Poor gamesmanship and other shinanigans.....

[JeromeK99 5]

stalling for time.. dealing from the bottom of a damage deck... both no-nos in my book. I have no problem with "playing by the rules" when using a range ruler. You declare the attempt, measure from closest points of the ships and if in range, complete the action. This is quite clear in the rules and is used at all levels of competitive play.

 

 

Jerome

[Echoseven 199]

 

 

• Using dice instead of shield tokens? - TWEET!! Foul! - incorrect game components, and against the competition rules

 

Not necessarily. The core rulebook states that, in the event a player finds himself short of tokens, he can use any suitable replacement. The rulebook suggests a coin or bead, but I would find it difficult to argue that a dice couldn't do the job. I could see it being ruled against, but it's not quite black and white.

 

Of course, I also find it difficult to believe that someone could really not have any shield tokens in his collection, but if he has none on his person at the even there's not much you can do.

 

The rules state use something like that for indicating damage when you've run out of damage cards. Each ship expansion comes with the correct number of shield tokens required. I find it very hard to believe someone wouldn't have enough tokens.

Plus if they are using dice, is it one die per token, or are they using the die to show the number of tokens. Either way, where are the original tokens?!? It's just causing confusion.

 

Yeah, I feel FFG has turned over the final say on what can be used to the TO when it comes to markers and components, so if they can be used or not is subjective.

And it's not a matter of this player not having enough components, its an intentional decision not to use them.

 

However, in this case it still relates to the time stalling the OP was talking about.  The dice are being used as one die per ship card with the die face indicating how many shields each ship has. It sounds kinda clever and maybe saves on having to bring tokens, but the effect for the opponent is that it's not as easy to tell by a glance across the table which ship has how many shields remaining, so now (unless you are very proficient at keeping track of your opponents damage) you have to participate in the game delay by asking each time, which ship has what remaining, or walk over to the other side of the table so you can see the tops of each die every time you want to check.  It now also takes extra time to account for damage as well because each time you deal damage instead of simply removing a token or marker, he gets to fumble with a die, turning it over and over, looking for the right number to face up. I've had situations too where this player "bumps" the die or drops it on the floor and then "doesn't remember" what number was face up so we have to spend extra time confirming which ship had what amount of damage... it all just comes off feeling like shenanigans.

 

Abusing the good will of other players and taking advantage of technicalities in the rules to manipulate the flow of the game to your advantage seems like it's supposed to be "expressly forbidden" under the Unsportsmanlike Conduct section of the tournament rules; but it also feels like the statements in that section are ultimately just suggestions subject to the TO's discretion.

The rules are our guide, but the buck stops with the TO, so what's a player to do but try and make the TO aware and get him or her to advocate against the behavior, right? 

[Rapture 499]

The anti-die stance is blowing things out of proportion. A lot of the complaints against using dice to track shields apply just as well to using cardboard tabs as they do using a die (e.g. opponent cheating and changing the face/amount, not being able to see how many are left with a half-second glance, disturbing the components and then not being able to reorganize them with 100% accuracy).

 

And the old favorite argument for putting something in X-Wing down, 'confusion,' is as flimsy here as it usually is. If an opposing player tells you that they are tracking each ship's shields using a die and you someone can't remember that the B-Wing car with a die showing two on top of it has two shields left, then I can't imagine how you are possible managing through the other aspects of a game of X-Wing.

 

I have never used dice other than the FFG attack/defense dice in a game of X-Wing, but, as using them to track shields is apparently not against the rules, I can't see any real problems with it.

[shotbyscott 1,147]

had another interesting one today.... after beating a guy he said I think your list is boring and i would never fly it.

[DR4CO 6,234]

had another interesting one today.... after beating a guy he said I think your list is boring and i would never fly it.

 

Just put him on the "try to play against" list and carry on with your day.

[Parravon 5,217]

had another interesting one today.... after beating a guy he said I think your list is boring and i would never fly it.

But at the end of the day, the "boring" list still beat him. It may have been boring, but it was clearly effective enough to do the job.

[shotbyscott 1,147]

 

had another interesting one today.... after beating a guy he said I think your list is boring and i would never fly it.

But at the end of the day, the "boring" list still beat him. It may have been boring, but it was clearly effective enough to do the job.

 

Made it to the final table and lost to a Deci/Phantom due to my own stupidity (tactical error)

 

[D00MSTALKER 1]

I had the unfortunate experience of encountering a unscrupulous player at a tournament this weekend.

 

I deployed an A-Wing at the max edge of range 1 as allowed on my side of the map. He placed a large base ship directly across also at the max edge of range 1. The first turn I move forward 3, he moved forward 1. The 2nd turn I move forward 5 and he choose the forward 3. When maneuvering his ship he moved the maneuver template backwards with his middle finger and exclaimed "oh it just fit". I let this slide. ( I have re-played this at home with careful maneuvering and it is almost a centimeter of overlap).

 

He attempted to shoot me with a twin laser turret at range 1, I informed him it wasn't the correct range.

 

He attempted to use a pilot skill to negate my pilot skill but he was supposed to do it at the beginning of combat not after combat had been resolved.

 

After the match the player acted like he was the greatest X-Wing player ever with all knowledge of the game. He started to criticize my strategy and insult my squadron.

 

It took all of my self control not to explode on this individual as I did not wish to make a scene at the local store hosting the tournament or create any hard feelings in the local X-Wing community. If I ever play this individual again I will not tolerate any of his shenanigans.

[ArbitraryNerd 1,009]

Played my first ever tournament (and first four matches, for that matter), and either played against people who took advantage of me not knowing certain rules or, possibly, didn't know the rules themselves.

 

Highlights were being told that you have to determine if you are decloaking or not before ANY maneuver dials are revealed (my mistake for not reading the rules better to call BS on that) and being told that criticals were cancelled before regular hits (I was 80% certain that I had read the opposite but, as a new player and new to the local community, didn't want to push my luck).

 

I don't think either situation cost me the game, though the first was close (I won by 1 point after a time out).

[VanorDM 11,599]

When maneuvering his ship he moved the maneuver template backwards with his middle finger and exclaimed "oh it just fit".

I'm confused... So he put the template in front of the ship, then picked the ship up, went to move it to the end, but slide the template backwards before setting the ship down at the far end?

If so then that's blatant cheating, and you're not doing anyone who plays there a favor by letting him get away with it. Because he'll keep doing it.

There is never an excuse for the template to move until the ship is on the table and seated in front of the template.

 

He attempted to shoot me with a twin laser turret at range 1

That could be an innocent mistake, but considering the other stuff you said I doubt it.

 

He attempted to use a pilot skill to negate my pilot skill

So he wanted to retroactively go back and change the PS after the attack had been resolved? Technically that's a missed opportunity but not one that I expect anyone would allow the other person to fix, but again that would be an option if you so wanted.

The other one reminds me of a tournament I was at... the TO and I got into a bit of a debate about stacking actions with PtL. He apparently either hadn't read the FAQ or didn't understand it, because he clearly didn't know how it worked.

[VanorDM 11,599]

Highlights were being told that you have to determine if you are decloaking or not before ANY maneuver dials are revealed

You do decloak before any dials are revealed. That was something that changed as of the most recent, or perhaps even 2nd most recent FAQ.

 

This card should read: At the start of the Activation phase, after players have resolved all other abilities that trigger at the start of the Activation phase, each ship may spend a cloak token to decloak

and being told that criticals were cancelled before regular hits

There is one case where this is true. If they are using an Autoblaster Cannon, then you do in fact cancel <crit> before <hit> results.

But normally you're right, <hits> have to be canceled before <crits> can be.

Edited September 14, 2015 by VanorDM

[D00MSTALKER 1]

 

When maneuvering his ship he moved the maneuver template backwards with his middle finger and exclaimed "oh it just fit".

I'm confused... So he put the template in front of the ship, then picked the ship up, went to move it to the end, but slide the template backwards before setting the ship down at the far end?

If so then that's blatant cheating, and you're not doing anyone who plays there a favor by letting him get away with it. Because he'll keep doing it.

There is never an excuse for the template to move until the ship is on the table and seated in front of the template.

 

He attempted to shoot me with a twin laser turret at range 1

That could be an innocent mistake, but considering the other stuff you said I doubt it.

 

He attempted to use a pilot skill to negate my pilot skill

So he wanted to retroactively go back and change the PS after the attack had been resolved? Technically that's a missed opportunity but not one that I expect anyone would allow the other person to fix, but again that would be an option if you so wanted.

The other one reminds me of a tournament I was at... the TO and I got into a bit of a debate about stacking actions with PtL. He apparently either hadn't read the FAQ or didn't understand it, because he clearly didn't know how it worked.

 

Your first question, he picked up his large sized ship and sat it down on the maneuver template with part of the maneuver template under his ship template then proceeded to scoot his large ship forward and the maneuver template backwards until it just fit.

 

I also believe the weapons range could be an honest mistake which I make plenty of. The only reason I even mentioned it was the way he was behaving acting like he was the final authority on all rules X-Wing (which he either isn't or chooses to disregard).

 

The final point was a missed opportunity that I did not allow him to correct.

[Parravon 5,217]

I had the unfortunate experience of encountering a unscrupulous player at a tournament this weekend.

 

I deployed an A-Wing at the max edge of range 1 as allowed on my side of the map. He placed a large base ship directly across also at the max edge of range 1. The first turn I move forward 3, he moved forward 1. The 2nd turn I move forward 5 and he choose the forward 3. When maneuvering his ship he moved the maneuver template backwards with his middle finger and exclaimed "oh it just fit". I let this slide. ( I have re-played this at home with careful maneuvering and it is almost a centimeter of overlap).

 

He attempted to shoot me with a twin laser turret at range 1, I informed him it wasn't the correct range.

 

He attempted to use a pilot skill to negate my pilot skill but he was supposed to do it at the beginning of combat not after combat had been resolved.

 

After the match the player acted like he was the greatest X-Wing player ever with all knowledge of the game. He started to criticize my strategy and insult my squadron.

 

It took all of my self control not to explode on this individual as I did not wish to make a scene at the local store hosting the tournament or create any hard feelings in the local X-Wing community. If I ever play this individual again I will not tolerate any of his shenanigans.

You'll always find dodgy players at any tournament. Sometimes it can be legitimately put down to inexperience, but sometimes it's more unscrupulous than that. If something doesn't sound quite right, feel free to get the other player to show you in the rulebook where it is that says he can do whatever dodgy trick he's trying to do. Or feel free to make him wait while you check it for yourself. You should never feel like you're under duress when you want to look something up in the rulebook or FAQ.

 

I've seen some similar maneuver template crap before. I played a guy that squinted all the time and said his eyesight wasn't too good. He didn't wear glasses though. And when he moved a ship, he would put the template down in front and then quickly pick up the ship and put it at the other end. But at no stage did the ship come into contact with the template. There would have been a 5mm gap at the pick up and again at the placement. When I pointed it out, he just squinted at me and said "did I miss it?". Yes, buddy, every damned time!

 

The hardest thing to remember in this game is the plethora of abilities from pilots and upgrades and their timing windows. I've been playing for a couple of years and I'm pretty good with the rules, but I still forget abilities and upgrades during the game. It's usually a missed opportunity, but I still kick myself when I forget it.

[ted1138 21]

What large base ship can take a TLT? I thought only HWK's, K's and Y's could take them?

[shotbyscott 1,147]

What large base ship can take a TLT? I thought only HWK's, K's and Y's could take them?

I was just thinking the same thing

[ParaGoomba Slayer 3,180]

Hey guys,

I don't knownif this is the folder for this topic however it is something I would like to bring up. Like all games that have a highly competitive component, I have started to see some very poor gamesmanship in my local X wing tournament circuit. There is always one right...

What I am talking about isn't so much a behaviour thing. I am not talking about someone trash talking or flipping tables. I am talking about things that directly effect game outcomes. Lately we have been seeing one player in particular pulling some very shady moves while at tournaments.

For example: slow playing, taking up to 5 minutes per dial. Drawing Crit cards from the bottom of you damage deck, purposely checking for a target lock on a ship that is so obviously far away, just so you can get a rough idea of the range of two closer ships in order to make a boost decision.

To me, this is cheating. It is so far out of the spirit of competition it isn't funny. IMO there is a big difference between slow playing in this way and slowing the pace of the game a little, taking a few deep breaths in order to make smart and purposeful dial choices.

Do you guys experience this in your own tournament scene?

Taking 5 minutes per dial is slow playing even during the most crucial of turns.

Have the TO check his deck and have it shuffled. If he refuses to shuffle more and/or stop drawing from the bottom and gets angry, press the issue further with the TO. This will stop the issue and also possibly put him on tilt which you can use to crush him. Remember, any reasonable person wouldn't get on tilt for having the TO called on him, your opponent is the one putting himself on tilt.

The TL thing is legal. Legalized cheating haha. Personally I'm of the opinion that if you declare a TL or boost or decloak or whatever and you don't have it, you should simply miss out on your action. But those aren't the rules, he's allowed to TL with obviously out of range ships to check range.

[D00MSTALKER 1]

 

What large base ship can take a TLT? I thought only HWK's, K's and Y's could take them?

I was just thinking the same thing

 

I apologize if I mislead anyone into thinking the TLT was on his large ship. I was just talking about another instance in the same match. The player fielded more than 1 ship as this was a 100 point tournament.

[WGNF911 826]

 

The TL thing is legal. Legalized cheating haha. Personally I'm of the opinion that if you declare a TL or boost or decloak or whatever and you don't have it, you should simply miss out on your action. But those aren't the rules, he's allowed to TL with obviously out of range ships to check range.

 

I like that idea.  Once you measure for an action, you're committed.  If you can't do it, you loose it.

[VanorDM 11,599]

Once you measure for an action, you're committed.  If you can't do it, you loose it.

You are to a point committed already. If you declare a barrel roll, boost, or even TL you are committed to performing that action if you are able to.

But making someone lose their action if they can't complete it, is the kind of bad game design you see in GW games.

[WGNF911 826]

 

You are to a point committed already. If you declare a barrel roll, boost, or even TL you are committed to performing that action if you are able to.

But making someone lose their action if they can't complete it, is the kind of bad game design you see in GW games.

 

Very good point VanorDM.  Just think of the times you seen someone "try" a TL, measure for it though it's obviously out of range, then pick a boost to get themselves in range for the attack?  I know it happens because I have taken advantage of that rule myself.  It's just gaming the game, a rule change would have the effect of preventing some of that and I wouldn't miss having that capability.  I haven't played any of the big GW games so I can't really relate.

[Parravon 5,217]

 

 

You are to a point committed already. If you declare a barrel roll, boost, or even TL you are committed to performing that action if you are able to.

But making someone lose their action if they can't complete it, is the kind of bad game design you see in GW games.

 

Very good point VanorDM.  Just think of the times you seen someone "try" a TL, measure for it though it's obviously out of range, then pick a boost to get themselves in range for the attack?  I know it happens because I have taken advantage of that rule myself.  It's just gaming the game, a rule change would have the effect of preventing some of that and I wouldn't miss having that capability.  I haven't played any of the big GW games so I can't really relate.

 

I've played a few GW games where pre-measuring was a no-no. You would declare you were going to shoot at a unit, and if was out of range, then tough luck - you had your chance so the shot was wasted. It seemed so bizarre that 40,000 years in the "future" they somehow couldn't come up with some kind of adequate range estimation. 

Edited September 22, 2015 by Parravon

[WWHSD 9,273]

Just think of the times you seen someone "try" a TL, measure for it though it's obviously out of range, then pick a boost to get themselves in range for the attack? 

 

I don't know that I've ever seen that. I've never seen anyone try to target lock anything that was more than a couple of inches out of range, which isn't at all "obviously" out of range to me.

[Parravon 5,217]

 

Just think of the times you seen someone "try" a TL, measure for it though it's obviously out of range, then pick a boost to get themselves in range for the attack? 

 

I don't know that I've ever seen that. I've never seen anyone try to target lock anything that was more than a couple of inches out of range, which isn't at all "obviously" out of range to me.

 

Oh, they're out there, the sneaky little @#%&s. You've just got to check under the occasional rock.

[VanorDM 11,599]

It seemed so bizarre that 40,000 years in the "future" they somehow couldn't come up with some kind of adequate range estimation. 

Yeah, it always bugged me that in 40k, space marines with all this advanced tech lack a basic laser range finder.

[Parravon 5,217]

Or even an optical rangefinder. WTF?!? But that's GW for you.