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heychadwick

Talon Slide's effect on the game?

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Well, it is a game played for fun and I am looking forward to having fun.   :)

 

Interesting.  Recently definitely started having a lot less fun.  In fact, I think my games against the core set have been some of the worst feelings I've had since starting this game.  And it was also in public with a bunch of nice, friendly, intelligent (and tournament-competitive) people I know who couldn't tell me that I was feeling slighted for no good reason either.  

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I agree with you that, mechanically, it is probably just fine.

Like I stated earlier, my problem is with the flavor. X-wings are not supposed to be arc-dodgers. Whoever is was that decided the x-wing should fill the same role as tie interceptors and a-wings made a big mistake, IMO (note, that could be someone at FFG, or it could JJ or someone at Lucasfilm).

The T-Roll is a manoeuvre you have to set in the planning phase. If your interceptor loses arc on a T-70 because they've T-Rolled, you've not been arc-dodged, you've been out-thought. And I'm REALLY not seeing the ability to slide half a base back or forth at the end of it to be the enormous dumbing-down game-balance-breaking change that Blail's insisting that it is rather than being, say, "a bit more difficult to block".

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Well I'm a nice, friendly, intelligent, and competitive player who will tell you that you're feeling slighted for no good reason. Your tears over this are complete vanity.

"friendly":  "And that, is why you fail."  hmm. 

 

I could believe you that this isn't in mean spirit if you tell me so. 

 

--

 

either way, im not in the slightest happy about what this core set does to old ships, underperforming ships, power creep, extra mobility or even just design aesthetic of strictly better.  

 

Maybe I'm having a bad few weeks, but I've also tried looking at this objectively with the current data, and I don't like it nor do I like what its supposed to make me feel (awesome!!!!  super crazy new moves!!)

 

Also boost for autothrusters is such a lazy stupid fix for turrets.  Probably one of the other strong ADDITIONAL reasons why ships with only BR have been rather underperforming also:  tie bomber, syck, defender, generic ewing. 

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This is why it's awesome:

 

11986937_10153119631678067_5057009859711

 

Also, I feel like I need to reiterate.  It makes 100% sense for a ship that was designed some 25-30 years AFTER the TIE Interceptor to be able to perform maneuvers that the Interceptor cannot.

 

But that picture, though...

 

There's so much wrong with this too:  That defender is so strictly outclassed its not even funny.  Too expensive, nowhere near as good upgrades, and now even not maneuverable enough.  That white 4k is so so so so overcosted now.  It used to be great as a move, now, seriously not so sure.  

 

First this game becomes mostly a guess game:  WHICH t-roll/4k (THREE OPTIONS) did you pull?  None of my moves also cover these anymore.  Unlike the white 4k, being pretty good at least having a shot on most of them. 

 

Vessery at PS6 cant even see which move you do, and can't even take advantage of BR to get you back in arc.  

 

--

 

edit:  note this is kind of irrelevant cuz we dont know where the defender started anyway.  Looks like he made a silly mistake of chasing the X70s tail fire isntead of actually pointing in the direction he should be travelling.  Or hes shooting at something else, and this is just something that happened in the game... in which case we don't look into it too closely. 

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You do realize that there are ships that roll 4 or 5 dice at range 3 and have autothrusters, right? They also have unpredictable dials and sometimes better attacks. Super Poe is really vulnerable to HLCs or anything at r2 or 1.

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Well, it is a game played for fun and I am looking forward to having fun.   :)

 

Interesting.  Recently definitely started having a lot less fun.  In fact, I think my games against the core set have been some of the worst feelings I've had since starting this game.  And it was also in public with a bunch of nice, friendly, intelligent (and tournament-competitive) people I know who couldn't tell me that I was feeling slighted for no good reason either.

Having fun is a choice. If you aren't having fun then you have chosen to let something bother you.

I agree with you that the T70 is not a fix for the X-Wing. I still believe that we will get a fix for the T65 though.

If you don't want to be patient for the fix that will come and choose to ignore all the fun stuff that is being added to the game then again that is your decision.

I see nothing meta defining wit the new core release. T70's aren't going to dominate the meta based upon what we have seen so far. I expect them to show up competitively but they should be just another option.

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Well, it is a game played for fun and I am looking forward to having fun.   :)

 

Interesting.  Recently definitely started having a lot less fun.  In fact, I think my games against the core set have been some of the worst feelings I've had since starting this game.  And it was also in public with a bunch of nice, friendly, intelligent (and tournament-competitive) people I know who couldn't tell me that I was feeling slighted for no good reason either.

Having fun is a choice. If you aren't having fun then you have chosen to let something bother you.

I agree with you that the T70 is not a fix for the X-Wing. I still believe that we will get a fix for the T65 though.

If you don't want to be patient for the fix that will come and choose to ignore all the fun stuff that is being added to the game then again that is your decision.

I see nothing meta defining wit the new core release. T70's aren't going to dominate the meta based upon what we have seen so far. I expect them to show up competitively but they should be just another option.

 

fairs fair on that.  

 

id just rather see more strictness on maneuverability.  just seems like an ever ascending slope of better and better.  

 

I don't think they'll dominate either.  Also, I haven't said they will either. 

I'm more talking about why I don't like it from a design perspective.  

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This is why it's awesome:

 

11986937_10153119631678067_5057009859711

 

Also, I feel like I need to reiterate.  It makes 100% sense for a ship that was designed some 25-30 years AFTER the TIE Interceptor to be able to perform maneuvers that the Interceptor cannot.

 

But that picture, though...

 

That picture? The TIE-D was boned from the start. It wouldn't have had the E-Wing in arc anyway and Keyan Farlander would be wailing on it from pretty much the same position. An A-Wing or Interceptor with Daredevil would have it in arc. Same end result.

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I don't think the S-loop broke the game.  I don't see this doing it, either.  You just know that they have more movement options.  They do get stressed for doing it, too.  I dunno.   Doesn't seem like it breaks anything.  You just have to get used to the new moves.

I like S-loop.  But I also like that it doesn't slide around at the end in case you misjudged by a centimeter.  

 

Its just grewha'sd,f;.  Why is this being added, and why am I supposed to think this is cool. 

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Having fun is a choice. If you aren't having fun then you have chosen to let something bother you.

To be fair, it's nowhere near that clear-cut. If you can just say "I'm not going to let this upset me" and make that work for you, then I'm honestly envious. But not everyone's wired that way and that doesn't make their feelings any less real or valid. It's certainly not always (or even often) a "decision" to let something get under your skin.

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Well, the game is named X-wing.  If any ship had a slight edge, I'd want it to be that ship.  I don't want anything broken, but I think it adds a bit more maneuvering to the game.  While I see an ever increasing range of motion, I also see that you have to predict more.  It means that the Tie Interceptor isn't the only highly mobile ship in the game.  I just see a few more options that aren't about just being a fat turret firing 360.  That makes me happy.  It means if you can guess where your opponent is going to be, you are doing well.  The X-wing has some more options.  

 

EDIT:  With hyper movement ships already out there, you can't let the genie back in the bottle.  The only other option is to allow other ships to do it, too.

Edited by heychadwick

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The TIE Interceptor and A-Wing now have less maneuver options than the TIE Fighter/FO and the T-70. It has nothing to do with the advance of technology or those ships being faster or more maneuverable, but only with the game developer coming up with a new ideas (or finally deciding to implement tjose ideas - which seems less likely) as time goes on. The problem is that the earlier ships start to feel dated as they probably would have access to the new maneuvers had they existed when the old ships were released.

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Well, it is a game played for fun and I am looking forward to having fun.   :)

 

Interesting.  Recently definitely started having a lot less fun.  In fact, I think my games against the core set have been some of the worst feelings I've had since starting this game.  And it was also in public with a bunch of nice, friendly, intelligent (and tournament-competitive) people I know who couldn't tell me that I was feeling slighted for no good reason either.

Having fun is a choice. If you aren't having fun then you have chosen to let something bother you.

I agree with you that the T70 is not a fix for the X-Wing. I still believe that we will get a fix for the T65 though.

If you don't want to be patient for the fix that will come and choose to ignore all the fun stuff that is being added to the game then again that is your decision.

I see nothing meta defining wit the new core release. T70's aren't going to dominate the meta based upon what we have seen so far. I expect them to show up competitively but they should be just another option.

 

fairs fair on that.  

 

id just rather see more strictness on maneuverability.  just seems like an ever ascending slope of better and better.  

 

I don't think they'll dominate either.  Also, I haven't said they will either. 

I'm more talking about why I don't like it from a design perspective.  

 

 

"id just rather see more strictness on maneuverability". That line alone scares me the most out of what you have been saying so far.

With the onset of fat turrets we entered an era where maneuverability did not count for quite as much and that was the first time I felt a small decrease in the fun I received from the game (thankfully I have since learned how to deal with that).

This was because, and a lot of persons will agree, X-Wing was most fun when it was more about the movements. The positioning. The guessing. Trying to predict your opponent's next move logical only for him to throw you a curve ball.

Taking that away, adding restraints on how you can move, seems completely opposed to the very nature of the game. Being unable to reliably predict how to block a ship seems almost more like a fix to me. Unpredictability among my friends breeds fun.

P.S.:This is a legitimate, non-antagonizing question: Have you often won your games prior to the set's release? This (and I do not know because I do not know you) feels like you are experiencing a string of losses for the first time. Again, I have no idea and mean no insult, but it just sounds like it a bit.

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Well, it is a game played for fun and I am looking forward to having fun.   :)

 

Interesting.  Recently definitely started having a lot less fun.  In fact, I think my games against the core set have been some of the worst feelings I've had since starting this game.  And it was also in public with a bunch of nice, friendly, intelligent (and tournament-competitive) people I know who couldn't tell me that I was feeling slighted for no good reason either.

Having fun is a choice. If you aren't having fun then you have chosen to let something bother you.

I agree with you that the T70 is not a fix for the X-Wing. I still believe that we will get a fix for the T65 though.

If you don't want to be patient for the fix that will come and choose to ignore all the fun stuff that is being added to the game then again that is your decision.

I see nothing meta defining wit the new core release. T70's aren't going to dominate the meta based upon what we have seen so far. I expect them to show up competitively but they should be just another option.

fairs fair on that.  

 

id just rather see more strictness on maneuverability.  just seems like an ever ascending slope of better and better.  

 

I don't think they'll dominate either.  Also, I haven't said they will either. 

I'm more talking about why I don't like it from a design perspective.

The "fix" we do get for the X-Wing will more than likely not give it any new fancy maneuvers as you would generally need those on the dial for practical use. So while it's too bad the T65 seems as if it's been left behind I would argue the game is a lot more fun now than what it was in Wave 1 and 2.

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The T-70 is a nice new ship and in the game I played with it last night it worked out pretty well.  Overall I would put it about at the level of the interceptor but for arc dodging not having the native barrel roll is a fair hit against them in that regard.  I will say that VI Poe with R2-D2 made for a solid match against PTL Fel and and it was a lot of fun running the two of them around the table dodging and weaving around each other.  The t-roll was something that I forgot a few times ("I should have rolled there" was said at least 3 times) but I felt that overall it fit in well with the interceptor which was good because in the Star Wars lore the two ships were designed to fill the same role.  Blue Ace didn't work out quite as well as I thought (bad piloting in part, but he did make some unexpected blocks) and the B-wing I had remaining was BADLY out of position after hunting his other ships so was stuck to Range 3 shots on Fel which hit nothing.

 

Notes that I really took away from this:

 

1) R2-D2 is a lifesaver on any ship that can boost.  Eating a proton bomb from an unforunate T-roll that flipped Direct Hit made the match much more "seat of your pants".

2) PS 10 with boost makes catching Fel a lot easier.

3) Poe with Focus is amazing.  I didn't expect his pilot ability to be quite as useful as it was.

4) In reference to 3.  Take the tech upgrade on Poe, there were a few times in that game where having that "Spend focus to make a blank a hit" would have been VERY nice (Like 1 shotting the Tie/FO on the first round of fire exchanges)

 

Overall I would like to see a few things done to make the T-65 better and more usable in the current meta (even if it's a card like the chardin refit, the Z-95 REALLY shows that the x-wing is pretty overcosted where it's at) but the format for release/distribution makes erratas on that level difficult to do unless you release a specific card/punchout pack to bring it back up to snuff and then it's another 10-15 dollars to run the ship since at that point you can't run the old version.  All that said I enjoy the T-70 and think that it's a solid addition to the rebel fleet.  Now I just need to try it against a phantom and see how it pans out.

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I've a friend that I regularly play with at my LGS, who is always so in love with new abilities, pilots, and combos, and sees nothing but potential and excitement when he first looks at a new expansion.

 

Then we put them on the table, and his combo's don't work or go off for him in a game, and mine often do, and he gets angry, wants to swear off those pilots, takes breaks from the game, and generally calls for immediate nerfing ("There should be a card that lets a turret ship ignore autothrusters" he said, as my interceptor swung in behind his falcon. "There needs to be a way to stop TLT's from shooting twice" he said, as Miranda used engine upgrade to stay clear of Boba and ping him to death.") Always, my answer to his griping is "Outmaneuver me and you'll see that these upgrades aren't so great."

 

So it is again here. While I agree the TRoll is a strong maneuver, and it does allow a little sliding so as to be a tad more forgiving than any other maneuver, it is still a maneuver, one which you should know your opponent can perform. This game is about 60% out-flying your opponent, 25% squad building, combo hunting, and knowledge, and 15% dice. That 60% is kind of important. If you know that the TRoll is an option, you should fly your list so as to counter it.

 

The earlier example of 4 Z-95's against a Super Poe, that was partially list building that lost that game (Super Poe can reasonably evade 2 every shot if he's holding a focus at range 3), but sending a single Z ahead to block, spreading your firing arcs, and using proper engagement tactics can still see you through. If Poe has nowhere to land safely, then he will not be taking the focus token that defends him so well, and at the end of the day, it's still an X-wing. With 4 ships that all move before Poe, you have to spread fire and block where he can get shots on you. Punish him for engaging, chase him if he runs. The fact that you had 48 points or more left against a ship that maxes out near 41 means you're already ahead.

 

To answer other concerns, it's still stressful, and the T-70 has 5 whole maneuvers that clear stress without a R2 astromech. Even if you don't block the TRoll/KTurn, block THOSE maneuvers. 1 bank left, 1 bank right, 1 straight, 2 straight, 3 straight. A single small ship can block all the 1's, and a second can block the 2 and 3. That leaves at least 1 ship that can get an angle to shoot the now action-less Poe, as any other maneuver will not clear his stress.

Edited by Eruletho

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Well, it is a game played for fun and I am looking forward to having fun.   :)

 

Interesting.  Recently definitely started having a lot less fun.  In fact, I think my games against the core set have been some of the worst feelings I've had since starting this game.  And it was also in public with a bunch of nice, friendly, intelligent (and tournament-competitive) people I know who couldn't tell me that I was feeling slighted for no good reason either.

Having fun is a choice. If you aren't having fun then you have chosen to let something bother you.

I agree with you that the T70 is not a fix for the X-Wing. I still believe that we will get a fix for the T65 though.

If you don't want to be patient for the fix that will come and choose to ignore all the fun stuff that is being added to the game then again that is your decision.

I see nothing meta defining wit the new core release. T70's aren't going to dominate the meta based upon what we have seen so far. I expect them to show up competitively but they should be just another option.

 

fairs fair on that.  

 

id just rather see more strictness on maneuverability.  just seems like an ever ascending slope of better and better.  

 

I don't think they'll dominate either.  Also, I haven't said they will either. 

I'm more talking about why I don't like it from a design perspective.  

 

 

"id just rather see more strictness on maneuverability". That line alone scares me the most out of what you have been saying so far.

With the onset of fat turrets we entered an era where maneuverability did not count for quite as much and that was the first time I felt a small decrease in the fun I received from the game (thankfully I have since learned how to deal with that).

This was because, and a lot of persons will agree, X-Wing was most fun when it was more about the movements. The positioning. The guessing. Trying to predict your opponent's next move logical only for him to throw you a curve ball.

Taking that away, adding restraints on how you can move, seems completely opposed to the very nature of the game. Being unable to reliably predict how to block a ship seems almost more like a fix to me. Unpredictability among my friends breeds fun.

P.S.:This is a legitimate, non-antagonizing question: Have you often won your games prior to the set's release? This (and I do not know because I do not know you) feels like you are experiencing a string of losses for the first time. Again, I have no idea and mean no insult, but it just sounds like it a bit.

 

Well. I could also say, I want the system of the game to be sound.  How's that?  

That's more of what I mean.  I want there to be some things that should be easy and some things that should be hard.  We learn early that mucking up a k-turn is one of the worst things you can do.  

 

Yes, I LOVE the positioning.  But to me that also includes blocking, not simply allowing the post-movement high PS player to dictate range with Boost BR, and using even more ships versus using less ships. 

I think your talk about turrets means we are on the same page. 

I love seeing people play 4+ ships well.  It shows that they've dedicated time to learn how to use so many ships.  Its also not easy.  Much harder to set 5 dials.  It also means you have less PS, you have to do a lot more actual predicting, vs post-movement motion.  

 

--

 

I've actually gone 1-1-1. Literally.   Which is not a large sample size, but I didn't like the theory of the new core anyway. 

 

The tie game was particularly dumb.  It took 75 minutes to simply kill Poe with some Zs.  Game did not finish. He also took out the same number of points that Poe was worth.  And I had a much harder time keeping track of so many ships with upgrades and ranges for missiles.  (I'm a decently strong player so the missiles were meant to be a fun challenge, but they ended up being the only way to get damage through the autothrusters + R3 boosting away from normal attacks, regen with astromech, etc etc.)  

Via blocking into bad angles for him, forcing slam/boost to avoid 4arcs, I consistently stopped 2/3s of his list from attacking for the first 3 turns of combat.  I got TLs while he had no shots on me.  I hit no rocks.  I forced him into the corner of the board where he had the least room to move.  I literlally had 4 ships attacking against 1ship only for 3 turns.  And it still didnt matter. 

 

This of course, tells you that my opponent was similarly skilled.  He played very well. 

 

Just all in all, it really put to rest any notion that a list that I've tweaked for over 15 or so games would ever amount to anything.  Mostly due to that extra maneuverability.  Could not predict him at all.  Blocks didn't happen against the new X. 

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Making the game more about maneuvering and positioning is something good, right?  I thought Turrets made that stuff irrelevant and that's why they were boring.  What's wrong about more ships having more maneuvers?

 

I wouldn't call the T-roll an arc dodger.  For that, I think you need to be able to reposition yourself after everyone has moved.   In other words, you do your move, but then roll and boost out of arc.  With it being a red move, it's not like you can reposition after you move.  I wouldn't call the ability to K-turn an arc dodging ability.  

 

Also, the new Ties get to S-loop, so I see new ships as being crazy and all over the place!  It sounds fun.  

 

No.  Maneuvering is considered when there are good choices and "bad" choices. Either because of rocks or opposing enemy positions, such as blocking or entering too many firing arcs.  When you have so many choices PLUS post-movement-(high PS) boost and barrel roll type things, it gets much easier to have lots of good choices.  

 

So no.  Logical fallacy:  More good is always good. 

 

tthe troll is not technically an arc dodge move yes.  But doing moves that other ships are INCAPABLE OF DOING is a hugely powerful thing to do. 

 

--

 

Yeah. they sound fun.  But also kind of wayy too kidd-ish and immature. 

 

 

so when this game first launched with X-wing, Y-wing Tie Fighter and Tie Advanced where you on here screaming about how OP the barrel roll was? Cuse.. I mean wasn't till the A-wing the Rebels got access to that move...

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Are you the same troll? red winter winters night?  Go away, mr 81 posts. 

 

also, i wasnt around then. so... what was your point again?

 

My point is that your up in arms about the T-Roll being this massively OP maneuver because it's something other ships can't do and it allows sliding. This was the exact same situation with the BR, It allows sliding along the template and was a move only Imps could do when the game launched. Granted the BR was an action so if you flubbed the movement you didn't BR but it's fairly close.

 

Also like we won't see other ships gain this on their dial in the future... and lol about posts. sorry that I don't sit around posting here all the time. Been playing since the game launched though.

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