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DocIII

I need a good Ultramarines atrocity...

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Atheosis said:

While I agree with what you are saying, I would just like to point out that not every human has the same emotional reactions to any given thing.  Space Marines are almost certainly aberrant in their psychology but that doesn't mean their psychology is fundamentally inhuman.

Not every person has the same reaction to warfare.  Some actually enjoy it.  Such individuals may ultimately join the special forces and make a career out of killing people.  They're still human.  Do you remember the huge firefight between a pair of criminals in body armor and the LA police back in the nineties?  Those guys stood out in the open and actually seemed to be enjoying themselves.  Such behavior is certainly aberrant, but it doesn't nullify that such individuals remain human and still have human emotions.

This is true.  However, non-aberrant individuals could very well see such actions (those crazy guys in LA, Genocide death and **** squads in some of the ethnic cleansing conflicts various places around the globe, etc. etc.) as attrocity even though the actors, human, inhuman or otherwise see them as correct and righteous.  Kind of the whole point.

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DocIII said:

This is true.  However, non-aberrant individuals could very well see such actions (those crazy guys in LA, Genocide death and **** squads in some of the ethnic cleansing conflicts various places around the globe, etc. etc.) as attrocity even though the actors, human, inhuman or otherwise see them as correct and righteous.  Kind of the whole point.

Pretty much this.

I mean, whose to say which people are crazy and who is sane? Righteous or wicked? Perhaps sanity or the lack of it is just a matter of perception? Is there really an ultimate authority who can tell us all that **** or murder is inherently wrong to commit against other human beings? Sure, these practices may have been outlawed in most societies mainly because a majority of people have agreed that they would like to minimize the risk of suffering from these crimes, but can anyone really claim any sort of "universal wrongness" with ****** or murdering other people?

Perhaps one would argue that it goes against God's will to do so, but no one could really quote God in this case mainly because of two things. First of all God isn't recognized as an ultimate and universal authority by everyone and second, there are many contradictorial statements made about God in many holy texts (If anyone wish to read, I could quote some lines from the Bible where God himself sanctions the ****** and murdering of several people).

So if we take God out of the equation, all that's left would be the scientific theories. But since when did chemical chance or evolution ever cared about the righteousness or wickedness about **** and murder? It's not like these phenomena are even capable of reasoning and brooding over these matters (they are just simple natural forces after all, they don't need reasons or purpose to exist, and they don't try to find reasons and purpose with anything either).

So, according to the only kind of universal and nihilistic truth, the only wickedness/wrongness about any action mainly bottles down to the perception of the individual. In fact, a psychologist isn't in any way more qualified to tell who is sane and who is insane than any joe shmo on the street is. I mean how could we possibly know that all the people classified as paranoid schizofrenics out there are "just crazy"? Perhaps they might be the only humans in the world who see the "real" truth, and the rest of us are just "blind" in some way?

Still, as much as these intllectual and philosophical musings are quite giving and expands the mind, it's not gonna change the fact that a great majority of people are in agreement of which behaviour and thought constitutes as being deviant and/or criminal. Often with little disregard to what the law say, because morals weren't created by laws, nor even religion. People had morals and ideas of these things way before the concept of laws and religion even existed.

Also to give a logical connection to our discussion, like we view paranoid schizofrenics as being "different" in mind, I believe that the common Imperial citizen would view the astartes the same way. And they would actually have a much better reason for doing so than we have, because not even today do we really know what sort of tangible chemical difference that cause schizofrenia and what makes people into psychopaths. The best that modern science have yet to come up with is reading different levels of hormones and peculiar anatomy of the brain itself in these individuals, but scientists can't say for certain if these specific "abnormalities" are really the cause of the disorder or just a symptom of it.

At least with the Adeptus Astartes, we have some sort of knowledge that they actually change the brains of them and thus create a dramatic change in the way they think, feel and percieve their surroundings.

And as for their apparent emotions, whose to say that most of these emotions are genuinely felt by an Astartes? Perhaps they just do what many psychopaths do and just mimic certain behaviour in order to fit in and not stand out too much? It would make a lot of sense, since many astartes have displayed signs of psychopathic behaviour (heck, some could even claim that this behaviour is promoted within the astartes just to create a more efficient and violent warrior), but they are also taught/programmed (in a most zealous and near fanatical way) a heavy emphasis on the chain of command and hierarchy structure, and to conform to these structures. This could quite feasibly turn the Neophytes into a sort of conformist psychopath, almost like Dexter Morgan if anyone of you've read the books or seen the tv-series.

 

Oh and also, in my opinion, the rule of cool should view astartes as inhuman in mind. Mainly because I don't see anything cool or interesting in just devolving these near mythical entities called Space Marines into "basically humans, but with power armour and controlled mutations". The existential and philosophical aspects of the "inhuman" version is by far more interesting than the latter simplistic explanation. But that's my personal opinion. gui%C3%B1o.gif

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Little Dave said:

"Only the insane prosper, only those who prosper can truly judge what is sane."

 

And I wish I could remember where I have mangeled that quote from.

Good recollection.

The line is "Only the insane have strength enough to prosper; only those that prosper truly judge what is sane".

The line has been floating around in 40k publications for ages, but the full text was spread amongst the first few pages of the Inquisitor rulebook:

"You accuse me of being a madman. What right have you to judge what is sane and what is not? I have fought with the shadows on the edge of your vision. I have seen the faces that laugh and you in your nightmares. I have smelt the foetid breath that issues from the mouth of hell itself. I have heard the silent voices that make your spine tingle with dread. I have entered the realms between worlds where there is no time or place. I have clashed with creatures the sight of which would sear you to the core. I have bested horrors that chill with a gaze and tempt unreasoning horror. I have faced death eye to eye and blade to blade. I have stared into the eyes of insanity and met their all-consuming stare. I have done all this for your protection and the guarantee of a future for Mankind. And yet you accuse me of being a madman, you who have never had your sanity tested so sorely. What right have you to call me a heretic and blasphemer, who have not heard the whisper of dark gods in your ear? You are weak. Vulnerable. Human in your frailty. I am strong, and yet still you judge me. And yet you still judge me for my sins, you who art most sinful to the heart? Only the insane have strength enough to prosper; only those that prosper truly judge what is sane."

 

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from france

no chapter is exempt of atrocities. the space wolf in "chronicles of  the heresy" killed people just because they refuse to joined the empire. the iron snake left a worl die in front of a ork invasion. they also shot imperial guard officer simply for failure to take a fortress completely forgoten that normal human can't do what marines can. they forgot what it is to be human.

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