Lightsaber stats in Edge vs. Force and destiny

[FuriousGuy 91]

I think if I was GMing I'd go with "you have 7 options but can only choose 5 (6 if you are a Master Artificer)."  That gives the Master Artificer something to do with his talent, makes the Krayt Dragon Pearl extra special, makes the Ilum crystal a good, flexible starter crystal, and it's still possible to get the EotE stats on an Ilum crystal with only 5 mods and an extended hilt (itself modded for Vicious +1).

[Jegergryte 1,978]

 

1) Because the mods all exist on one crystal, doesn't mean all the mods were intended to be accessed simultaneously.  For all we know, the devs could have intended this to force a choice.  It's not as if the mods need to be added in a certain order.

 

2) Additionally, there are explicit rules for expending despair on rolls for mods.  I fail to see how it's 'dickish' to try and use them.  BTW for the 7th mod on a Jedi's own crystal, 2 upgrades would have < 16% to get 1 or more despair.  Given the complexity of what they're doing, that's very low.

 

3) Frankly, the only thing that doesn't make sense is why I thought I could get a civil answer on these boards.  All I did was point out that the rules didn't say what someone claimed or I wish they had addressed this in RAW (seriously look at what I wrote above) and your response is to portray me as screaming:

 

4) So I think this is the time where you start tell I'm "small-minded" and "can't move beyond crunchy" and "Maybe I shouldn't be playing this game" and otherwise not allowed to play in the sand box again.  

 

5) So should we just get that over with?

1) I'm not talking about simultaneity, I'm talking eventually - the difficulty increase is still in effect. If you mean it may not be intended that all the mods will be accessed on all lightsabers, well of course, not everyone's going to succeed or want to, but some are. I won't speculate too much about intentions of the developers in this case.

 

2) Adding on automatic upgrades, when there's already a mechanic to supply that upgrade, I can see that as dickish, but you raise a fair point. I'm still not sure I'm convinced that upgrades (instead of or in addition to DP) is the best solution, although it is kinder - somewhat - than adding difficulty dice, barring the potential Despair - admittedly a small chance.

 

3) I'm sorry you see this as an attack on you, it wasn't.

 

4) ?

 

5) ?

[LethalDose 628]

2) Adding on automatic upgrades, when there's already a mechanic to supply that upgrade, I can see that as dickish, but you raise a fair point. I'm still not sure I'm convinced that upgrades (instead of or in addition to DP) is the best solution, although it is kinder - somewhat - than adding difficulty dice, barring the potential Despair - admittedly a small chance.

 

The "Mechanism in place" is the expenditure of destiny points.  It's the GM *actively* putting potholes in front of the player.  If you think that's less "dickish" then ruling difficulty >5 leads to difficulty upgrades, then I'm glad I'm not at your table.

 

3) I'm sorry you see this as an attack on you, it wasn't.

 

Your tone was clearly disrespectful (straw-manning my point of view, representing me a shouting, stating my position was "rigid' and "dickish"), but the mods have it clear what my reports are worth.

 

And I don't know how you can read these forums and not understand where I'm coming from.  I've routinely seen that slanderous crap aimed at me and others.

Edited September 14, 2015 by LethalDose

[Jegergryte 1,978]

As for the mechanism: strictly speaking I'm thinking it would be dickish to add auto-upgrades and then use destiny points to add another upgrade. Making >5 difficulties subject to that possibility makes me hesitate, I would feel dickish dishing that out on my players, at least on a modification roll.

 

 

I did neither quote you, mention you, think of you, direct it at you or try to (mis)represent you in any way when writing that. Nor did I say that your position was any of that, that's your interpretation of my statement. I've already apologised and told you it had nothing to do with you, what more do you want?

[Jegergryte 1,978]

I think if I was GMing I'd go with "you have 7 options but can only choose 5 (6 if you are a Master Artificer)."  That gives the Master Artificer something to do with his talent, makes the Krayt Dragon Pearl extra special, makes the Ilum crystal a good, flexible starter crystal, and it's still possible to get the EotE stats on an Ilum crystal with only 5 mods and an extended hilt (itself modded for Vicious +1).

I think that could feel limiting for some players, but at the same time I like it. If your players agree, I'd say go for it.

[LethalDose 628]

 

As for the mechanism: strictly speaking I'm thinking it would be dickish to add auto-upgrades and then use destiny points to add another upgrade. Making >5 difficulties subject to that possibility makes me hesitate, I would feel dickish dishing that out on my players, at least on a modification roll.

 

It's easy to claim that was the intent retroactively, but your text seems pretty clear that it's "dickish" to even allow for the possibility of two more despair on an upgrade roll.  Besides, this is something that, IMO, should take place out of a game session, and off-camera, which means I personally see little narrative value in throwing a DP at upgrade roll.

 

I did neither quote you, mention you, think of you, direct it at you or try to (mis)represent you in any way when writing that. Nor did I say that your position was any of that, that's your interpretation of my statement. I've already apologised and told you it had nothing to do with you, what more do you want?

 

 

I think it's reprehensibly disingenuous to try to claim that that you weren't addressing my points in that post, but if that's what you want.  Also not even sure why you'd bother, as I've pointed out the mods don't seem to mind as long as it's aimed at me.

 

What I'd really like is to be able to interact in the forums without feeling harassed by peers and mods, or at least have recourse for when it does, but that's apparently neither are gonna happen.

 

And for the record:

 

I'm sorry you see this as an attack on you.

 

is not an apology for *your* actions.  The difference between "I'm sorry I did [X]" and "I'm sorry you have a problem with it" should be evident.

 

As for doing something productive with this post.  This:

 

I think if I was GMing I'd go with "you have 7 options but can only choose 5 (6 if you are a Master Artificer)."  That gives the Master Artificer something to do with his talent, makes the Krayt Dragon Pearl extra special, makes the Ilum crystal a good, flexible starter crystal, and it's still possible to get the EotE stats on an Ilum crystal with only 5 mods and an extended hilt (itself modded for Vicious +1).

 

 

is an interesting viewpoint that I may take advantage of in the future.  However, the Tractor 6 and issues raised by Cybernetics still raise the question of what to do with Difficulty > 5.  I still think upgrading makes the most sense, but that's just my opinion.

Edited September 14, 2015 by LethalDose

[Jegergryte 1,978]

1) It's easy to claim that was the intent retroactively, but your text seems pretty clear that it's "dickish" to even allow for the possibility of two more despair on an upgrade roll.  Besides, this is something that, IMO, should take place out of a game session, and off-camera, which means I personally see little narrative value in throwing a DP at upgrade roll.

1) Well, here the premisses are different. Usually mods and attachment play a central role in the session for my players, at least the ones that are particularly interested in that part of the game (the others tend to ignore that part of the game, so far). So I agree if we adopt your perspective, then it would have no or little narrative value using a DP on such a check. I still think two potential Despairs is excessive and wouldn't want a GM throwing out auto-upgrades like that, at least not how we game, perhaps it would seem less excessive if it happened between sessions. I can't say for sure.

[LethalDose 628]

Apparently Sam has previously clarified that "reducing difficulty" isn't equivalent to "Removing purple dice" (source).  Based on that clarification, it would seem reasonable to me that "increasing difficulty" (the language used by the book re: installing mods) wouldn't be equivalent to adding purple dice.

 

I'm not saying you can't add more than 5 purple dice to a pool; If that's how your table games, that's your call.  I just noticed a semi-related clarification in the Dev-answered question section and thought I'd share it.  Obviously, anyone is free to draw their own conclusions from what Sam meant in that response and how it relates to the situation at hand.

 

Additionally, I feel pretty comfortable interpreting the "Impossible" difficulty rating to be one higher than "Formidable", since tasks of the latter category are described to "seem nigh impossible." 

 

Regardless, different tables will handle difficulty 6 and 7 differently (disallowing, ignoring, upgrading, etc), I'm just disappointed the devs haven't made this more clear in the core text.

[Jegergryte 1,978]

Hah! You're right! It's actually, possibly, only through upgrading that you add purple to the pool (page 21 EotE CRB), whereas increasing difficulty caps at Formidable, the sidebar/boxthingy on page 22 sort of says that, it also refers to the difficulty levels on page 17, by way of page 20.

 

This still doesn't make Tractor 6 or characteristics of 6 (and higher) consistent with the rest, but in these two cases it is stated that the value = difficulty dice. So these are exceptions.

 

Basically, there's been given no way to increase difficulty above Formidable...?

[LethalDose 628]

Basically, there's been given no way to increase difficulty above Formidable...?

 

Well, you still have the Impossible rating, and upgrades, but as far as I can tell Formidable is intended to be a bit of a "soft cap" for difficulty ratings.

 

This still doesn't make Tractor 6 or characteristics of 6 (and higher) consistent with the rest, but in these two cases it is stated that the value = difficulty dice. So these are exceptions.

 

For opposed checks, the text states:

 

"However, rather than assigning a general difficulty level to an opposed check, a quick comparison between the active and opposing characteristics and skill ratings determines the difficulty of an opposed check."

 

To me, this says that the general difficulty of opposed checks operates outside of the "difficulty level paradigm" (for lack of a better term), so 6 purples there doesn't seem to be inconsistent within RAW, at least to me.

 

Tractor 6.... Yeah... uh...

 

You're opposing the tractor beam, that has a relevant characteristic of 6 and no skills?

 

Actually that kind of makes of sense.

 

Anyway, if those are the two big ones, the opposed rolls doesn't bug me, the tractor 6 is a little weird, but I'm willing to lump it into an opposed roll. 

Edited September 16, 2015 by LethalDose

[Donovan Morningfire 10,200]

I could swear with Tractor 6 this got asked of the devs/designers, and the answer was you'd roll against 6 purple, but a Destiny Point wasn't required in spite of it being an "impossible" task.  In fact, want to even go so far as to say it was something HappyDaze had asked.

 

As for the difficulty of modifying an Ilum crystal, when I talked with Sam at GenCon 2014, he expressed that the intent was for the PC to eventually be able to modify the crystal so that it would have the same stats as the AoR/EotE Lightsabers.  He never said it'd be easy, or was even meant to be easy, but that it was meant to be possible.

 

Frankly, I think simply upgrading the dice once you go past five purple works just fine.  It's certainly not "dickish" since you're looking at the 6th and 7th modifications of what's already a very capable weapon.  And besides, if a PC really wants a weapon with the same stats as the AoR/EotE Lightsabers, the Krayt Dragon Pearl offers an easier route to get there, as you only need two modifications to get the Damage 10 and Vicious 2 traits added, and you've still got room for more ranks of Vicious.  Worse comes to it, the PC may simply have to be selective about what modifications they make; I'm playing a Shii-Cho Knight (FR 1, Intellect 2, no ranks in Mechanics) in an AoR game, and so far I've been very lucky with my Ilum crystal mods (+2 damage, -1 crit rating, +1 vicious, and Superior Hilt as an Contribution Rank reward).  I know that the odds of this PC getting the crystal fully modified are hovering between slim and none, so I'm going to have to either be very choosy or start working on boosting up my Force Rating or buying some ranks in Mechanics.

 

And for the chance of rolling Despair, even on two reds it's pretty slim, plus we're talking about the extreme end of modifications to the crystal.

[Richardbuxton 7,319]

If you succeed in modifying but roll a despair then it would be very mean to destroy the attachment, after all it was a success. It would only be with failure that that would be possible. And let's face it, if your willing to roll PPPRR then you're probably confident of actually succeeding.

[Donovan Morningfire 10,200]

If you succeed in modifying but roll a despair then it would be very mean to destroy the attachment, after all it was a success. It would only be with failure that that would be possible. And let's face it, if your willing to roll PPPRR then you're probably confident of actually succeeding.

Good point.

 

Not sure if it's been overlooked in the discussion, but the rules do say that the attachment is only ruined if the PC rolls a Despair and fails the check.  If a Despair is rolled by the Mechanics checks succeeds, then the attachment is fine.

[LethalDose 628]

 

I could swear with Tractor 6 this got asked of the devs/designers, and the answer was you'd roll against 6 purple, but a Destiny Point wasn't required in spite of it being an "impossible" task.  In fact, want to even go so far as to say it was something HappyDaze had asked.

 

I kinda feel like there's not a problem here, especially if you look at it like an opposed roll, which I think *does* operate outside the "base difficulty" scale (Simple -> Impossible).

 

It would be problematic if there were conflicting wording for something modifying a medium tractor beam (Tractor 4) like:

• Increase tractor rating by +2
• Increase difficulty to resist tractor beam twice(or "by 2")

In former case, no problem, roll 6 purple dice.  In the latter, it could be one of the following:

1. Impossible difficulty (PPPPP + Destiny)
2. Roll PPPPPP
3. Roll RPPPP

The two phrasings of the effect above would ideally be synonymous, but, alas, we're having this conversation because it appears they fundamentally aren't synonymous.  The issue is that the first description above directly addresses the "characteristic" that applies purple dice, while the second addresses the *difficulty*.   But, again, If you look at the Tractor example in the context of "Its an opposed roll and opposed rolls don't use the typical difficulty scale" then it's also not an issue.

 

Again, for the record, I think I would prefer option #3, but I think all of those options, and others not listed, would be acceptable.

 

As for the difficulty of modifying an Ilum crystal, when I talked with Sam at GenCon 2014, he expressed that the intent was for the PC to eventually be able to modify the crystal so that it would have the same stats as the AoR/EotE Lightsabers.  He never said it'd be easy, or was even meant to be easy, but that it was meant to be possible.

 

Frankly, I think simply upgrading the dice once you go past five purple works just fine.  [More words]

 

I agree.

[Jegergryte 1,978]

The Tractor 6 thing is of course obviously not the same as an impossible check (the impossible task sidebar gives the players an option to do something otherwise not possible, for a DP and then a formidable check, at least that's my understanding of it). That much is apparent, as it is stated that the Pilot difficulty = Tractor rating. So like with opposed checks, it is as Lethal stated, outside the 0-5 difficulty die framework. To me this sounds like, again, the guideliney thing with these games. I don't personally mind it, but it does mean that to strictly adhere to some sort of notion of absolute RAW is problematic, as a lot of these issues are open-ended and therefore up to the various GMs plus group to decide for themselves. Again, I don't mind this, but it is what it is - we have to decide for ourselves.

 

I'm still of the opinion that slapping on auto-upgrades on a mod roll is unreasonable, to choose a different word than "dickish" (specifically with the opening of another upgrade due to DP expenditure), I find the argument "it's the 6th or 7th mod and therefore ok" to be lacking, how come that justifies auto-upgrades? The fact that's it's a number of mods doesn't in itself justify it to me.

 

Richardbuxton's point does change this somewhat (the low probability of Despair has also been used and these two reinforce each other I think), but I'm still not convinced that number of mods justifies upgrades. The number of mods = upgrades argument seems to follow a philosophy of gaming I don't completely agree with, and seems odd with this game. But I'm willing to give it a go, if it comes up and my players don't protest and start throwing dice at me. FR counting into this sort of helps, with the added reduction in difficulty, but these all seem like poor patches on a system not made for attachment with that many mod options as the Ilum crystal has... (but that's another discussion).

 

At the moment we may not have many other attachments with a similar amount of modification options, but I wouldn't find it ok for blaster or melee weapon either - or a starship attachment. Not the way attachments and modifications of these are designed in this game at least. The thing is that most attachments don't have that many mods, and the difficulty increase seems to be tied to the attachment, not the item (if I understand the text on page 187 correctly).

 

But regardless of what I think, in this case we come back to open-endedness of this game: you could do the upgrades (which some/many are completely ok with - and I'm maybe changing my mind), you could demand DP as it is now an impossible check... but is it? Not really, but that option is at least listed in the CRB, even if it may not be strictly applicable in this case... the third option would be to continue to increase the difficulty (in this case interpreted as adding more purple dice, strictly not RAW, but one solution), or you could just let it stay at 5 purple dice for all future upgrades, which could also make sense as this is the difficulty cap (soft cap perhaps, but still a cap). Since the CRB only states that the difficulty is increase by one, and that formidable is the cap, one could argue that the difficulty cannot be increased above this - per RAW... but of course that seems a bit ... meh... doesn't it... it means you can get a lot for less, or less than expected or desired when the idea is a rising stake for increased pay-off. Is this pay-off-reward notion contributing to a good or better game? Why? How?

 

Would it strictly speaking be game breaking or unbalancing to leave the difficulty at 5 purple?

[Donovan Morningfire 10,200]

Jegergryte,

Potentially, yes it would be a bit of a game-breaker, as it's really only the lightsaber crystals that go beyond a 5 purple in difficulty when modifying, since FaD characters get to add their Force dice to the check; a PC with Force Rating 3 and Intellect 3 probably won't have much trouble with rolling against 5 purple, making even those last few modifications trivial.  And as was noted before the FaD Beta came out, the lightsaber stats in AoR and EotE were monstrous, so a fully modded Ilum Crystal now allows a PC to have that same monster of a weapon, and likely at a much cheaper cost since trend with the published adventures is that 'saber crystals are found rather than purchased.

 

But going through the posts here, you seem pretty set in the frame of mind that adding challenge dice to a modification roll is a "dickish thing to do," and there's been pretty good evidence that adding challenge dice to modification checks is something that was intended by the designers from the get-go (otherwise, why include a rule about what happens when a Despair comes up on a failed Mechanics check?), so I frankly doubt anything that myself or LethalDose has to say on the matter will change that viewpoint.

[LethalDose 628]

Okay, first let's not get hostile with each other, everyone knows that doesn't go anywhere productive.

 

Second, lets acknowledge that there's basically two separate, but closely related, conversations going here:

• The specific case of how to handle increasing the difficulty of the Mechanics check 
• The general case of how to handle increasing the difficulty of any check past Formidable.

My opinion, in the general case:

 

Personally, I like despairs, and I don't think there are enough passive mechanisms in the game to upgrade Difficulty dice to Challenge dice.  I think I'll be using upgrades to increase the difficulty past Formidable when I think the task is still reasonably possible, and applying the "Impossible" side bar otherwise.

 

Everyone else... do whatever makes you happy.  Just... the end.

 

The dev's have left this wide open, and that means we can decide how to handle this for ourselves, individually, however we want, for better or for worse.  I personally feel like this is leaving us to clean up the mess, but whatever.  I've expressed this opinion before, it's not popular, but I'll not be harassed, insulted, or shamed out of it.

 

My opinion, in the specific case:

 

I'll address Jeg's question at the end of his most recent post:

 

Would it strictly speaking be game breaking or unbalancing to leave the difficulty at 5 purple?

 

This question is loaded, and is neither fair or useful.  I think we can agree "strictly speaking" balance is a myth, since most rules (probably any rule) can be twisted and/or abused to be unbalanced.  Further, it's obvious that the difficulty of the 6th and 7th mods on the Ilum crystal isn't game-breaking, no matter what they are.  So seriously, who gives two $#!ts what anyone's answer to this question is, it's not really informative, and any answer would be hyperbolic.  In fact, let's try to discuss it without using absolute terms like "game-breaking" or loaded terms like "un-balanced".  

 

A better question (or set of questions) would be: Have you seen leaving the difficulty at 5 purple be abused? Or are you reasonably concerned that it would be abused?

 

Based on your posts above, I'm guessing the answer is "no", but you're free to respond.  I don't want to put words in your mouth.  If you're not worried and haven't seen worrying use, then leave it.  It's not screwing your game.  

 

Hey Donovan, same question.  Let's say, for argument sake, you say "yes".  (You are, similarly, welcome to respond in your own words).  Don't cap it at Formidable.  Instead, use upgrades, or "impossible" or whatever else.

 

Personally, I'd apply my "general" opinion to this specific case.

 

So I agree when DM says:

 

 I frankly doubt anything that myself or LethalDose has to say on the matter will change that viewpoint.

 

I agree, but I really don't think it matters if we change his opinion.  It's his table, he can roll it however he wants.  Also, Jeg seems to be willing to use DP to upgrade mechanics checks, so he at least seems willing to do it.  I don't understand how that's less 'dickish' than automatically upgrading, but it's his opinion, so it's valid.

 

Again, would have been nice to codified how to handle this situation in the rules, but... oh well.

 

Clarification: This post isn't an attempt to *end* the conversation here, nor am I trying to play a "mod".  What I am trying to do is:

• Point out this is an immense grey area
• Different tables should be comfortable coming to their own conclusions
• Give Jeg the benefit of the doubt that he's not calling Donovan, Me, or anyone else a ****

Edited September 17, 2015 by LethalDose

[Jegergryte 1,978]

Jegergryte,

Potentially, yes it would be a bit of a game-breaker, as it's really only the lightsaber crystals that go beyond a 5 purple in difficulty when modifying, since FaD characters get to add their Force dice to the check; a PC with Force Rating 3 and Intellect 3 probably won't have much trouble with rolling against 5 purple, making even those last few modifications trivial.  And as was noted before the FaD Beta came out, the lightsaber stats in AoR and EotE were monstrous, so a fully modded Ilum Crystal now allows a PC to have that same monster of a weapon, and likely at a much cheaper cost since trend with the published adventures is that 'saber crystals are found rather than purchased.

 

But going through the posts here, you seem pretty set in the frame of mind that adding challenge dice to a modification roll is a "dickish thing to do," and there's been pretty good evidence that adding challenge dice to modification checks is something that was intended by the designers from the get-go (otherwise, why include a rule about what happens when a Despair comes up on a failed Mechanics check?), so I frankly doubt anything that myself or LethalDose has to say on the matter will change that viewpoint.

You make a fair point on the FR addition - although this would/could also involve conflict, strain and DP flippage, as the probability is in favour of dsp results, but still, the finer points of probability doesn't necessarily matter. You're basically saying it becomes too easy if it stays at 5 purple (potentially 4 purple and 1 red with DP flippage). Then my counter is to add purple, instead of upgrades, to keep the difficulty in line with earlier increases (of course there may be some maths involved I don't know). Of course this could result in a rather bloated dice pool, so I guess upgrades is a practical compromise.

 

I'm well aware that adding challenge dice to modification checks is part of the game design. I envision a GM flipping a DP just to make a PC roll against three challenge dice on his last modification option. Perhaps not likely, but hey, doing that wouldn't be nice in my book.

 

 

Okay, first let's not get hostile with each other, everyone knows that doesn't go anywhere productive.

 

Second, lets acknowledge that there's basically two separate, but closely related, conversations going here:

• The specific case of how to handle increasing the difficulty of the Mechanics check 
• The general case of how to handle increasing the difficulty of any check past Formidable.

My opinion, in the general case:

 

Personally, I like despairs, and I don't think there are enough passive mechanisms in the game to upgrade Difficulty dice to Challenge dice.  I think I'll be using upgrades to increase the difficulty past Formidable when I think the task is still reasonably possible, and applying the "Impossible" side bar otherwise.

 

Everyone else... do whatever makes you happy.  Just... the end.

 

The dev's have left this wide open, and that means we can decide how to handle this for ourselves, individually, however we want, for better or for worse.  I personally feel like this is leaving us to clean up the mess, but whatever.  I've expressed this opinion before, it's not popular, but I'll not be harassed, insulted, or shamed out of it.

 

My opinion, in the specific case:

 

I'll address Jeg's question at the end of his most recent post:

 

Would it strictly speaking be game breaking or unbalancing to leave the difficulty at 5 purple?

 

This question is loaded, and is neither fair or useful.  I think we can agree "strictly speaking" balance is a myth, since most rules (probably any rule) can be twisted and/or abused to be unbalanced.  Further, it's obvious that the difficulty of the 6th and 7th mods on the Ilum crystal isn't game-breaking, no matter what they are.  So seriously, who gives two $#!ts what anyone's answer to this question is, it's not really informative, and any answer would be hyperbolic.  In fact, let's try to discuss it without using absolute terms like "game-breaking" or loaded terms like "un-balanced".  

 

A better question (or set of questions) would be: Have you seen leaving the difficulty at 5 purple be abused? Or are you reasonably concerned that it would be abused?

 

Based on your posts above, I'm guessing the answer is "no", but you're free to respond.  I don't want to put words in your mouth.  If you're not worried and haven't seen worrying use, then leave it.  It's not screwing your game.  

 

Hey Donovan, same question.  Let's say, for argument sake, you say "yes".  (You are, similarly, welcome to respond in your own words).  Don't cap it at Formidable.  Instead, use upgrades, or "impossible" or whatever else.

 

Personally, I'd apply my "general" opinion to this specific case.

 

So I agree when DM says:

 

 I frankly doubt anything that myself or LethalDose has to say on the matter will change that viewpoint.

 

I agree, but I really don't think it matters if we change his opinion.  It's his table, he can roll it however he wants.  Also, Jeg seems to be willing to use DP to upgrade mechanics checks, so he at least seems willing to do it.  I don't understand how that's less 'dickish' than automatically upgrading, but it's his opinion, so it's valid.

 

Again, would have been nice to codified how to handle this situation in the rules, but... oh well.

 

Clarification: This post isn't an attempt to *end* the conversation here, nor am I trying to play a "mod".  What I am trying to do is:

• Point out this is an immense grey area
• Different tables should be comfortable coming to their own conclusions
• Give Jeg the benefit of the doubt that he's not calling Donovan, Me, or anyone else a ****

 

As for the general increase beyond formidable, I'd consider it depending on context, whether it warrants an extra purple, an auto-upgrade or just requiring a DP flip (and potentially me flipping a DP.) Also, I'm more in favour of adding purple than automatically add upgrades.

 

As for my question about capping it at 5 or not. It wasn't intended as a loaded question, I was just honestly wondering, but you make a fair point, so: I haven't tested this and I don't know whether hard capping it at 5 is good or not, whether it'll be abused or not, it was a thought that struck me. I don't know if it would be abused, but I think maybe I'd try it before sticking to one or the other way - and again, context is decisive.

 

Also, as for using DP to upgrade, that's a narrative thing to me, which is less unreasonable in my opinion than just automatically add upgrades. Then again, your point about lacking mechanics for upgrades is also fair, and I agree - I'm a fan of opposed checks, as these often have an upgrade or two.

 

So I guess my stance is summed up like this: context. When one reaches this level of challenges, what is reasonable - whether just leaving it at 5 purple, automatically upgrade, add more purple or require DP flippage from the PCs - will vary depending on numerous factors. Generally I'm not against auto-upgrades, when making a modification check I'm sceptical about auto-upgrades, when performing other checks, like slicing into a heavily defended network, not necessarily as sceptical (of course slicing can be seen as an opposed checks in many circumstances, so ... yeah.) Performing incredible athletic feats, perhaps require DP to even try it (the "impossible" task,) but hard cap it at 5 (maybe upgrade by doing a GM DP flip if the narrative suggests it.)

 

As for you bullet points:

• Yup.
• Aye.
• Yes please, why would I? First of all it wouldn't be particularly nice, nor would there be anything of value gained from that.

Edited September 17, 2015 by Jegergryte