra things I'm only going to use in one RPG system. So I guess we are simply never going to agree on this

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At first I was pretty defensive about thought of saying goodbye to Roll & Keep, but the more I think about it, more I'm curious about  how FFG would tackle their own system. I like what I saw in Star Wars (haven't looked at Warhammer) and I definitely like idea of custom dices keyed off particular Rings and eliminating Traits altogether, putting more emphasis on Rings and what they mean instead. 

It would be also a great occasion to slay some sacred cows, like Shugenja and Bushi design principles; making Shugenja more priestish and less wizardish would be welcome, and offering Bushi some ability to actually be more wuxiaish without relying on specific techniques. Getting rid of the spell slot concept also would be very helpful, because I feel that Spell Slots are legacy mechanic borrowed from DnD that does not make much sense, and is often used as really terrible balancing tool where "it's okay that spells are super powerful, you can cast them only X times a day!". Per Day resources in games that are not about managing resources have pretty much no real balancing factor. 

 

As long as FFG L5R RPG allows character of any clan to be good at most of the stuff and has good GAME mechanics, I'll be in. By "good at most of the stuff" I mean that you don't need to be Kitsuki in order to be a good detective, or Kakita to be a good duelist; they should help, but not make you invincible in your field. 

And yes, I consider RPGs games and I feel that they should be designed like them; one reason why I was really irritated with RPG Design Team was constant insisting that RPGs are not games, with subtext of judging people thinking so as inferior type of players. 

 

 

EDIT

And If we were going with Star Wars style "roles and archetypes" Rulebooks, I feel that Magistrates Of The Empire would be perfect starting point; Magistrate Campaigns are easiest ones to provide for mixed Clan parties, and have enough freedom of movement (and action) to explore Empire as a whole, from many different angles. It could be a sourcebook with both Bushi and Courtier archetypes.

Monks and Shugenjas could come in Prayers of the Empire or something else, later :P

 

 

Regarding the bolded part -- one of the things that makes me twitch about the game as presented in the 4th Ed books is that everything READS as if it is very pidgeonholey -- if you want this type of personality, plan this clan.  If you want to be really good at X, play school A, if you want to be really good at Y, play school B.  Etc.  Maybe that's not how it plays, but that's 100% how it reads. 

 

I absolutely support that idea a character shouldn't need to be of a certain clan, or family, or school, in order to be good at something.  The major clans in particular are all big enough that they need and can support all sorts of characters, all sorts of specialists.  Just because a clan is known for something, shouldn't always mean that they're the only ones who have it or that all others need not apply. 

 

There's also the schitzo understanding of scale involved.   There's a disconnect between how schools are presented as these exclusive, secretive things... and yet given the population numbers, if all the samurai-class persons in each clan are all members of one of these named schools, then some of the schools must be massive.  Instead of wonking the scale and saying that the 4th child of a poor ji-samurai is attending the same school as the heir of the Clan Champion... or somehow saying that there's only the listed schools or nothing... perhaps the school system needs a rework both for the sake of the setting, and for the sake of the mechanics. 

 

Someone suggested having a general "bushi school", with the specific, named schools being turned into sets of alternate paths. 

 

I'd suggest perhaps having the Techniques work more like Kata and Kiho, bought strictly with XP, with certain schools getting discounts on the sorts of Techniques they're most likely to teach. 

 

 

 

As for RPGs, they're a game in that they have a framework of rules, and that they're meant to be enjoyable, and and that they're usually played in a group.  They're not games in the sense that a game might need to have to have a winner, or be competetive. 

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There's also the schitzo understanding of scale involved.   There's a disconnect between how schools are presented as these exclusive, secretive things... and yet given the population numbers, if all the samurai-class persons in each clan are all members of one of these named schools, then some of the schools must be massive.  Instead of wonking the scale and saying that the 4th child of a poor ji-samurai is attending the same school as the heir of the Clan Champion... or somehow saying that there's only the listed schools or nothing... perhaps the school system needs a rework both for the sake of the setting, and for the sake of the mechanics.

 

 

A bit off topic, but I tried to resolve this problem in my campaign by saying that the ji-samurai who composed the bulk of the armies didn't get formal schools. That is, they probably had dojos and everything, but a clan's techniques were reserved for the upper crust.

 

Not coincidentally, this also made large battles a lot easier to run. :)

 

 

Someone suggested having a general "bushi school", with the specific, named schools being turned into sets of alternate paths. I'd suggest perhaps having the Techniques work more like Kata and Kiho, bought strictly with XP, with certain schools getting discounts on the sorts of Techniques they're most likely to teach.

 

 

I believe that was suggested by Yandia, just to give credit where it's due. And both of those changes seem like reasonable fixes to me.

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