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tsondaboy

Loosing an icon from your upgrade bar.

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Actualy, like I mentioned a few posts above, this situation happened to me during an epic game because I pulled the Deck Breach crit a few weeks ago. And I did discard my weapons engineer (after I placed Tantive IV under deck breach) to save some time from arguing since it was a store event.

Edited by tsondaboy

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Because nothing is written doesnt automaticaly means you ignore it and do nothing.

 The rules do not give you permission to later remove purchased upgrades due to the loss of an upgrade slot. It is really that simple.

 

Really? Could you please quote the page and line in the rule book where this is clearly stated?

Because you mention the rules awfully lot but fail to present any quote to them.

See page 20 of the new rules reference document. The paragraph at the top left corner of the pages give the rules for assigning upgrade cards to ships. They are assigned in the list building phase and that is it.

Now, it is your turn. What rule makes it reasonable to suggest that upgrade cards are removed during the game if their icon is lost?

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Because nothing is written doesnt automaticaly means you ignore it and do nothing.

 The rules do not give you permission to later remove purchased upgrades due to the loss of an upgrade slot. It is really that simple.

 

Really? Could you please quote the page and line in the rule book where this is clearly stated?

Because you mention the rules awfully lot but fail to present any quote to them.

See page 20 of the new rules reference document. The paragraph at the top left corner of the pages give the rules for assigning upgrade cards to ships. They are assigned in the list building phase and that is it.

Now, it is your turn. What rule makes it reasonable to suggest that upgrade cards are removed during the game if their icon is lost?

 

 

You did not answer my question, so its not my turn yet.

You used the word "permission" in you previous post that you now changed to "suggestion".

Permission to do or not do something is covered by a rule.

So I am asking you again, which rule gives permission to remove a card or forbids you to remove a card when you lose the upgrade icon from your upgrade bar?

 

If there is no rule that covers permission and we are talking about suggestions, we are talking on a different level.

Edited by tsondaboy

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See page 20 of the new rules reference document. The paragraph at the top left corner of the pages give the rules for assigning upgrade cards to ships. They are assigned in the list building phase and that is it.

Now, it is your turn. What rule makes it reasonable to suggest that upgrade cards are removed during the game if their icon is lost?

 

You did not answer my question, so its not my turn yet.

You used the word "permission" in you previous post that you now changed to "suggestion".

Permission to do or not do something is covered by a rule.

So I am asking you again, which rule gives permission to remove a card or forbids you to remove a card when you lose the upgrade icon from your upgrade bar?

As I said before, page 20 gives the rules for adding upgrades. Those are the only rules that I am aware of that are relevant to this issue. As you haven't referenced any rules, I assume that you are also unaware of other relevant rules.

It is not my job in this conversation to refute your claim when you haven't presented any rule. The rules are permissive. They don't have to forbid something for you to not be able to do it. Quote the rule that prevents a player from putting down 10 debris tokens instead of 3. See? That isn't how games work. There has to be a general permission that you identify before you can try to call on someone to present a specific rule that forbids something. There is no rule in X-Wing that allows upgrades to be removed when their corresponding icon is somehow removed.

If there is no rule that covers permission and we are talking about suggestions, we are talking on a different level.

You are just getting confused because there is no basis for the argument that cards should be removed from anything other than a huge ship if an icon is lost once the game starts. I cited the rule that gives you PERMISSION to add upgrades. This shows how icons allow for updrades to be added and doe not mention removing them. People who are claiming that this interaction requires a FAQ have not only failed to cite the rules that arguably grant PERMISSION to remove an upgrade based on the loss of an icon, but have failed to present anything that even SUGGESTS that such a removal would be appropriate.

So, i have given you the rules for adding upgrade cards to ships and you, apparently, still think that a FAQ is warranted. So, other than a 'because,' why do you think that a FAQ response is justified?

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You have everything right except one thing. The rule you quote permits equipping an upgrade if your upgrade bar has the corresponding icon.

But that also means that if you do not have an icon you can not have a correaponding upgrade equipped. And if this happens mid game you have to discard the illegal card.

This is further corroporated by the huge ship rules that arresteret the first rules from FFG that had to adresse how to handle loss of upgrade icons.

So the tilegne you quote is the proof that you must have an upgrade icon in your upgrade bar to legally have an upgrade of that type equipped.

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The only one that's getting confused here is you.

You are quoting a part of the rules that has nothing do to with the problem. This doesn't mean you have quoted something usefull or constructive that backs up your argument. There is no rule that covers either permission or no permission to remove a card at a later stage in the game.

You just made up a rule that does not grant permision that does not exist, in order to explain a situation that occurred by a new game mechanic added at a later stage that is not currently covered by the rules.

In reality though, the rules suggest two things.

a) That since beyond the building phase of the games explained in the main rule book there is no reference to upgrade icons, one MAY, not MUST, assume that you don't have to worry about losing an upgrade icon any more.

b) The only other reference to what might happen comes from the CR-90 rule book in the part that covers the situation that the ship is crippled and loses part of its upgrade icons. And to quote the rule: "A ships card crippled side has fewer upgrade icons than its normal side. When a Ship card's crippled side is revealed, the controlling player must choose and discard any upgrade cards in excess of the upgrade icons depicted" huge ship rule page 3. This disputes the legality of an upgrade card if you lose the icon you equiped it with and suggest that the card should be removed. This is a clear intent to me how FFG wants to deal with this matter.

You are welcome to use any of this two SUGGESTIONS in your play group, but until an FAQ that explains which one is valid comes out I am using b).

Edited by tsondaboy

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You have everything right except one thing. The rule you quote permits equipping an upgrade if your upgrade bar has the corresponding icon.
But that also means that if you do not have an icon you can not have a correaponding upgrade equipped. And if this happens mid game you have to discard the illegal card.
This is further corroporated by the huge ship rules that arresteret the first rules from FFG that had to adresse how to handle loss of upgrade icons.

So the tilegne you quote is the proof that you must have an upgrade icon in your upgrade bar to legally have an upgrade of that type equipped.

No. You do not get to operate outside of the rules. The rules that say when you equip an upgrade to fill an available upgrade icon slot are relevant because they are the only time that the general rules say when an upgrade card is equipped. And, the only time that rule is referenced is in the list building phase - not after the game has started. That paragraph starts with, "When building a squad."

 

In order to add an upgrade card that fills an icon to a ship, that ship must have an available icon to fill when the list is prepared. After is irrelevant unless the rules say otherwise (i.e. the crippled rules). Feel free to provide rules (so not a FAQ that applies exclusively to Huge ships) that establish otherwise. I will be happy to agree with you and, at a minimum, say that a FAQ is required if you can do that.

 

I don't reference the rules that say when an upgrade card is removed based on the loss of an icon because no such rule exists. If you want to do something in this game, including removing an upgrade card, then you have to provide rules that allow you to do so. So, what do you have?

 

There is no rule that covers either permission or no permission to remove a card at a later stage in the game.

 

Exactly. It is about time. So, the rules do you that you can do it, but you think that you should be allowed to do it. That justifies a FAQ? I think that I should be allowed to look at my opponent's dials. The rules don't say whether I can or can't do that. Should FFG publish a FAQ to clarify that for me?

 

In reality though, the rules suggest two things.
a) That since beyond the building phase of the games explained in the main rule book there is no reference to upgrade icons, one MAY, not MUST, assume that you don't have to worry about losing an upgrade icon any more.
b) The only other reference to what might happen comes from the CR-90 rule book in the part that covers the situation that the ship is crippled and loses part of its upgrade icons. And to quote the rule: "A ships card crippled side has fewer upgrade icons than its normal side. When a Ship card's crippled side is revealed, the controlling player must choose and discard any upgrade cards in excess of the upgrade icons depicted" huge ship rule page 3. This disputes the legality of an upgrade card if you lose the icon you equiped it with and suggest that the card should be removed. This is a clear intent to me how FFG wants to deal with this matter.

You are welcome to use any of this two SUGGESTIONS in your play group, but until an FAQ that explains which one is valid comes out I am using b).

 

My group only plays according to the rules. So  we know exactly what to do - follow them.

 

One must follow the rules at all times. One may not read things into the rules in order to make them work how one thinks that they should. Players are expected to do what the rules allow you to assume that you can do something unless the rules say otherwise. The only rules dealing with upgrade icons are invoked before the game begins (still waiting on anything from you suggesting otherwise).

 

For option B, are you suggesting the the rules for when a Huge ship is crippled should be applied whenever a ship loses an upgrade icon? Come on. Rules relating to being crippled apply exclusively to Huge ships that are capable of being crippled. If you want to use the crippled rules here, you can use them to suggest that FFG will change the rules for ships losing upgrade icons. As of right now, the rules only care about the availability of icon during list building.

 

Use option b if you want. You can also have ships turn into debris fields when they are destroyed, have Veteran Instincts increase a ships pilot skill by 1, and play 3 player free-for-alls.

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Interesting cherry picking of the rules from you. The huge ship rules augment the base rules and you can exclude them when they don't back up your argument.

The reference to the huge ship rules explains the legality of an upgrade card later in the game if the icons that supports it is lost. It's not just about the ship being crippled but a direct evidence that UPGRADE ICONS HAVE TO BE CHECKED EVEN AT LATER STAGES OF THE GAME BEYOND THE BUILDING PHASE.

It's beyond me how you cherry pick the rules to your liking and can't see the legality issue.

It's this exact legality issue why an FAQ is needed. Because in the absence of a direct rule, it's up to ones discretion if he will apply case a) or case b).

Edited by tsondaboy

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Interesting cherry picking of the rules from you. The huge ship rules augment the base rules and you can exclude them when they don't back up your argument.

The reference to the huge ship rules explains the legality of an upgrade card later in the game if the icons that supports it is lost. It's not just about the ship being crippled but a direct evidence that UPGRADE ICONS HAVE TO BE CHECKED EVEN AT LATER STAGES OF THE GAME BEYOND THE BUILDING PHASE.

It's beyond me how you cherry pick the rules to your liking and can't see the legality issue.

It's this exact legality issue why an FAQ is needed. Because in the absence of a direct rule, it's up to ones discretion if he will apply case a) or case b).

They aren't huge ship rules, they are epic play rules, separate from standard play. To use warhammer 40k as a point of reference - Apocalypse is a separate game line that adds extra rules into the game allowing the use of massive tanks, aircraft, formations etc, but you can't use Apocalypse rules in standard games.

So the crippled huge ship rule is not a precedent and until ffg release FAQ/errata there is nothing to suggest you lose cards mid-game in the scenario of losing an icon slot.

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The reference to the huge ship rules explains the legality of an upgrade card later in the game if the icons that supports it is lost. It's not just about the ship being crippled but a direct evidence that UPGRADE ICONS HAVE TO BE CHECKED EVEN AT LATER STAGES OF THE GAME BEYOND THE BUILDING PHASE.

 

Upgrade icons have to be checked whenever the rules tell you they should be checked. As of this moment, the only times the rules are concerned with upgrade icons are "When building a squad," and "When a Ship card's crippled side is revealed". There is currently no rule that supports an all-encompassing check for "illegally equipped" cards.

 

The Royal Guard TIE title says, "You cannot equip this card if your pilot skill value is "4" or lower." If an Interceptor equipped with the title gets dropped to PS 0 by a Damaged Cockpit crit, is the title discarded? How is a Royal Guard title equipped to a PS 0 Interceptor any different in terms of legality from an Elite upgrade equipped to a ship that lost its Elite slot? The phrase "can/cannot equip" ought to be interpreted the same in all cases.

 

So, either "can/cannot equip" is a standard that only applies during squad building, or it's checked throughout the match, and upgrades are discarded anytime their restrictions are not met. In the first case, the crippled section rule is an explicit special case for Epic format; in the second case, it's a bit redundant.

Edited by Pandademic

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The reference to the huge ship rules explains the legality of an upgrade card later in the game if the icons that supports it is lost. It's not just about the ship being crippled but a direct evidence that UPGRADE ICONS HAVE TO BE CHECKED EVEN AT LATER STAGES OF THE GAME BEYOND THE BUILDING PHASE.

The Royal Guard TIE title says, "You cannot equip this card if your pilot skill value is "4" or lower." If an Interceptor equipped with the title gets dropped to PS 0 by a Damaged Cockpit crit, is the title discarded? How is a Royal Guard title equipped to a PS 0 Interceptor any different in terms of legality from an Elite upgrade equipped to a ship that lost its Elite slot? The phrase "can/cannot equip" ought to be interpreted the same in all cases.

 

Good point thanks!

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While the ps 0 royal tie guard may be a good example, titles imo are not normal upgrades. All I can think about over losing your astromech and its ept is the situation of losing your engine upgrade. Would u still have a boost on your action bar if you no longer had the card that allowed you it? Common sense says no. So why would you keep a bonus if u lost the card that gave you the bonus? Sometimes I think people so badly want to prove others wrong that common sense and game play mechanics gets thrown out the window. Discarding your astromech to keep you alive should probably result in a penalty. Even if you think you've found a way around that penalty, wouldn't it still make more sense that it would?

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While the ps 0 royal tie guard may be a good example, titles imo are not normal upgrades.

 

Whatever your opinion, titles interact with the rules the same as any other upgrade card. Besides, it's not only titles that would risk getting discarded by PS-lowering tricks. Our friend R2-D6 can't be equipped to pilots with PS 2 or lower, so the same rules ought to apply.

 

All I can think about over losing your astromech and its ept is the situation of losing your engine upgrade. Would u still have a boost on your action bar if you no longer had the card that allowed you it? Common sense says no. So why would you keep a bonus if u lost the card that gave you the bonus?

 

If you lost your Engine Upgrade, it would no longer have an effect on your ship, and you would lose the boost action from your bar, yes. But you don't have to appeal to common sense: I can point to the rules that apply to this situation. Similarly, if you discard R2-D6, it no longer affects your ship, and you lose the Elite icon from your upgrade bar. I'm not disputing that. The issue here is whether or not losing an icon from your bar actually makes you discard the upgrade that fills that slot. I'm saying that currently, there is no rule that suggests that the presence or absence of upgrade icons is relevant during a match (other than flipping a Huge ship card).

 

Sometimes I think people so badly want to prove others wrong that common sense and game play mechanics gets thrown out the window.

 

Possibly. But if I'm reading you right, common sense says that a Royal Guard TIE doesn't stop being a Royal Guard TIE just because it wandered too close to Torkil Mux. Common sense also says that losing an astromech should have an effect on the ship, so the Expert Handling it gave you the slot for should be lost as well. But now common sense is telling us to "update" a ship to resolve an equipment restriction in one case, and to ignore it in another case.

 

That's why I'm throwing common sense out the window. Imagine both of those scenarios came up in the same game. Your opponent's Hobbie is forced to discard R2-D6, and you inform them that they need to discard Opportunist as well. The next turn, your Carnor Jax takes a Damaged Cockpit, and your opponent asks you why you aren't discarding Royal Guard TIE (and then either Autothrusters or Targeting Computer). How do you respond? They aren't likely to accept, "It's just common sense."

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Pilot skill changes all the time once combat starts. Damaged cockpit is no different than torkil or decoy, doesn't effect the ship you brought. When you choose to sacrifice an upgrade to prevent damage you should take a penalty and lose any bonuses provided.

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No comparable situation to Integrated Astromech with a non-huge ship exists in the game.

  • Deck Breach instructs you to place the title under the damage card, not to discard it. It's still there, it just can't be used.
  • Royal Guard TIE has PS4+ as an equip condition, but even a PS0 has a title slot. The slot has not been lost.
  • Bomb Loadout being discarded cannot arise because Bomb Loadout isn't a secondary weapon and therefore is not vunerable to Munitions Failure. (The same is true of Extra Munitions.)

Then we have two conflicting precedents.

Huge ship crippling suggests loss of slot causes loss of card. However, the rules do only say to do this on huge ship crippling. While RAW arguments have a tendency to descend into the nonsensical (before the TFA core set you couldn't ever fire outside your arc RAW), there's another tidbit to support this view: Mist Hunter.

  • Mist Hunter makes you equip a Tractor Beam, but doesn't give you a Tractor Beam slot. If you need the slot to have the card, surely that'd instantly discard?

FFG'll likely clear this up before Wave 8 comes out or soon after, they might even make a special ruling just for it. As it stands though, there is no legal situation in which this case can come up. Hence no rule exists.

 

Neither Mist Hunter nor Integrated Astromech are released and unreleased cards aren't legal for use anyway. Therefore, anyone proxying them in is technically house ruling.

 

And if you've made one house rule, it's not much of a stretch to make another and decide with your opponent how this ruling works until Wave 8 comes out and FFG clarifies this.

Edited by Blue Five

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Because nothing is written doesnt automaticaly means you ignore it and do nothing.

 The rules do not give you permission to later remove purchased upgrades due to the loss of an upgrade slot. It is really that simple.

 

Really? Could you please quote the page and line in the rule book where this is clearly stated?

Because you mention the rules awfully lot but fail to present any quote to them.

See page 20 of the new rules reference document. The paragraph at the top left corner of the pages give the rules for assigning upgrade cards to ships. They are assigned in the list building phase and that is it.

Now, it is your turn. What rule makes it reasonable to suggest that upgrade cards are removed during the game if their icon is lost?

 

 

Let's take the example of R2-D6 droid + integrated astromech "issue"

 

 

Rules reference (page 20):

 

When an Upgrade card is discarded, it is flipped

facedown. The card is out of play for all purposes

except when determining the total squad point

cost of the ship to which it was equipped. If an

Upgrade card is flipped faceup by a game effect,

it returns to play equipped to the same ship.

 

 

So your ship does not longer have EPT upgrade slot on your bar if you used Integrated Droid to flip down R2-D6 droid from Integrated Astromech ability --> R2-D6 card is out of play along with "Your upgrade bar gains the (EPT!) upgrade icon".

 

 

And now, from Learn to Play rules (Page 14):

 

Upgrade cards may be used by ships of any faction, as

long as the icon appears in the ship’s upgrade bar

 

 

 

EPT is an upgrade card, you can't use it as your EPT slot is lost due to flipping down R2-D6 card.

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For another example, if you lost your Engine Upgrade card, would your ship still have the boost icon in it's bar and be able to use the boost action?

 

I would say no, and so I would say the same for R2-D6.

 

 

The Pilot Skill reduction/cards that need a certain pilot skill argument I don't think is valid for this, as everything in the game (even the damaged cockpit crit) says "TREAT your ship's/that ship's pilot skill as lower/zero"

 

Nothing ever permanently removed or reduces your actual pilot skill. You just TREAT the PS as lower/higher. And they either last a round/small amount of time or are on a crit that with the right cards can be flipped down or removed. Your skill is always what your card says, it's just treated as a different number in certain situations.

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