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heychadwick

Talon Slide's effect on the game?

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We are definitely approaching a stronger tiering.

 

For the first time, I have to agree that there is definitely a tier system in X-Wing. The dividing line is now whether the ship was designed before sloop/troll or after sloop/troll. The tiering is subtle in impact and doesn't necessarily mean that a pre-ship is better than a post-ship, but it does mean that certain ships no longer feel like they should and no longer have the same maneuver superiority or even equivalence that they should.

 

In particular, the idea of an X-Wing talon rolling out of arc of a TIE Interceptor makes me frown.

 

The problem is that FFG obviously did not anticipate the game getting as large as it did. While we can't expect them to be clairvoyant, I think that it is a pretty serious oversight that no one sat down with the maneuver templates for a half hour and was asked to make a list of how ships could be placed with them. Or, I could be wrong and FFG thinks that TIE Interceptors should have fewer complex maneuvers than X-Wings - who knows?

That is called: open design space. EPTs, mods, pilot abilities, and more.

But really, most people are saying that even with such tricks, these advanced models aren't really making a splash. Options are options but as we learned from the lambda and the defender dial isn't everything...on the high end. The low end matters but give a ship all greens and unless it constantly finds itself stressed every single round that really doesn't matter.

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You still pick rolling left or right; you just have a bit of flexibility to slide back or forwards at the end (as with a normal barrel roll) - but not enough that if the end of the template lands on someone, you aren't still gonna hit them.

 

There is still a Talon Roll Left or Talon Roll Right symbol, just like there's a Segnor's Loop Left and Segnor's Loop Right symbol on the dial - you don't get to decide 'on the fly' which way you're turning.

 

Personal guess - one, it makes for interesting new options - making a ship manouvrable is generally good. And we don't have any 'canon' feel for how agile a new-generation X-wing is supposed to be compared to an older fighter. The fact that with an R2 Astromech and Push The Limit it's on a par with a TIE interceptor is impressive, though.

 

Still, I like that there are still limitations. A T-70 can turn hard 2 and boost, or turn hard 2 as a talon roll. A TIE interceptor can turn hard 2 and boost, or turn hard 2 and barrel roll - neither can do both.

 

Plus - whilst the Segnor and Talon Rolls are new, they have added a degree of backward compatibility with the Lightning Reflexes elite pilot talent, which lets you do a crazier turn than even a tallon roll would normally allow, not to mention pulling it when already stressed...

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Just because some of you are unwilling to change your tactics because a new ship has a new ability doesn't make that ability stupid.

 

Is the Tallon Roll effective? Sure. Does it break the game? Of course not, are you serious? 

 

Sink or swim, mates. You either discover a means to kill the T-70 regardless(It absolutely can be done), or the T-70 kills you. The T-70 isn't a jouster. It'll still lose in a joust. It's designed to be a high-performance, high cost arc dodger. Funny that everyone forgets that all the same complaints about the T-70 were made about the TIE Phantom when it came out. "It's too maneuverable; We can't get it in arc!" "How am i supposed to compete with 4 agility followed by a free 2-speed boost?!" "Cloaking is stupid! How do i fight it?" But we did find a way to fight it, didn't we? 

 

This thread happens every time something new comes out, then we all forget about that week we really hated that new feature because it waxed us when the next new thing comes out.

Edited by Razgriz25thinf

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Funny that everyone forgets that all the same complaints about the T-70 were made about the TIE Phantom when it came out. "It's too maneuverable; We can't get it in arc!" "How am i supposed to compete with 4 agility followed by a free 2-speed boost?!" "Cloaking is stupid! How do i fight it?" But we did find a way to fight it, didn't we? 

Bad example since the way everyone found to fight the phantom badly warped the meta and created such unfun games that FFG issued major errata to nerf the phantom and has spent the past year adding more and more stuff designed to target that counter and bring the meta back into balance.

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Funny that everyone forgets that all the same complaints about the T-70 were made about the TIE Phantom when it came out. "It's too maneuverable; We can't get it in arc!" "How am i supposed to compete with 4 agility followed by a free 2-speed boost?!" "Cloaking is stupid! How do i fight it?" But we did find a way to fight it, didn't we? 

Bad example since the way everyone found to fight the phantom badly warped the meta and created such unfun games that FFG issued major errata to nerf the phantom and has spent the past year adding more and more stuff designed to target that counter and bring the meta back into balance.

 

Ok you raise a good point, it was just the first thing i thought of. The point is, lots of things have been added to the game that everyone said would break the game, and except in the case of the Phantom(which tbh i never saw the major fallout of it's release where i am, only one person around here really went full ham on it's adoption into the meta), it never actually broke the game. The T-70 is still weak to turrets, just like all arc dodgers, and given the boom in use of TLTs, i suspect a turret squad to kill T-70s are right around the corner.

Edited by Razgriz25thinf

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I agree with you that, mechanically, it is probably just fine.

Like I stated earlier, my problem is with the flavor. X-wings are not supposed to be arc-dodgers. Whoever is was that decided the x-wing should fill the same role as tie interceptors and a-wings made a big mistake, IMO (note, that could be someone at FFG, or it could JJ or someone at Lucasfilm).

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I love how they managed to give the word TROLLING a new sense.

But seriously, why are some people salty about a maneuvrable X-Wing? I mean a very big part of the old X-wings problem was that he was so predictable and had no movement options. Now the new one has a few more tricks up its sleeve and some people don't like it? Forehead!

So then new X-Wing can be run as an arc-dodger. Well probably just Poe if we're honest. But compared to the interceptor he probably needs BB-8 for it, and he is still slower and can't perform traditional barrel rolls. The T-roll is still a red maneuver and his stress shedding is not the best.

There are already a lot of ships out there ble to perform crazy maneuvers, like Tycho w/Daredevil, Engine upgrade Defenders, advanced sensors IG-88, and boosting+barrel rolling Soontirs that still get defense tokens for their work. So this one is just a new nuance in the game if you ask me. And its good that they gave the new X-wing at least a chance to be anything else but a pure joust ship that always just goes green straight into K-Turn. Sorry that sucked from the beginning!

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I think it will have an impact when players with strong maneuvering use it. 

 

It's hard to say if it will be useful against the dodgiest of arc-dodgers, though. You troll the wrong way and they're on the other side of the map all of a sudden.

 

Just looking at the move, it seems like it is probably going to be a strong choice against PTL arc dodgers that are stuck doing 2's every round.

 

 

or 3's, with Twin Ion Engine MK II

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I agree with you that, mechanically, it is probably just fine.

Like I stated earlier, my problem is with the flavor. X-wings are not supposed to be arc-dodgers. Whoever is was that decided the x-wing should fill the same role as tie interceptors and a-wings made a big mistake, IMO (note, that could be someone at FFG, or it could JJ or someone at Lucasfilm).

 

I don't see how making an oversized(and overpointed) Z-95 is particularly thematic.  The T-70 is closer to the StarViper/E-wing than the interceptor in terms of point bracket.  It can arc dodge, and it's probably more of a testament to the A-wing's overall weakness that it's considered the premier Rebel arc dodger now.  Both the StarViper and E-wing are paying to have reasonable HP and frepower alongside their arc dodging abilities.

 

You could choose to improve the X-wing in its brute force ability(further cementing it into the oversized Z-95 role) but then you get into the B-wing territory, and I think FFG intends for the B-wing to be the best brute-force fighter the Rebels have at that point level(8 Zs is still a more efficient jousting list, but harder to play).

 

FFG has not executed a 'balanced' ship particularly well, though, in all its history, so we'll see.  The best 'balanced' ship they've made is IMO the Kihraxz fighter but it has no movement options, just a more nimble dial than the Z or X.

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I think it makes perfect sense for it to be comparably maneuverable to an interceptor. The old X wing was a powerful workhorse but it wasn't particularly fast or maneuverable. In the lore, interceptors were designed to catch them and overpower them. Thus, it makes perfect sense that the upgrades to the T70 made it more able to combat those more maneuverable craft. I'd be willing to bet that the T70 in the movie could fly against interceptors quite well.

Thus, in the game, the T70 comes with more maneuver options than it's predecessor, and powerful ones at that.

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So if in the new film Poe or a "Blue Squadron" pulls a handbrake turn, we will accept this new move?

That aside, I don't see people complaining about the Sloop, nor do I see it being used every other move so I would expect the same from the Troll.

I honestly think it is going to give the T70 the edge it needs to help catch Dash and his asteroid ignoring, Kyle stress reliving focus, barrel / boosting antics as most of the time, a two turn is not enough to get a shot off.


 

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It's just a dumb override level of power in terms of maneuverability. What's the fun of this ****. I hate it.

I want to see concretely if this actually is supposed to help vs fat turrets. I'm suggesting that for segnors this is not the case. They wanted something unique to give scum. Well look. Why give an even harder crazier thing to the rebels?

All of this to combat the first problem of Xwing design. The idiocy of the falcon. The ******* ship.

And now the t70.

Gods. I'm still not hearing much rationalization that bears scrutiny as to why this is a well designed addition to this game which I thought was in a much better place prior this.

Again. Why the flak are both the new tie fighter and the new Xwing with bb8 and boost comparatively or overtly more maneuverable than the tie interceptor AND the phantom.

I hate this set so much. It's disgusting.

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So if in the new film Poe or a "Blue Squadron" pulls a handbrake turn, we will accept this new move?

That aside, I don't see people complaining about the Sloop, nor do I see it being used every other move so I would expect the same from the Troll.

I honestly think it is going to give the T70 the edge it needs to help catch Dash and his asteroid ignoring, Kyle stress reliving focus, barrel / boosting antics as most of the time, a two turn is not enough to get a shot off.

Yes. That would be pretty cool but also a lot of movie stupidity. Mary Sue maybe? At least plot armor.

Back to topic you've completely forgotten that the Troll has two different end points in case your single k turn is blocked. PLUS you still have a Kturn. Plus you have some lee way on where you exactly end up. Making completing the troll much easier mechanically.

Whereas in a segnors or a k turn, it is exacting. You hit something by a centimeter: sorry you're going the wrong direction stressed.

This ties into blocking: they're much harder to block just for this move. Add in your extra better dial and barrel roll and boost? This is stupid.

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So if in the new film Poe or a "Blue Squadron" pulls a handbrake turn, we will accept this new move?

That aside, I don't see people complaining about the Sloop, nor do I see it being used every other move so I would expect the same from the Troll.

I honestly think it is going to give the T70 the edge it needs to help catch Dash and his asteroid ignoring, Kyle stress reliving focus, barrel / boosting antics as most of the time, a two turn is not enough to get a shot off.

Yes. That would be pretty cool but also a lot of movie stupidity. Mary Sue maybe? At least plot armor.

Back to topic you've completely forgotten that the Troll has two different end points in case your single k turn is blocked. PLUS you still have a Kturn. Plus you have some lee way on where you exactly end up. Making completing the troll much easier mechanically.

Whereas in a segnors or a k turn, it is exacting. You hit something by a centimeter: sorry you're going the wrong direction stressed.

This ties into blocking: they're much harder to block just for this move. Add in your extra better dial and barrel roll and boost? This is stupid.

So the T70 should be a boring ass z95 but you can take 4 instead of 8?

What actions is this guy going to totally dominate with that necessitate a block? You seem obsessed with the blocking thing but is this guy gonna be rolling 4 defense dice with focus and evade so that you need it to hit?

Edited by Panzeh

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Talon Roll's weaker than a AS-barrel roll/K-Turn. For a start, you have to commit to the direction whereas you can K-turn off of the barrel roll. You get more X-axis displacement with the TRoll and the maneuver only gives you 1/4 a base worth of wiggle room vs. the 1/2 base for a barrel roll. And Lightning Reflexes pretty much allow any EPT ship to be totally unpredictable.

 

Frankly, the Talon Roll is what I would have expected to see on an X-Wing. Corran is described as doing something similar in the Rogue Squadron novels (though more of a hard turn combined with Lightning Reflexes) so that's fine by me, frankly. It hasn't hit the shops here just yet but I'll be getting it, for sure. Then we'll see what kind of impact it has on the game.

 

 

Any ship with premaneuver repositioning (anything with a Systems slot or BB-8) could do that already.

 

 

Or <=PS7 with Lando pulling a Green next to them. :P

Edited by Lampyridae

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Making the game more about maneuvering and positioning is something good, right?  I thought Turrets made that stuff irrelevant and that's why they were boring.  What's wrong about more ships having more maneuvers?

 

I wouldn't call the T-roll an arc dodger.  For that, I think you need to be able to reposition yourself after everyone has moved.   In other words, you do your move, but then roll and boost out of arc.  With it being a red move, it's not like you can reposition after you move.  I wouldn't call the ability to K-turn an arc dodging ability.  

 

Also, the new Ties get to S-loop, so I see new ships as being crazy and all over the place!  It sounds fun.  

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There is a real life Talon Roll fighter pilots use in dogfighting. It's called a High Speed Yo-Yo. It allows a less maneuverable aircraft to stay on the tail of the more maneuverable one...

 

high_speed_yoyo.jpg

When the attacker realizes that he is unable to stay on the inside of the defender's turn, he relaxes his angle of bank a little, then pulls high. As he comes over the top he is inverted, looking down at his opponent through the top of his canopy. His speed falls due to the climb, and this diminishes his radius of turn. The 1g of gravity is utilized by turning in the vertical plane, which reduces the radius of turn still further. The attacker should then be well placed to slide down into a firing position.

 

The high-speed yoyo is a very difficult maneuver to perform well, and demands perfect timing and precise execution. If it is commenced too early, the defender can counter by pulling up into the attack. If started too late, the attacker is forced to pull up at an excessively steep angle to avoid overshooting. This allows the defender to disengage by diving away. A common fault in executing the high-speed yoyo is not pulling the nose high enough. This can result in the attacker ending directly above the defender. Some pilots find that they obtain better results from a series of small yoyos than one large one. A variant on this maneuver, used to prevent overshooting or to reduce the angle-off, is the rollaway.

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So if in the new film Poe or a "Blue Squadron" pulls a handbrake turn, we will accept this new move?

That aside, I don't see people complaining about the Sloop, nor do I see it being used every other move so I would expect the same from the Troll.

I honestly think it is going to give the T70 the edge it needs to help catch Dash and his asteroid ignoring, Kyle stress reliving focus, barrel / boosting antics as most of the time, a two turn is not enough to get a shot off.

Yes. That would be pretty cool but also a lot of movie stupidity. Mary Sue maybe? At least plot armor.

Back to topic you've completely forgotten that the Troll has two different end points in case your single k turn is blocked. PLUS you still have a Kturn. Plus you have some lee way on where you exactly end up. Making completing the troll much easier mechanically.

Whereas in a segnors or a k turn, it is exacting. You hit something by a centimeter: sorry you're going the wrong direction stressed.

This ties into blocking: they're much harder to block just for this move. Add in your extra better dial and barrel roll and boost? This is stupid.

So the T70 should be a boring ass z95 but you can take 4 instead of 8?

What actions is this guy going to totally dominate with that necessitate a block? You seem obsessed with the blocking thing but is this guy gonna be rolling 4 defense dice with focus and evade so that you need it to hit?

 

 

Sure.  How about you think about that little more carefully.  

Poe's ability + autothrusters (you could even add r2d2 or the focus-regeneration droid, since poes ability basically can let you keep a focus). 

Also at Range 3.  Really annoyingly hard to hit. 

If you have PTL, you even have to deal with arc dodging PLUS this crap.  Sometimes, you don't even arc dodge.  Just try and boost into things like R3 of one ship and R1 of the other.  Shoot the R1 one dead before it shoots you back. 

 

I was actually playing some Zs against Poe.  Whoo boy.  Really really annoying to hit.  Yeah.  Its not quite 4 green, but actually 4green F is easier to hit with many 2red shots than guaranteed evasion + range control via good dial and boost.  Autothrusters really hurts your damage potential.

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I hate this set so much. It's disgusting.

 

And that, is why you fail.

 

Blail, your argument is really an emotional one, not objectively based.

 

The T-roll on the new X-wing is a heaven sent answer for what the community had been asking for in numerous "X-wing needs a fix" forums. Admittedly, it is not a fix necessarily for the T-65, but at least gives the community a nod in that direction. The Tokyo drift analogy is apt and fitting for a larger space superiority fighter (at least as far as the physics of Star Wars are concerned). Not only that, it illustrates the serious advances in technology over three decades.In no way does it create an unsolvable problem that everyone has to prepare lists specifically to counter. Any of the current Meta lists and most "fun" lists have at least a 50/50 chance against the T-70.

 

I suggest taking a step back, accepting the situation, adapt and overcome.

 

 

Autothrusters really hurts your damage potential.

 

And that would be the point of Autothrusters...

Edited by Red Winter

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Making the game more about maneuvering and positioning is something good, right?  I thought Turrets made that stuff irrelevant and that's why they were boring.  What's wrong about more ships having more maneuvers?

 

I wouldn't call the T-roll an arc dodger.  For that, I think you need to be able to reposition yourself after everyone has moved.   In other words, you do your move, but then roll and boost out of arc.  With it being a red move, it's not like you can reposition after you move.  I wouldn't call the ability to K-turn an arc dodging ability.  

 

Also, the new Ties get to S-loop, so I see new ships as being crazy and all over the place!  It sounds fun.  

 

No.  Maneuvering is considered when there are good choices and "bad" choices. Either because of rocks or opposing enemy positions, such as blocking or entering too many firing arcs.  When you have so many choices PLUS post-movement-(high PS) boost and barrel roll type things, it gets much easier to have lots of good choices.  

 

So no.  Logical fallacy:  More good is always good. 

 

tthe troll is not technically an arc dodge move yes.  But doing moves that other ships are INCAPABLE OF DOING is a hugely powerful thing to do. 

 

--

 

Yeah. they sound fun.  But also kind of wayy too kidd-ish and immature. 

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I hate this set so much. It's disgusting.

 

And that, is why you fail.

 

Blail, your argument is really an emotional one, not objectively based.

 

The T-roll on the new X-wing is a heaven sent answer for what the community had been asking for in numerous "X-wing needs a fix" forums. Admittedly, it is not a fix necessarily for the T-65, but at least gives the community a nod in that direction. The Tokyo drift analogy is apt and fitting for a larger space superiority fighter (at least as far as the physics of Star Wars are concerned). Not only that, it illustrates the serious advances in technology over three decades.In no way does it create an unsolvable problem that everyone has to prepare lists specifically to counter. Any of the current Meta lists and most "fun" lists have at least a 50/50 chance against the T-70.

 

I suggest taking a step back, accepting the situation, adapt and overcome.

 

 

No, ****.  

 

I've been giving plenty of objective reasons why I feel the way I do.  

Also, by that idea, liking the set is an emotional positive reinforcement.  I would also say that using blatantly stronger tools also carries ego gratification for a sense of power and being better than others.  

 

--

 

Your answer doesn't make objective sense either:

1.  its not the t-65.  it invalidates the t-65 until they actually fix it. 

2.  while the xwing needed better movement choices, and I was forefront in that

3.  my concerns are about making worse ships into decent ships.  Do you understand that?  No.  It seems like you do not.  You like new power, more power.  If something is good, make something better to beat it.  I hate this ****.  This is beyond stupid.  This is basically the idea of current American capitalism, imperialism and arms race. 

4.  Telling people you fail is particularly rude.  

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