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heychadwick

Talon Slide's effect on the game?

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So, I don't have the Starter Set yet.  I'm merely thinking about the new T-70 and the Talon Slide. 

 

You get to take a 3 Hard Turn and then fit yourself at a right angle at the end. 

 

It's kind of like a K-turn, but you end up on the side of things.  It could be pretty cool for re-positioning things and also for getting out of someone's firing arc.  It's a bit odd, though, as you don't really put yourself able to fire at whatever was right behind you.  I'm used to just a couple of ships getting into a K-turn replay loop for a few turns.  This could change that, though.  

 

Or maybe it's to counter an S-loop?  Guess the right side and you have them dead to rights.  Guess the wrong one and...you guys are at R 2-3 of each other?

 

Anyone have experience with it to see how it might impact the game?  I'm just trying to understand how it will effect things overall.  It could be good if you are facing off vs. a whole formation of enemy and they K-turn.  You do that and you aren't facing them all this way. 

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Not tried it yet.

 

Will be calling it star wars - tokyo drift whenever I or my opponent perform it.

Like the K turn and Segnors loop it's a stress reposition tool, so really only should be used when absolutely necessary, but it does grant some nice options.

Edited by DariusAPB

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I have used Poe in several games at this point, and when there are allies on the board still, I don't find myself using this much. However, once he's alone, Poe makes terrific use of the TRoll to dodge around rocks and come at his opponent(s) from varying angles. He was the last ship on the board at one point, starting down the PS6 K-wing and Garven, and a well-timed TRoll around the biggest rock put Esege dead to rights and Garven without a shot, virtually sealing the game for me.

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I have used Poe in several games at this point, and when there are allies on the board still, I don't find myself using this much. However, once he's alone, Poe makes terrific use of the TRoll to dodge around rocks and come at his opponent(s) from varying angles. He was the last ship on the board at one point, starting down the PS6 K-wing and Garven, and a well-timed TRoll around the biggest rock put Esege dead to rights and Garven without a shot, virtually sealing the game for me.

 

Oh....around rocks!  I hadn't thought of that.  Good one.  I bet that can be great use, even if just to get the extra green die at times. 

 

I guess it could make you rather unpredictable overall.  That helps. 

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I think it will have an impact when players with strong maneuvering use it. 

 

It's hard to say if it will be useful against the dodgiest of arc-dodgers, though. You troll the wrong way and they're on the other side of the map all of a sudden.

 

Just looking at the move, it seems like it is probably going to be a strong choice against PTL arc dodgers that are stuck doing 2's every round.

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I have used Poe in several games at this point, and when there are allies on the board still, I don't find myself using this much. However, once he's alone, Poe makes terrific use of the TRoll to dodge around rocks and come at his opponent(s) from varying angles. He was the last ship on the board at one point, starting down the PS6 K-wing and Garven, and a well-timed TRoll around the biggest rock put Esege dead to rights and Garven without a shot, virtually sealing the game for me.

 

This is how my opponent used it.  Especially if you joust from a different lane, you can get into the opponents lane behind them.  Also good for flanking a force and then keeping up with them.

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I hate it.  Now had it played against me: 

 

Its really dumb.  Trying to block the new ships is nearly impossible with so many options.  

Also the amount of variance on the talon roll ending is partciularly dumb and forgiving.  All the segnors and kturns are exact. You fail it, face the wrong way with a stress.  VERY VERY unforgiving.  The talon roll on the other hand is particularly easy, AND with two direction options, in case your primary k-turn spot is blocked.  The k-turn is also easier to block cuz it comes from a head on engagement.  

 

 

STUPID! 

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A few thoughts that aren't even really fully formed:

 

1.)  It positions the ship at the end of the move as per Barrel Roll, so there's some ending flexibility.  This is a first for Planning Phase moves.  I think this is what Blail Blerg was getting at.  On lower PS pilots, there are some interesting ramifications for blocking here.  They are better blockers when performing this move because you can adjust after placing the template.  Additionally, this move and the 3-turn will block mostly the same positions, so you can block more effectively because you can choose from two final orientations during the planning phase.  Sometimes the 3-Turn position will be better, sometimes the 3-Troll position will be better.

 

2.)  It's pretty great on a ship with Boost, as you can still point your nose even after clearing stress with a green move.  

 

3.)  It lets you move toward the board edge without pointing at the board edge.  There's a few situations where this is a nice.  

 

4.)  Offset jousting is a pretty powerful way to engage swarms of high efficiency jousters.  This move lets to go from an offset position to a tailing position, or from a straight joust to an offset position

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If your opponent is on your 3 or 9 o'clock heading toward you, you Troll to the side he must go and will have a very good chance of him being in arc no matter what moves he takes.. And with the variable slide forward or backward at the end of the template you can adjust for the range you think he will be at or try to block. I think that this is going to take a lot of people by surprise.

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The effect is that flipping 180 degrees is now substantially easier. The s-loop already did this, but the Tallon Rule makes things a bit easier by using a template that is easier to visualize and by allowing you to slide your ship to determine its final position.

 

I am not sure how much I appreciate wiggle room in the planning phase. One of the most challenging aspects of this game is planning a move that you will be able to execute where failure to complete the move can be disastrous - particularly when that move is a k-turn. I would have preferred that the Tallon Roll lock you in by making you line the inside edge of the movement template parallel with the front edge of the ship's base.

Edited by Rapture

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What annoys me is that it was given to the x-wing. In my mind the TIE Fighter is supposed to be the nimble, maneuverable ship, to make up for its fragility, and the x-wing is supposed to be the mainstay workhorse, not doing anything exceptional, but doing everything well.

Now, with both boost and t-rolls, the x-wing feels more nimble and arc dodgey than the tie, as well as being tougher, and hitting harder.

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What annoys me is that it was given to the x-wing. In my mind the TIE Fighter is supposed to be the nimble, maneuverable ship, to make up for its fragility, and the x-wing is supposed to be the mainstay workhorse, not doing anything exceptional, but doing everything well.

Now, with both boost and t-rolls, the x-wing feels more nimble and arc dodgey than the tie, as well as being tougher, and hitting harder.

 

Well, considering you get two tie fighters for the cost of the lowest PS T-70(and the T-70's benefits improve with higher PS), I think you'll be fine.  The TIE fighter still has the advantageous 1-turn and 5-moves as well as a natural barrel roll.

 

The old X-wing did absolutely nothing well- it was just a Z-95 with a hull point and an attack die for a lot more points.

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I hate it.  Now had it played against me: 

 

Its really dumb.  Trying to block the new ships is nearly impossible with so many options.  

Also the amount of variance on the talon roll ending is partciularly dumb and forgiving.  All the segnors and kturns are exact. You fail it, face the wrong way with a stress.  VERY VERY unforgiving.  The talon roll on the other hand is particularly easy, AND with two direction options, in case your primary k-turn spot is blocked.  The k-turn is also easier to block cuz it comes from a head on engagement.  

 

 

STUPID!

Everything you just said is right but I love it. If you love it or hate it all depends on which side of the table you are on.

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I hate it.  Now had it played against me: 

 

Its really dumb.  Trying to block the new ships is nearly impossible with so many options.  

Also the amount of variance on the talon roll ending is partciularly dumb and forgiving.  All the segnors and kturns are exact. You fail it, face the wrong way with a stress.  VERY VERY unforgiving.  The talon roll on the other hand is particularly easy, AND with two direction options, in case your primary k-turn spot is blocked.  The k-turn is also easier to block cuz it comes from a head on engagement.  

 

 

STUPID!

Everything you just said is right but I love it. If you love it or hate it all depends on which side of the table you are on.

 

 

Yes, but it invalidates so many other ships and build options.  We are definitely approaching a stronger tiering.  

 

I wouldn't want to play it against my friends.  They want to play casual stuff.  Cool and fun ships that don't get played that often.  I can already beat some of them regardless of what I take, if i took really strong stuff, it would not be fun for them. 

Ask me again.. why do I want to kill my own game and have fun (winning) at the expense of people I care about? 

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If the T-70 is going to give them problems I tend to think most of the game is going to give them problems.  The T-roll is a strong move but this thing's dial is otherwise very vanilla.

 

My experience playing this game is maybe 300% more than their playtime.  Yes.  Most things give them a problem.  Also they have a small collection and I have nearly 200% more stuff.  So.. yes.  Should I stop playing with them?  Seems like your solution. 

 

Honestly, also, the T-70 is too hard to catch and block.  Which is an important way this game is balanced that people don't think about.  

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Played a game last night with just 3 core sets.  The amount of Trolling and Slooping going on was ridiculous!  And totally awesome!  Just the planning and activation phases were so much more interesting than they've been in a while.  And since Poe was rockin' BB-8, he cranked the maneuver game up to 11!  I feel like I'm channeling (poorly) JBR7 here, so I apologize, but it was a lot of fun. :D

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If the T-70 is going to give them problems I tend to think most of the game is going to give them problems.  The T-roll is a strong move but this thing's dial is otherwise very vanilla.

 

My experience playing this game is maybe 300% more than their playtime.  Yes.  Most things give them a problem.  Also they have a small collection and I have nearly 200% more stuff.  So.. yes.  Should I stop playing with them?  Seems like your solution. 

 

Honestly, also, the T-70 is too hard to catch and block.  Which is an important way this game is balanced that people don't think about.  

 

 

You really shouldn't need to catch and block a T-70 to kill it- it still only rolls 2 defense die.  You just need to get it in enough arcs with modified shots- this isn't an IG-88 or Soontir stacking tokens.  Besides, if the T-70 is too good for your inexperienced opponents, play something bad- play some rookie pilot T-65s against them or something.

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We are definitely approaching a stronger tiering.  

 

 

For the first time, I have to agree that there is definitely a tier system in X-Wing. The dividing line is now whether the ship was designed before sloop/troll or after sloop/troll. The tiering is subtle in impact and doesn't necessarily mean that a pre-ship is better than a post-ship, but it does mean that certain ships no longer feel like they should and no longer have the same maneuver superiority or even equivalence that they should.

 

In particular, the idea of an X-Wing talon rolling out of arc of a TIE Interceptor makes me frown.

 

The problem is that FFG obviously did not anticipate the game getting as large as it did. While we can't expect them to be clairvoyant, I think that it is a pretty serious oversight that no one sat down with the maneuver templates for a half hour and was asked to make a list of how ships could be placed with them. Or, I could be wrong and FFG thinks that TIE Interceptors should have fewer complex maneuvers than X-Wings - who knows?

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I rather like it. The move is still new enough that the option can let a player out fox someone with it. Because they can TRoll two ways and 4k, the T70 is much less predictable than the 65.

I do hope to see a First Order interceptor or the like, or maybe a Defender pilot who can TRoll.

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I hate it.  Now had it played against me: 

 

Its really dumb.  Trying to block the new ships is nearly impossible with so many options.  

Also the amount of variance on the talon roll ending is partciularly dumb and forgiving.  All the segnors and kturns are exact. You fail it, face the wrong way with a stress.  VERY VERY unforgiving.  The talon roll on the other hand is particularly easy, AND with two direction options, in case your primary k-turn spot is blocked.  The k-turn is also easier to block cuz it comes from a head on engagement.  

 

 

STUPID!

The reason the Segnor's and the Talon Roll exist is to give some normal ships a way to cope with hypermobile turrets and stuff. For situations where if they'd K-turn they wouldn't be able to return fire at some child's sticky ice cream coated fat turret.

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We are definitely approaching a stronger tiering.

 

For the first time, I have to agree that there is definitely a tier system in X-Wing. The dividing line is now whether the ship was designed before sloop/troll or after sloop/troll. The tiering is subtle in impact and doesn't necessarily mean that a pre-ship is better than a post-ship, but it does mean that certain ships no longer feel like they should and no longer have the same maneuver superiority or even equivalence that they should.

 

In particular, the idea of an X-Wing talon rolling out of arc of a TIE Interceptor makes me frown.

 

The problem is that FFG obviously did not anticipate the game getting as large as it did. While we can't expect them to be clairvoyant, I think that it is a pretty serious oversight that no one sat down with the maneuver templates for a half hour and was asked to make a list of how ships could be placed with them. Or, I could be wrong and FFG thinks that TIE Interceptors should have fewer complex maneuvers than X-Wings - who knows?

There has long been a tiered system. Since wave 4 and 5 with the Phantom and Fat Turretwing, normal ships haven't been able to compete. 48 points of TIE Fighters or other 'normal' ships autoloses to a 48 point Super Corran, and 60 points of TIE Fighters or other 'normal' ships autoloses to a Fat Falcon/Super Dash.

But now that the neo-X-Wing gets a funky hard 3 Segnor's Loop/K-Turn barrel roll thing, THAT'S power creep?!

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