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Evenflow30

Debating the new x-wing "fix"

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I'm really hoping this isn't the only thing in the works to address the T-65 and this just happens to be the one that is included with the T-70 that can cross over and more subtle things like this are going to filter into the game over the next few releases. 

 

My biggest issue with this is that in order to see any benefit, you're required to spend even more points on a ship that's already questionably costed.  If it applied the same identical effect with even a 1 point discount on the cost towards the astromech to make it useful, I'd be more excited.  It also takes up your mod slot.  So, now you can't even take this, with a R2, EU, and PTL on someone like Wedge if you wanted to.  Same thing with Poe and R5-P9 as it takes up the mod slot that's needed for Autothrusters.  Definitely an interesting idea, but this seems extremely situationally effective when it comes to build synergy.  Here's hoping this is just the tip of several small things to really allow T-65s to be utilized in many versatile ways.

 

Now, if this opens up the design space for a lot of different and useful astromechs designed around various tweaks to how x-wings can be used, then this could be all sorts of awesome.  I'm really hoping that's the direction they're headed here.  For example, the R2 and R5 astromechs are obviously decent for this role because of their cost and provide different things.  If we've got some new 0 cost astromechs that provide some very subtle tweaks, that'd be perfect.  I know a 0-cost droid that allows the Xwing to barrell roll would be too much ask for.  At a 1 or 2 point cost though?  That's probably doable.  What about a astromech that provides some type of synergy with target locking in a similar vein but not identical to FCS? (maybe that's what's coming with that new droid)  What about a droid that gives you access to the evade action (obviously at a cost)?  All of these can greatly differentiate how Xwings can be utilized in a list and I think would be very thematic and pair with this upgrade.  Even if some/most of these astromechs would have to have 'Xwing only' as limiters, I think this would be a cool space to explore that simultaneously differentiates the Xwings from the other ships, but also keeps things very thematic and inline with how the ship should perform in the universe. 

 

 

Edited by barn34

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Looks like it brings it very close to a Blue B-Wings jousting value, so I would call this mission accomplished.

If that's true, and it's not that I don't believe you I just like to see another take on the numbers... It may be better then I think. But I just don't believe that a single extra HP is going to bring it on par with the B-wing that can barrel roll.

 

Depends on what you want to fly and what you're flying against.  B's have barrel roll but are slow as can be and have a hard time chasing down a wounded fattie as tourney rounds expire.  I know this from experience and will switch to BBXXZ when this card is out.

 

The extra green dice of an X-wing will help a lot more on swarm control but may not be as useful against HLC.  What I am really curious about is TLT spam.

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So you'll get 2 wanted cards in the T-70 expansion.

Here's the thing...

A 'fix' is by it's very nature something that you'd want on every ship of that type. That is why I assume FFG always includes extra copies of cards we call fixes.

2 refits, 2 autothrusters, 4 X1 and ATC's... So if this is intended to be a fix for an existing ship it isn't keeping with how FFG has done things so far to have people buy more of a ship they can use in a 100 point game, so they can get enough fixes to use the ship it was designed for in the first place.

So while I do think this is going to be a good upgrade, and an auto-include in many cases. It doesn't IMO fit what I'd expect from FFG as being a Fix like other cards we've seen so far.

Also if this was a 3 point buff for the T-65, it's also a 3 point buff for the T-70...

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@VanorDM.  The problem is that you don't need to fix every x-wing.  many of the named pilots are already pretty good with existing abilties/cards.  Its always been the generic x-wing pilots, poor Red and Rookie that saw the least amount of table time.  This is a fix thats very ideally suited for them with a 1 point astro.  Many of the named x-wing like Luke and Wedge don't want it...they want a shield or engine upgrade etc.  The T-70 CAN take it....but doesnt want it.  The T-70 wants Autothrusters.  So youre left with a few choice named x-wings and generics.  Biggs, Tarn and Porkins really want it.  Red and Rookie want it too.  Seems pretty well chosen given the limits of current pilots and abilties.  

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So you'll get 2 wanted cards in the T-70 expansion.

Here's the thing...

A 'fix' is by it's very nature something that you'd want on every ship of that type. That is why I assume FFG always includes extra copies of cards we call fixes.

2 refits, 2 autothrusters, 4 X1 and ATC's... So if this is intended to be a fix for an existing ship it isn't keeping with how FFG has done things so far to have people buy more of a ship they can use in a 100 point game, so they can get enough fixes to use the ship it was designed for in the first place.

So while I do think this is going to be a good upgrade, and an auto-include in many cases. It doesn't IMO fit what I'd expect from FFG as being a Fix like other cards we've seen so far.

Also if this was a 3 point buff for the T-65, it's also a 3 point buff for the T-70...

 

Most of the original discussion was that the T-70 was overcosted relative to jousting efficiency so this makes sense.  FFG consciously does not call these things "fixes" so any labeling we do will be arbitrary and meaningless.

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@VanorDM.  The problem is that you don't need to fix every x-wing.

Yeah you kinda do. Wedge is still only as good as the ship he's on. MajorJuggler's math has showed that all X-Wings are too expensive.

Biggs is the only X-Wing that comes close to being correctly valued for it's jousting value. Even Wedge is still about 1.5 points too expensive.

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I think this is the "fix" and I don't think it works as the fix the x-wing needs

I think you're right, sadly.

They listened to the guys saying the X-wing would be fine with one more hitpoint. It's better and worse than that at the same time. It's better since you can ignore any crit you want. For 1 Point. It encourages taking R2 or R5. And its certainly better for gemerics than named pilots.

Sadly they're wrong, the named pilots don't see play either and needed the buff nearly as direly as the generics.

So yes it's better than nothing but leaves a sour taste nonetheless. At least the only time its useless is if you want to take engine upgrade or no astromech. Otherwise it's better than losing your ship.

What i don't like is that they really cement the T-65 X-Wing even more as a pure joust ship. They did not listen to those saying it needs mobility, not durability, which would have been better for the named pilots probably.

And i still don't see how i would ever play the T-65 in competitive play. Either its still a B-Wing or it's the T-70 which fixes the flaws of the T-65 from the bat. And Blue squadron novice with R2 and this here seems pretty okay to me. No Autothrusters but hey...

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Most of the original discussion was that the T-70 was overcosted relative to jousting efficiency so this makes sense.

That's because the T-70 isn't a jouster. The whole point of fixing the X-Wing was as ForceM pointed out to make it in to something other then just a sub-par jouster.

I'd actually be happy to be proven wrong, but I do not see this upgrade being enough to get T-65's to be a regular part of competitive play, especially with the T-70 out there.

So if we are looking at this as a Fix, then it fails to achieve that goal IMO at least. It's not going to be effective enough, and is again IMO a rather hamfisted fix considering the other things FFG has done.

So while I'll use it, I will continue to expect something else to be done for the T-65's.

Edited by VanorDM

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The other problem is that the X-wing, in Star Wars lore is not the most maneuverable starfighter.  How many times in ANH did we see pilots saying "Can't shake him!" or "theyre coming in too fast!"  Thematically the X-wing is not a dodgy fighter, not even a great fighter for that matter.  If X-wings had been better, would the A-wing and B-wing even have happened or seemed appealing?  The X-wing a compromise fighter, a space superiority fighter that can act as a bomber (torps) when needed.  

 

What was the X-wing role in the attack on the first Death Star?  Distraction.  They were meant to fly high cover for the Y-wings, keeping imperial fighters busy long enough for Gold Squadron to hit the exhaust port.  They failed.  The TIE's were too fast and easily bypassed the X-wing escorts and wiped all but 1 of Gold Squadron.  It fell to the remaining pilots of Red Squadron to try....and they also failed.  Only ONE x-wing pilot was able to get close enough without being destroyed (barely) AND hit the exhaust port.  

 

We'd all love to see the X-wing perform amazing feats, but according to even the lore, its just not a spectacular fighter.  

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Do you lose your EPT? I can't see any precedence for something like this...

I think you'd keep your EPT, because this would work sort of the same way VI does.

Well then unless you are ps2 just take R2-D6 Since discarding it does nothing xd

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We'd all love to see the X-wing perform amazing feats, but according to even the lore, its just not a spectacular fighter.  

 

while agreed, we shouldn't be expecting a 5 health interceptor,

 

lore should never be an excuse for an underwhelming gameplay piece

 

gameplay >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lore, always and irrevocably

 

 

 

the fact that X-wings in ANH kept dying to shots from behind made me hope that they'd release an upgrade that worked when enemies were in their arc (something like Garz the Hunter's ability, only not a complete piece of green dice crap). It'd be thematically rel vent, a boon to gameplay, and an awesome addition to the strategy of the game as TIEs would suddenly have to utilize actual swarm tactics instead of just out-jousting the less maneuverable Xs.

 

oh well, integrated astro's cool and needs to be properly tested out before anyone can draw damning conclusions

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The other problem is that the X-wing, in Star Wars lore is not the most maneuverable starfighter.  How many times in ANH did we see pilots saying "Can't shake him!" or "theyre coming in too fast!"  Thematically the X-wing is not a dodgy fighter, not even a great fighter for that matter.  If X-wings had been better, would the A-wing and B-wing even have happened or seemed appealing?  The X-wing a compromise fighter, a space superiority fighter that can act as a bomber (torps) when needed.  

 

What was the X-wing role in the attack on the first Death Star?  Distraction.  They were meant to fly high cover for the Y-wings, keeping imperial fighters busy long enough for Gold Squadron to hit the exhaust port.  They failed.  The TIE's were too fast and easily bypassed the X-wing escorts and wiped all but 1 of Gold Squadron.  It fell to the remaining pilots of Red Squadron to try....and they also failed.  Only ONE x-wing pilot was able to get close enough without being destroyed (barely) AND hit the exhaust port.  

 

We'd all love to see the X-wing perform amazing feats, but according to even the lore, its just not a spectacular fighter.

Finally someone gets it. X-wings were chosen by rebels because it was available, easy to fly for bush pilots, easy to maintain (crash it in a swamp? No problem, just clean out the snakes and it's good to go...), and able to fly multiple mission types with a reasonable chance of success. More specialized fighters and bombers will always outperform it.

It's only the non-movie lore that tried to elevate the T-65 into a super secret prototype fighter that the rebels stole from the empire. A more likely origin is that the X-wing was war surplus from the clone wars (or even earlier) or it was aquired from system and sector defense forces from worlds like Alderaan.

Also, who are these people who are qualified to call such an upgrade a 'fix' or not. Noticing a coincidental pattern in upgrade distilribution in expansions does not make one an expert. If it smells like a fix, walks like a fix, looks like a fix, then it's probably a fix. Not including multiples may be due to several reasons such as space concerns, printing costs, or who knows. All I know is we might see wave 8 by the time Episode 8 happens. Maybe.

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The other problem is that the X-wing, in Star Wars lore is not the most maneuverable starfighter. How many times in ANH did we see pilots saying "Can't shake him!" or "theyre coming in too fast!" Thematically the X-wing is not a dodgy fighter, not even a great fighter for that matter. If X-wings had been better, would the A-wing and B-wing even have happened or seemed appealing? The X-wing a compromise fighter, a space superiority fighter that can act as a bomber (torps) when needed.

What was the X-wing role in the attack on the first Death Star? Distraction. They were meant to fly high cover for the Y-wings, keeping imperial fighters busy long enough for Gold Squadron to hit the exhaust port. They failed. The TIE's were too fast and easily bypassed the X-wing escorts and wiped all but 1 of Gold Squadron. It fell to the remaining pilots of Red Squadron to try....and they also failed. Only ONE x-wing pilot was able to get close enough without being destroyed (barely) AND hit the exhaust port.

We'd all love to see the X-wing perform amazing feats, but according to even the lore, its just not a spectacular fighter.

The other problem is that the X-wing, in Star Wars lore is not the most maneuverable starfighter. How many times in ANH did we see pilots saying "Can't shake him!" or "theyre coming in too fast!" Thematically the X-wing is not a dodgy fighter, not even a great fighter for that matter. If X-wings had been better, would the A-wing and B-wing even have happened or seemed appealing? The X-wing a compromise fighter, a space superiority fighter that can act as a bomber (torps) when needed.

What was the X-wing role in the attack on the first Death Star? Distraction. They were meant to fly high cover for the Y-wings, keeping imperial fighters busy long enough for Gold Squadron to hit the exhaust port. They failed. The TIE's were too fast and easily bypassed the X-wing escorts and wiped all but 1 of Gold Squadron. It fell to the remaining pilots of Red Squadron to try....and they also failed. Only ONE x-wing pilot was able to get close enough without being destroyed (barely) AND hit the exhaust port.

We'd all love to see the X-wing perform amazing feats, but according to even the lore, its just not a spectacular fighter.

Sorry but that's total nonsense. Do you think all the Ties they shoot down would not radio to their squadmates that they can't shake the X-Eing behind them? If we only could hear their radio chatter!

The lore does not say anywhere that the X-Wing is not a fast ship nor that it's not maneuvrable. An't don't say it can't barrel roll, don't you dare! They do it in the movies!

Also what the lore suggests is that X-Wings can take on swarms of Ties because of their better quality. How else would they win so many battles despite being outnombered constantly!

So what FFG should do is balance the ship how it is necessary and not anything else! Like fickle says gameplay >>> lore (even if it was like you say)

Edited by ForceM

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The lore does not say anywhere that the X-Wing is not a fast ship nor that it's not maneuvrable.

Actually according to one image I saw that George had drawn up, X-Wings, Y-Wings and Tie Fighters are all about the same speed. The idea that the X-Wing is slower and less maneuverable, or that the Y-Wing is even more so, is purely EU and Video game lore.

The bottom line is as FGD said. The lore has to come second to a balanced game. As long a the X-Wing is not a competitive ship, then something needs to be done to it. This upgrade as I said does not do enough.

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TIE pilots are numerous and may not regularly engage hostiles, while Rebels are few and are pushed to fly many many missions, so gain more skill relative to the average imperial.

Also Starfox 'barrel rolls' do not equal XWM BR action. That's just spinning! Any kid can do that!

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The lore does not say anywhere that the X-Wing is not a fast ship nor that it's not maneuvrable.

Actually according to one image I saw that George had drawn up, X-Wings, Y-Wings and Tie Fighters are all about the same speed. The idea that the X-Wing is slower and less maneuverable, or that the Y-Wing is even more so, is purely EU and Video game lore.The bottom line is as FGD said. The lore has to come second to a balanced game. As long a the X-Wing is not a competitive ship, then something needs to be done to it. This upgrade as I said does not do enough.

The diagram (two actually) is not canon, is contradicted by the films (Millenium Falcon chasing down TIE Interceptors!) and was not drawn by George, but instead one of the ILM people's IIRC.

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TIE pilots are numerous and may not regularly engage hostiles, while Rebels are few and are pushed to fly many many missions, so gain more skill relative to the average imperial.

Also Starfox 'barrel rolls' do not equal XWM BR action. That's just spinning! Any kid can do that!

 

In ANH Luke barrel rolls in a scene during the Battle of Yavin. In ESB the Falcon does as well. 

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Most annoying that the T-65 'fix' ships in the T-70 blister, and there's only one of them.  I'm really not going to go run out and buy four T-70s so I can strengthen a T-65 swarm.

 

(That it is supposed to be the X-Wing 'fix' is apparently by the limitation on it.  I mean, what harm would throwing this on a Y-Wing or E-Wing do?  It's not exactly overpowered...)

It would save Corran Horn from that direct hit. Otherwise yeah it's not going to break anything really.

 

 

The one pilot that benefits most from this is Biggs. And with him, the whole squad. So yes, I think it is a good fix but I agree that they will probably give T-65s some more love in an aces pack (notice how all the "named" pilots so far for T-70s and the new Tie FO have no real names on them).

 

That's nothing too new. Wasn't it the same with a good chunk of the original tie fighters? Though I am not hugely up to date on legends so whether they are or are not actually names of existing pilots is beyond me.

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I know this is heresy but I'm okay with a point or so not being balanced.  I doubt that tournaments are so perfectly played that 1 point difference in a ship completely throws the game.  I'm happy seeing the X-Wings be a little more maneuverable without turning into a TIE fighter.  They will now, both generics and unique, see a lot of use in friendly games.  Too many cards for fractional fixes may help with math but not necessarily the game itself.

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If you want 4 copies of this 'fix' you need to buy 4 T-70 expansions giving you 5 T-70's, which is one more then you can use. That is not something that is typical of FFG to do.

Requiring you to buy ships you don't need, in order to get upgrades that are redundant and only required in their official tournaments?

No, that's pretty much FFG's MO.

Having said that, I wouldn't be surprised to see an X Wing aces pack in the future with a T65, a T70 and some more pilots from the new movie, some unreleased X Wing pilots and the much anticipated Rogue Squadron title.

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In that respect I have been lucky to enter the game after wave 4 was released.

Yeah, I honestly think getting into X-Wing is easier now then it was. You have many more options on what to buy to make good lists, and are less likely to end up with duplicates due to lack of other options.

For example I bet you never once considered buying four Lambada Shuttles for the sake of having four advanced sensors.

 

Oh I did, because I started dreaming of X-Wing just after Paul won 2013. Watching that final match on Youtube was what was getting me hooked. I hesitated for a long time, but finally jumped into the game when I found out the city where I was moving to for university had an active community. At that point 4 Advanced Sensors Blues had already fallen out of favour. My first list was an attempt atcountering Phantoms with Roark, one Tactician B-Wing, one Ion B-WIng and a Prototype Pilot...didn't even work that badly, good times.

 

Back on topic: I would love to see some more analysis on the math side of Integrated Astromech. My feeling is that it is pretty good and makes me want to fly Rookies again, but I haven't and won't test it for a while because of tournament preperation. I need to crack those TLTs!

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@VanorDM.  The problem is that you don't need to fix every x-wing.

Yeah you kinda do. Wedge is still only as good as the ship he's on. MajorJuggler's math has showed that all X-Wings are too expensive.Biggs is the only X-Wing that comes close to being correctly valued for it's jousting value. Even Wedge is still about 1.5 points too expensive.

When TIE/adv fixes were being mused upon, people were worried any potential fix would make Vader too good. The x1 fix made him amazing. Maybe it's okay if Wedge ends up being just a little nuts with whatever an eventual fix is. He's still in a modest mid-range fighter. Give the Rebels someone to bid to PS 9 with that's not Han.

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