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Aenno

About game balance

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I don't have to, because a human being can easily traverse the distance in three seconds. This is why we use real life movement rates. The only time distance actually matters is to dodge explosions or in combats that take place over the range of 100-1000m. All I need to know is how fast my NPC runs and how fast my PC runs, and if they're closing in on each other or if one's trying to evade. Suddenly, I just have their relative speeds in comparison, and it's a simple subtraction of tempi or the distance between them as to how many rounds it takes to reach the person, if at all.

 

'course, you can needlessly overcomplicate stuff endlessly. You can assume the GM has to describe every bush and every tree in the forest, but then you're in a situation where you don't see the forest because of all the trees in the way.

Edited by DeathByGrotz

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I don't have to, because a human being can easily traverse the distance in three seconds. This is why we use real life movement rates. The only time distance actually matters is to dodge explosions or in combats that take place over the range of 500-1000m.

So youre basically admitting that you don't use the rules as written Also, your system is going to be screwed in any combat that takes place in a large area (football field sized?) with people starting at different positions and terrain that isn't all in a single straight line.

Like, per your example, you're abstracting combat into a flat line, which is fine, but isn't how the rules work and is a pretty large level of abstraction.

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I never said I was playing DH2e. I believe I've repeatedly voiced my considerably low opinion of it on these forums. Thing is, the moment you handle combat in a manner you and your players can relate to in terms of distances with RL knowledge and comparisons, you stop needing a map. If you go into the extreme abstract that has nothing to do with reality, like DH2e's movement system, you're either going to need to think in those terms suddenly, which you normally don't IRL, or find a way to fast-track the abstraction, usually by rounding up or down to speed things along.

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Keep in mind that the whole starting basis of this discussion was that the game tracks movement down to the single meter, and that in order to do justice to the various rules on movement speed you need to use a map. Your proposed system isn't actually doing that without house ruling that all combat takes place on a single line.

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Keep in mind that the whole starting basis of this discussion was that the game tracks movement down to the single meter, and that in order to do justice to the various rules on movement speed you need to use a map. Your proposed system isn't actually doing that without house ruling that all combat takes place on a single line.

I never said I was playing DH2e. I believe I've repeatedly voiced my considerably low opinion of it on these forums. Thing is, the moment you handle combat in a manner you and your players can relate to in terms of distances with RL knowledge and comparisons, you stop needing a map. If you go into the extreme abstract that has nothing to do with reality, like DH2e's movement system, you're either going to need to think in those terms suddenly, which you normally don't IRL, or find a way to fast-track the abstraction, usually by rounding up or down to speed things along.

The why the **** would you bother commenting on a discussion about the movement rules in dark heresy specifically?

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Tracking movement down to a single meter is pants on head retarded. It's unnecessary, unless you're considerably shorter than a single meter or combat rounds take a fraction of a second instead of six. I'm arguing against the general postulation you need maps for combat in RPGs to track distances reliably, which was stated.

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Tracking movement down to a single meter is pants on head retarded. It's unnecessary, unless you're considerably shorter than a single meter or combat rounds take a fraction of a second instead of six. I'm arguing against the general postulation you need maps for combat in RPGs to track distances reliably, which was stated.

Which you do need if you're tracking distances outside of a flat line with everything positioned on it.

And even with a flat line, if you have a party of 3 PCs versus around 4-6 NPCs, many of which may have different rates of movement, that's gonna be hard to just have everyone remember exactly where on the line everyone is.

Edited by Nimsim

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Tracking movement down to a single meter is pants on head retarded. It's unnecessary, unless you're considerably shorter than a single meter or combat rounds take a fraction of a second instead of six. I'm arguing against the general postulation you need maps for combat in RPGs to track distances reliably, which was stated.

Which you do need if you're tracking distances outside of a flat line with everything positioned on it.

 

Only if the game doesn't give you tools to abstract distances in the first place! (I'm basically agreeing with you, just raising a special case for the sake of completeness.  ;) )

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Hey guys remember when I said

 

 

How are you able to differentiate the movement speeds of an agility 3 versus agility 4 character each round the two of them move and do so in a consistent and non arbitrary manner?


The trick is to do it in an eyeballed, arbitrary manner.
 
Speaking from experience.

as a joke?

Totally wasn't a joke.

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I never said I was playing DH2e. I believe I've repeatedly voiced my considerably low opinion of it on these forums. 

 

Not trying to start anything here; I'm really just genuinely curious...  what motivates you to invest time on a forum for a game that you don't play?

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I still want to know how you keep track of those things without a map. Do you state everything to begin with and somehow remember it all, or do you just make up distances as you go? 

 

Well, yep. I don't see what is hard with it, in fact.

 

 

 

Keep in mind that the whole starting basis of this discussion was that the game tracks movement down to the single meter, and that in order to do justice to the various rules on movement speed you need to use a map

 

That or you use the rules and the numbers for what they are and you don't need the maps. 

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I still want to know how you keep track of those things without a map. Do you state everything to begin with and somehow remember it all, or do you just make up distances as you go? 

 

Well, yep. I don't see what is hard with it, in fact.

 

 

 

Keep in mind that the whole starting basis of this discussion was that the game tracks movement down to the single meter, and that in order to do justice to the various rules on movement speed you need to use a map

 

That or you use the rules and the numbers for what they are and you don't need the maps.

Please see the example I posted above for what I would like clarification on how you keep track of things.

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I told you I do it by memory in answer to what you asked.

And how do you handle distances once characters start moving in directions that aren't straight lines away or toward each other?

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You know that unless you're in a completely sterile environment with a 100% flat floor, a completely straight vector towards another point is impossible, right? Any combat system is an arbitrary abstraction (which is what makes CPS's post both unintentionally funny and deficient). Your level of abstraction and wether it's based on completely random numbers (like DH2's) or RL (which eliminates most of the problems in minutae and scale in urban combat situations) can differ, but ultimately, you do not need a map for any of it. You don't even get the exact distance on your map. You only get an approximate, unless your fight is in a completely empty, flat space with no obstacles and every fight on every planet you visit is in the same, consistant gravity.

 

You do not need a map, because you will never be 100% precise even with one. Your map is already an arbitrary abstraction. Wether it helps your players or not differs from group to group, and how well you and your players can visualise an environment. A lot of people I've played with don't need one. That does not mean their math is less correct than yours, because your initial abstraction already makes it imprecise by default, it means they pose the questions in a less needlessly complex manner which can be resolved more quickly.

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I think the real problem is how Dark Heresy uses rules that are sufficiently precise that a map is absolutely necessary for a 100% faithful implementation. It's just that any GM can say "frag that gak" and come up with their own way of dealing with these things. But that's certainly not thanks to the RAW, so perhaps we should ask ourselves if this level of detail is actually warranted if we don't wish to make maps mandatory.

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Here is an example I am using for my DH (Feral/Feudal) Campaign... (everything is in boxes/squares)

 

Movement is also reduced in my game when playing in Encounter Mode for all humans it is; 1, 2, 3, 4 Boxes

 

1 Half Move

2 Full Move

3 Charge (must end in an attack)

4 Run (-20 to hit with BS; offers "Combat Advantage")

 

The whole notion of individualized move speeds has been glossed over to fall more into line with game systems where all humans move the same rate.

 

That's my system in essence...

 

The red Xs represent "boxes" that can't be targeted by a ranged weapon; you'll notice that pistols and arquebus cant shoot a melee target - that's in keeping with the spirit of being "engaged in melee" - its how I balance things so players have to think rather than just go on cruise control LOL

 

blackpowder-gun-ranges.jpg

 

P.S. Blunderbuss as you can see was also house ruled - atm it can hit a 3x3 box area - behind that another 3x3 area (omitting 2 boxes - red Xs) - first area does full damage / read area does half...

 

Morbid

Edited by MorbidDon

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Back to Narrative Combat "Mode"

 

Drawing on paper like Football Xs and Os...

 

Depending on how your gaming - either in person or over the internet - you can always fall back on Xs and Os on a piece of paper - your main issue seemingly being - keeping track of where people are at...

 

Again no need for a grid or measurements - as you've defined them at the onset of combat.

 

Or you could opt to use some sort of online tool like; Roll20 (Free and Online) or http://www.rptools.net/(Free and I think you dont have to be online)

 

Otherwise I would say the mental gymnastics we're talking about herein requires lots of practice - I can do it myself because I have been doing it for years now waaaay before the onset of minis and grids - minis and grids have spoiled me to an extent - and videogames are like the worst as they dont exercie your imagination at all!

 

I would say to practice with a single friend - start with small manageable numbers like 1 friend vs 4 guys (that way its quick and you can increase the numbers are you get better at juggling all the info in your head)...

 

It about placement that matters;

 

I got 8 guys against you - 2 of which have really good positions that will yield them a +10% to BS against you - lets say out of the remaining 6 2 others are at -10% to BS for whatever reason I want to make up on the fly when you as a a character care to know why - otherwise it doesnt matter...

 

4 are at +/- 0% then...

 

All i need to know about my assets is 2 got bonuses and 2 got penalties = thats it (i can make up any reason then as to why)

If you want to change that "set" - then by your actions you either kill em or make em move for some reason - not it may be time to take a note "B" was forced to move down off of the fire escape / no longer has higher ground...

 

Its all about juggling numbers and positions in your head - that comes with practice I feel; correct me if I'm wrong any fellow GMs?

 

Morbid

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You know that unless you're in a completely sterile environment with a 100% flat floor, a completely straight vector towards another point is impossible, right? Any combat system is an arbitrary abstraction (which is what makes CPS's post both unintentionally funny and deficient). Your level of abstraction and wether it's based on completely random numbers (like DH2's) or RL (which eliminates most of the problems in minutae and scale in urban combat situations) can differ, but ultimately, you do not need a map for any of it. You don't even get the exact distance on your map. You only get an approximate, unless your fight is in a completely empty, flat space with no obstacles and every fight on every planet you visit is in the same, consistant gravity.

 

You do not need a map, because you will never be 100% precise even with one. Your map is already an arbitrary abstraction. Wether it helps your players or not differs from group to group, and how well you and your players can visualise an environment. A lot of people I've played with don't need one. That does not mean their math is less correct than yours, because your initial abstraction already makes it imprecise by default, it means they pose the questions in a less needlessly complex manner which can be resolved more quickly.

If you're using exact measurements down to the individual meter, you need a map, or you can assume everything is on a flat line. The system you're saying you're using is basically the range band one from edge of the empire or other games only you give the distances in meters even though you've admitted that tracking individual meters doesn't help anything.

So I'll sum it up. If you are tracking individual meters of movement, it is impossible to actually apply them to gameplay without a map (and even your flat line is in itself an abstracted map that you would need to use for having multiple groups moving around frequently independent of each other). Anyone who says they aren't bothering with a map are abstracting things to a point where it is no longer worthwhile to track individual meters. No one who says they don't need a map has shown otherwise that they're able to track individual meters without a map of some kind (unless all NPCs and players move in large blobs, and move very infrequently).

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Anyone play Numenera? The way range and distances in combat work is perfect for the game's combat (which isn't the focus of the game. What a concept!) in that anyone in Immediate range (same small room or something) is a possible melee target, Short range is anyone just outside that, but under like 50 feet. Long range is between 50 feet and 100 feet, with anything beyond that just listed in the actual distance. People can generally move a Short distance in a turn, IIRC. 

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I told you I do it by memory in answer to what you asked.

And how do you handle distances once characters start moving in directions that aren't straight lines away or toward each other?

 

 

Everything is straight lines, or nothing is. Whatever, it's no harder. I don't need maps, pencils and token, because I can already figure it in my head. Having paper with squares or whatev' won't make it better nor worse, unless you need because you prefer it that way (or the reverse).

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