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heychadwick

Talon Slide's effect on the game?

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So if in the new film Poe or a "Blue Squadron" pulls a handbrake turn, we will accept this new move?

That aside, I don't see people complaining about the Sloop, nor do I see it being used every other move so I would expect the same from the Troll.

I honestly think it is going to give the T70 the edge it needs to help catch Dash and his asteroid ignoring, Kyle stress reliving focus, barrel / boosting antics as most of the time, a two turn is not enough to get a shot off.

Yes. That would be pretty cool but also a lot of movie stupidity. Mary Sue maybe? At least plot armor.

Back to topic you've completely forgotten that the Troll has two different end points in case your single k turn is blocked. PLUS you still have a Kturn. Plus you have some lee way on where you exactly end up. Making completing the troll much easier mechanically.

Whereas in a segnors or a k turn, it is exacting. You hit something by a centimeter: sorry you're going the wrong direction stressed.

This ties into blocking: they're much harder to block just for this move. Add in your extra better dial and barrel roll and boost? This is stupid.

 

You make it sound like the ability to move a T-70 10 mm forward or back on a T Roll is going to shatter the meta. 

 

I'm sorry, but you either need to git gud, or stop playing competitive table top games. If you plan your squad and it's movements tactically, it's not any harder. For me, the T-70 gives the Rebels a ship cheap enough to actually use, but maneuverable enough to actually fight against things like Super Fel.

 

Get over it. I mean this with all offense. You're acting like a crybaby having a temper tantrum because, what? An otherwise unnotable ship has come out with a new maneuver to counter your tactics effectively? Or is it because people disagree with your rabidly emotional, distressingly inaccurate outlook on a game?

 

Sounds to me like you need to start earning your victories again. Or just don't win. That's up to you, mate.

Edited by Razgriz25thinf

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I guess all i'm trying to say is, a month from now, nobody is going to care anymore. It'll be normal, they're be counters discovered, we all go on our merry way. The T-70 is the answered prayer for many Rebel players. If you choose to wet the bed over this thing, whatever, that's your friggin' problem. A single maneuver is physically incapable of destroying the meta as we know it. The real key to a victory with a T-70 comes from it's upgrades and it's squadmates, not because it can tokyo drift. I mean, if you know the T-70 can T Roll, and you DON'T plan your moves accordingly, then you deserve your loss. 

Edited by Razgriz25thinf

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This will be great to get into the blind spot or behind large, non turreted ships.

Getting right behind that shuttle carrying palpatine or slaver bossk in the 666. Or for a range 1 side shot on firesprays. Dodging those double arcs.

Possibly staying in range 1 of turrets like HLC or TLT.

Could be interesting. We'll see.

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Yeah, I don't understand Blail's objection to the T-Roll, well at least not the strength he voices it with. I am looking forward to having more ships with it (hopefully a scummer here and there) as it gives another option, and I also like the combination of K-Turn and S-Loop or T-Roll on the same dial. It gives a couple of options and makes people think about the options.

 

Think how predictable the Defender is once it gets in a furball, always flipping back and forth on their White K-Turns, now you need to out think your opponent with a T-70 in if they are going to K-Turn OR T-Roll and how am you going to react (something other than shouting "suck my turret" and not caring about positioning)

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You make it sound like the ability to move a T-70 3 cm forward or back on a T Roll is going to shatter the meta.

mm, not cm. Shifting 3 cm forward or back would be pretty huge in this game.

 

Thanks for that catch. I'm not sure why, but i was thinking that the small ship bases were 8 cm long, but that's big ships.

 

This really only reenforces my point; the difference between at the front of the base, and at the back, will 70% of the time mean nothing.

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That's one main thing.  These extra special moves make the existing special amenvuers look bland.  Bad design. 

 

They're forgiving as a u-turn, which is totally new.  

 

As for you assholes who keep trying to say "Blail said its OP".  Please quote me.  Yeah.  Go to hell.  

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That's one main thing.  These extra special moves make the existing special amenvuers look bland.  Bad design. 

 

They're forgiving as a u-turn, which is totally new.  

 

As for you assholes who keep trying to say "Blail said its OP".  Please quote me.  Yeah.  Go to hell.  

Oh dang, we want to make a new, cool maneuver? No, let's not introduce anything in the game cooler than all the old stuff because it'd make the old stuff look boring.

That's literally your argument. That nothing new should be cooler than anything old. 

 

You know what really is bad design? Your argument. 

 

The fact of the matter here is that you refuse to accept that you don't like this maneuver just because. You keep trying to come up with these poorly thought out arguments that get worse and worse as they get shot down quicker than a Rookie T-65 pilot. Just accept that you don't like it because it beat you and you can't handle that. 

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That's one main thing.  These extra special moves make the existing special amenvuers look bland.  Bad design. 

 

They're forgiving as a u-turn, which is totally new.  

 

As for you assholes who keep trying to say "Blail said its OP".  Please quote me.  Yeah.  Go to hell.  

Oh dang, we want to make a new, cool maneuver? No, let's not introduce anything in the game cooler than all the old stuff because it'd make the old stuff look boring.

That's literally your argument. That nothing new should be cooler than anything old. 

 

You know what really is bad design? Your argument. 

 

The fact of the matter here is that you refuse to accept that you don't like this maneuver just because. You keep trying to come up with these poorly thought out arguments that get worse and worse as they get shot down quicker than a Rookie T-65 pilot. Just accept that you don't like it because it beat you and you can't handle that. 

 

 

Say yet another poster who has 59 posts.  

 

Geez, apparently I'm not very good at this game guys.  I just spend all my time talking about complicated nuances like blocking all the time with the long amount of time I've spent playing this game.  hmm.  ad hom plz. 

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That's one main thing.  These extra special moves make the existing special amenvuers look bland.  Bad design. 

 

They're forgiving as a u-turn, which is totally new.  

 

As for you assholes who keep trying to say "Blail said its OP".  Please quote me.  Yeah.  Go to hell.  

Oh dang, we want to make a new, cool maneuver? No, let's not introduce anything in the game cooler than all the old stuff because it'd make the old stuff look boring.

That's literally your argument. That nothing new should be cooler than anything old. 

 

You know what really is bad design? Your argument. 

 

The fact of the matter here is that you refuse to accept that you don't like this maneuver just because. You keep trying to come up with these poorly thought out arguments that get worse and worse as they get shot down quicker than a Rookie T-65 pilot. Just accept that you don't like it because it beat you and you can't handle that. 

 

 

Say yet another poster who has 59 posts.  

 

Geez, apparently I'm not very good at this game guys.  I just spend all my time talking about complicated nuances like blocking all the time with the long amount of time I've spent playing this game.  hmm.  ad hom plz. 

 

So my posting habits on a website directly correlate to skill at X-Wing? Dang, better hand in all my tournament victory medals. I have been shown what real skill is.

 

Also, holy crap. Did you really just say i used an Ad Hominem RIGHT AFTER using an Ad Hominem? You judged my opinions to be invalid/worthless because of my lack of posts. Lemme grab the definition of Ad Hominem for ya:

An ad hominem argument is one that is used to counter another argument; but, it is based on feelings or prejudice, rather than facts, reason or logic. It is often a personal attack on one's character rather than an attempt to address the issue at hand.

 

I said what i said because you're pretty much conclusively proving it for me. You can't form cohesive arguments for why the T Roll is bad for X-Wing without being shot down for using bad arguments, and forced to resort to personal attacks of character. You're acting like a child, and i'm calling you out for that.

Edited by Razgriz25thinf

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As for you assholes who keep trying to say "Blail said its OP".  Please quote me.  Yeah.  Go to hell.  

 

OK

 

the new ships are grossly overpowered.  why am i supposed to be excited over bad design?  Its worse than murder.  

It feels like I'm sitting in a horror movie attempting to appeal to people's wants of grotesque desires like power and gore and greed/  

 

 

dooom glooooooobm

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Say yet another poster who has 59 posts.  

 

Geez, apparently I'm not very good at this game guys.  I just spend all my time talking about complicated nuances like blocking all the time with the long amount of time I've spent playing this game.  hmm.  ad hom plz. 

 

 

Does this satisfy your need to be quoted?

What is the hang up you have with post numbers? The number of posts has very little to do with if what the post says is accurate or relevant? Hell Joe Boss whatever has probably got about 100 posts of him just putting in his "Bad Post/Thread" little images but that doesn't make him automatically more credible than someone who has less than 100 posts but makes a good point.

 

As far as I can see and recall, there wasn't this much hoo-haa over the S-Loop when it came out, just some excitement that the Starviper and Brobots got a sweet new move that shook things up.

I personally see this as the same sort of maneuver, but ending in a different facing. I am more than willing to accept the side facing allow half a barrel-roll's worth of movement makes it a tiny bit easier if you are trying to skirt around a ship/obstacle but not to the level of dislike I am getting from your posts. Like where you end your post with all caps "STUPID", oh hang on, you prefer to be quoted...

 

STUPID! 

 

In your full post, oh better quote that if I am going to make an honest go on that.

 

 

I hate it.  Now had it played against me: 

 

Its really dumb.  Trying to block the new ships is nearly impossible with so many options.  

Also the amount of variance on the talon roll ending is partciularly dumb and forgiving.  All the segnors and kturns are exact. You fail it, face the wrong way with a stress.  VERY VERY unforgiving.  The talon roll on the other hand is particularly easy, AND with two direction options, in case your primary k-turn spot is blocked.  The k-turn is also easier to block cuz it comes from a head on engagement.  

 

 

STUPID! 

Here, you mention that there are too many options to block someone. But they have more or less the same amount of maneuvers that other ships have so that is more or less the same, with the exception of 2 that give you a couple of mm of wiggle room should you wish it. At the cost of a stress...which probably makes you a little more predictable in that following turn.

In my opinion blocking shouldn't just be a case of "Oh, s/he is going to be here, how do I get a ship there?" but more of a case of "S/He is probably going to be going here, how do I make that work for me and not them, while covering my butt if they actually end up taking that other likely option instead. I don't think they will take that option, so I will leave it uncovered to focus down on this angle."

T-Rolls add a complexity to the game which I am totally behind. I just cannot get my head around why you dislike it so much. And honestly after your continued posts about it, I don't think you can explain your position any better than you already have so I am unlikely to be able to have my mind changed. I am happy to agree to disagree on this and call it quits.

 

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Well let's see what the game looks like in 3 months.

 

If the T-rolling T-70s are dominating the game and no other ships except turreted ships have a chance of getting off a shot them Blail will be correct in his statement that the T-roll was a very bad game mechanic. 

 

However if the games I played this week are not just a fluke, the T-roll is a stress inducing move that can bring quick death when dialed up at the wrong time.  Or maybe my Tie fighters are just used to another off set K-Turn from all their years of fighting Advanced Sensor B-Wings.

 

Only time will tell.

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There is a real life Talon Roll fighter pilots use in dogfighting. It's called a High Speed Yo-Yo. It allows a less maneuverable aircraft to stay on the tail of the more maneuverable one...

 

high_speed_yoyo.jpg

When the attacker realizes that he is unable to stay on the inside of the defender's turn, he relaxes his angle of bank a little, then pulls high. As he comes over the top he is inverted, looking down at his opponent through the top of his canopy. His speed falls due to the climb, and this diminishes his radius of turn. The 1g of gravity is utilized by turning in the vertical plane, which reduces the radius of turn still further. The attacker should then be well placed to slide down into a firing position.

 

The high-speed yoyo is a very difficult maneuver to perform well, and demands perfect timing and precise execution. If it is commenced too early, the defender can counter by pulling up into the attack. If started too late, the attacker is forced to pull up at an excessively steep angle to avoid overshooting. This allows the defender to disengage by diving away. A common fault in executing the high-speed yoyo is not pulling the nose high enough. This can result in the attacker ending directly above the defender. Some pilots find that they obtain better results from a series of small yoyos than one large one. A variant on this maneuver, used to prevent overshooting or to reduce the angle-off, is the rollaway.

As a Warthunder veteran i can tell you this works extremely well if you can pull it off. I have been accused of cheating multiple times when i did it to Spitfires in faster but less maneuvrable 109s. You dive after them, they break for a hard turn, you do a rolling high Yoyo and cut inside the turn. Best thing is thaz you bleed a lot less energy than them doing so. So if they spot it you can climb away.

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As for you assholes who keep trying to say "Blail said its OP". Please quote me. Yeah. Go to hell.

OK

the new ships are grossly overpowered. why am i supposed to be excited over bad design? Its worse than murder.

It feels like I'm sitting in a horror movie attempting to appeal to people's wants of grotesque desires like power and gore and greed/

dooom glooooooobm

As i suppose the original post is gone, Blail i feel you are going way too far on this one. I have had heated discussions and said stuff i better would not have. But you are literally insulting people and that's not fine at all.

I agree on exactly 2 things with you.

1) The T-70 makes the T-65 look like a piece of scrap metal unless they find a very good fix for the T-65. But that's not as bad since the T-70 makes me hope for a quick fix finally. And if you look around the forum there is hardly anyone that has advocated for an X-Wing fix louder than me!

2) The Defender does look a lot more overcosted now. You have a base ship of 24 vs 30 points. Well make it 26 vs 31 points as the T-70 will want Autothrusters and the Defender TIE MkII engines.

That's 5 points for ships with very similar durability( because Autothrusters) where the T-70 wins on upgrades as cannons are pretty much wasted on a defender and the potential new Tech upgrades plus Astromech will potentially allow awesome combos.

They both have a nice trick in their bag with White K vs Talon Roll. I'd call that a draw.

Stress shedding on the Defender is better with the new Engines.

Pilot abilities are roughly equal in power. Vessery can be very good if you team him up right, but i'd still call it a small win for the X-Wing since both its pilots have good abilities and one generic has an EPT. So all in all i wouls say the Defender and T-70 are roughly equal in power.

Just that the Defender is on average 5 points more expensive. That's quite a lot and i feel bad for the Defender.

But... We already knew that the Defender was overcosted a lot. So you can't potentially ask FFG to bring out a new ship that has its cost based on a really overcosted one. At least they don't do the same mistake twice. What we can ask is to get another Defender fix than only MkII engines! It's not enough, the ship is still overpriced!

On the whole rest i disagree with Blail. We don't need the Foo Fighter or the T-70 to be as bland as the T-65 or the Tie/Ln. Power creep is probably true on the X-Wing, but again, we need a fix for the ship not another bad X-Wing! On the Tie i disagree, no power creep there! I think the old Tie is still the better swarm ship. You have 2 attacks and the only way you will achieve anything with that is pure weight of fire. And you can bring more Ln's than Fo's. Terefore i prefer the cheaper ship. You also don't want to load up an Fo on upgrades as it will not be able to pull its weight in points with 2 Attacks. So even if it has these options i would not even recommend filling the slots out.

The Talon roll that seems to make you rage so much is in reality something we have already seen on the B-Wing. You advanced sensors Barrel roll and do the 2K to end up stressed. I don't know about your obsession with blocking, but we already have a lot of more maneuvrable ships than the new X-Wing. Try to block an Agressor with Advanced Sensors for example. Good luck. So nobody seems to understand your problem with the Talon Roll and for good reasons. It's really not a big deal, just a gimmick. That stresses the ship!

Edited by ForceM

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Personally, I think it's a non-issue in a month.  People will just get used to it.  Of course it's a better ship because it's been 30 years!  I'd hope they build better ships in that time.

 

My biggest complaint with the Talon Roll?

 

Man, that thing should have been on Starvipers. Combine with Sloops, you'd have a dancing butterfly of doom.

 

Still terribly costed, of course, but at least it'd have distinction. ;)

 

I have to take exception with this point.  I've only played Xizor, but I've won more games than lost with him.  I use him in a Z-95 swarm and he's great.  The worst match up is Soontir Fel or Phantoms.  The best match up is Fat Turrets.  I don't find Xizor over costed at all.  I think he's awesome.  

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I have to take exception with this point.  I've only played Xizor, but I've won more games than lost with him.  I use him in a Z-95 swarm and he's great.  The worst match up is Soontir Fel or Phantoms.  The best match up is Fat Turrets.  I don't find Xizor over costed at all.  I think he's awesome.

I love me some Xizor. I think he's going to take a hit now TLTs are A Thing, though. Yes, he's got three greens and Autothrusters, but I seem to remember someone somewhere talking about how green dice aren't totally reliable?

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Well, it is a game played for fun and I am looking forward to having fun.   :)

 

Interesting.  Recently definitely started having a lot less fun.  In fact, I think my games against the core set have been some of the worst feelings I've had since starting this game.  And it was also in public with a bunch of nice, friendly, intelligent (and tournament-competitive) people I know who couldn't tell me that I was feeling slighted for no good reason either.

Having fun is a choice. If you aren't having fun then you have chosen to let something bother you.

I agree with you that the T70 is not a fix for the X-Wing. I still believe that we will get a fix for the T65 though.

If you don't want to be patient for the fix that will come and choose to ignore all the fun stuff that is being added to the game then again that is your decision.

I see nothing meta defining wit the new core release. T70's aren't going to dominate the meta based upon what we have seen so far. I expect them to show up competitively but they should be just another option.

 

fairs fair on that.  

 

id just rather see more strictness on maneuverability.  just seems like an ever ascending slope of better and better.  

 

I don't think they'll dominate either.  Also, I haven't said they will either. 

I'm more talking about why I don't like it from a design perspective.  

 

 

"id just rather see more strictness on maneuverability". That line alone scares me the most out of what you have been saying so far.

With the onset of fat turrets we entered an era where maneuverability did not count for quite as much and that was the first time I felt a small decrease in the fun I received from the game (thankfully I have since learned how to deal with that).

This was because, and a lot of persons will agree, X-Wing was most fun when it was more about the movements. The positioning. The guessing. Trying to predict your opponent's next move logical only for him to throw you a curve ball.

Taking that away, adding restraints on how you can move, seems completely opposed to the very nature of the game. Being unable to reliably predict how to block a ship seems almost more like a fix to me. Unpredictability among my friends breeds fun.

P.S.:This is a legitimate, non-antagonizing question: Have you often won your games prior to the set's release? This (and I do not know because I do not know you) feels like you are experiencing a string of losses for the first time. Again, I have no idea and mean no insult, but it just sounds like it a bit.

 

Well. I could also say, I want the system of the game to be sound.  How's that?  

That's more of what I mean.  I want there to be some things that should be easy and some things that should be hard.  We learn early that mucking up a k-turn is one of the worst things you can do.  

 

Yes, I LOVE the positioning.  But to me that also includes blocking, not simply allowing the post-movement high PS player to dictate range with Boost BR, and using even more ships versus using less ships. 

I think your talk about turrets means we are on the same page. 

I love seeing people play 4+ ships well.  It shows that they've dedicated time to learn how to use so many ships.  Its also not easy.  Much harder to set 5 dials.  It also means you have less PS, you have to do a lot more actual predicting, vs post-movement motion.  

 

--

 

I've actually gone 1-1-1. Literally.   Which is not a large sample size, but I didn't like the theory of the new core anyway. 

 

The tie game was particularly dumb.  It took 75 minutes to simply kill Poe with some Zs.  Game did not finish. He also took out the same number of points that Poe was worth.  And I had a much harder time keeping track of so many ships with upgrades and ranges for missiles.  (I'm a decently strong player so the missiles were meant to be a fun challenge, but they ended up being the only way to get damage through the autothrusters + R3 boosting away from normal attacks, regen with astromech, etc etc.)  

Via blocking into bad angles for him, forcing slam/boost to avoid 4arcs, I consistently stopped 2/3s of his list from attacking for the first 3 turns of combat.  I got TLs while he had no shots on me.  I hit no rocks.  I forced him into the corner of the board where he had the least room to move.  I literlally had 4 ships attacking against 1ship only for 3 turns.  And it still didnt matter. 

 

This of course, tells you that my opponent was similarly skilled.  He played very well. 

 

Just all in all, it really put to rest any notion that a list that I've tweaked for over 15 or so games would ever amount to anything.  Mostly due to that extra maneuverability.  Could not predict him at all.  Blocks didn't happen against the new X. 

 

 

I can see your point of view and I do actually agree with a good bit of what you have said (especially the turrets). While we may disagree on the Talon Roll, I do really appreciate the civil discourse. :-)

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I have to take exception with this point.  I've only played Xizor, but I've won more games than lost with him.  I use him in a Z-95 swarm and he's great.  The worst match up is Soontir Fel or Phantoms.  The best match up is Fat Turrets.  I don't find Xizor over costed at all.  I think he's awesome.

I love me some Xizor. I think he's going to take a hit now TLTs are A Thing, though. Yes, he's got three greens and Autothrusters, but I seem to remember someone somewhere talking about how green dice aren't totally reliable?

I disagree. With access to the sensor slot for sensor jammer, boost/BR, an EPT, and access to autothrusters him and Guri get a little better in the TLT meta. I think TLT is worded such that it screws you out of shunting off damage but that's what Guri is for. Even a generic splashed in for 29 points with AT is a decent buy.

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Forgive me, but isn't the Tallon Roll almost exactly the same as what a B-wing with advanced sensors can pull off? 

 

I know B-wing doesn't get to slide at the end of the k-turn, so X has a bit of "fudge space". But B can fudge with the barrel before the manouver, so gets to choose three general end positions if it wants to make a 180 turn and adjust them slightly in mid-sequence.

 

And B is a more effective jouster for its points, too.  

 

What about a phantom, I've played some games with/against Echo with stygium and PTL (so basically decloak with 2" bank, get evade action, get extra action via PTL off of the evade) and I'd think if you consider TRoll horribly broken due to its unpredictability, this Echo build with approximately 200 possible post-manouver positions (approximately, because if you factor in the fudge after decloak and fudge after barrel roll, all accurate prediction attempts go out the window) should completely set you off.

 

 

 

 

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