Poor gamesmanship and other shinanigans.....

[TheArtfulDodger 9]

Hey guys,

I don't knownif this is the folder for this topic however it is something I would like to bring up. Like all games that have a highly competitive component, I have started to see some very poor gamesmanship in my local X wing tournament circuit. There is always one right...

What I am talking about isn't so much a behaviour thing. I am not talking about someone trash talking or flipping tables. I am talking about things that directly effect game outcomes. Lately we have been seeing one player in particular pulling some very shady moves while at tournaments.

For example: slow playing, taking up to 5 minutes per dial. Drawing Crit cards from the bottom of you damage deck, purposely checking for a target lock on a ship that is so obviously far away, just so you can get a rough idea of the range of two closer ships in order to make a boost decision.

To me, this is cheating. It is so far out of the spirit of competition it isn't funny. IMO there is a big difference between slow playing in this way and slowing the pace of the game a little, taking a few deep breaths in order to make smart and purposeful dial choices.

Do you guys experience this in your own tournament scene?

[Parravon 5,217]

Yeah, sounds like a pathetic excuse for trying to win at all costs.

 

Taking 5 minutes per dial is obvious stalling. And a TO should jump on that. It doesn't take 5 minutes to figure your options for each ship. When a tournament round lasts 75 minutes and this guy is taking 10-15 minutes just to plan, it's pretty obvious he knows his weak list can't last the duration.

 

Although there's nothing in the rules about dealing from the bottom of the damage deck, but I think it's a universally accepted practice that you deal from the top, and dealing from the bottom makes me wonder if the deck has been loaded in some fashion. There's no way I would allow it at all.

 

The checking ranges while "checking for a target lock" is a little trickier to deal with. The Range Ruler is only a foot long and if he says he's checking for a target lock on a ship that's 18" to 2' away, then you should call him on it. In the FAQ under Competitive Play it says:

When acquiring a target lock, a player must first declare the intended target. Then, he measures range to the declared target to see if the target is within legal range. If the target is in range, the ship performing the action must acquire a target lock on the target. If the target is not in range, the player may declare a different target, or he may declare a different action.

While he's within the bounds of this rule, he's clearly using it to gain more knowledge. Which may or may not help as you can sweep the ruler during the Combat Phase.

Measuring Range

When a ship becomes the active ship during the combat phase, the active player can measure range from the active ship to any enemy ships before declaring one as its target.

 

Another one to look out for is the simultaneous activation of all ships with the same PS. That is, moving them all together, then going back and assigning actions. It's quite commonly seen with a Swarm, and it's against the rules. The player will often say it saves time, but I don't think it saves that much. It's one ship at a time - end of story.

 

Cheating by definition needs a black and white rule to be broken, and these examples are going to be arguable, and in the end are going to be down to the TO's discretion. But they all stink of desperate measures being made by someone who can't win by rightful means.

Edited September 6, 2015 by Parravon

[godofcheese 456]

Sounds very dodgy.

 

Slow play can and should be called, ask the TO to monitor the game. Sometimes planning does take a long time (a lot of ships all of which have some tough choices), but I've seen a player take take 3 full minutes to place a falcon dial when the only move that would keep him on the board was a hard 1 left.

 

Drawing crits from the bottom of the deck is instant alarm bells for me. Some questions though, does he draw all damage from the bottom of the deck, or does he draw facedown from the top, and faceup from the bottom? also; standard practise in all area's I've played in is for players to present their deck to their opponent for cutting after it has been openly shuffled at the table. Does he do this? If not, then a TO insisting that this happens before every round will immediately eliminate this as a problem.

[TheArtfulDodger 9]

It is very much win at all costs.

What worries me is that we have a relatively smallin X wing community with around 50 competitive players in the state. (I'm in Australia) this isn't purely a bad behaviour thing. It is having a direct impact on game outcomes.

it's a bad smell that will follow players doing this stuff and we are all talking about it in our respective circles.

I tell you what tho, I never see anyone play so fast when it suits him

[StevenO 2,996]

...

For example: slow playing, taking up to 5 minutes per dial. Drawing Crit cards from the bottom of you damage deck, purposely checking for a target lock on a ship that is so obviously far away, just so you can get a rough idea of the range of two closer ships in order to make a boost decision.

...

 

Taking 5 minutes per dial is almost certainly stalling which you should call the TO for.  The only reason to stall is to run out a clock in some timed event.

 

Does it state that cards need to be drawn from the top of the Deck?  Assuming he is consistent and that his deck is accurate and properly randomized this shouldn't be a problem.  Just note that YOU have the right to inspect the cards in his deck to make sure it is complete and unmarked and you also have the option to shuffle his deck and cut it as well.

 

The rules say you can measure to check for a lock.  It doesn't say anything about that being close.  It may not be popular around here but I think FFG should let up on measuring although it still needs to avoid crossing into what could be considered stalling.

[Parravon 5,217]

Sounds very dodgy.

 

Slow play can and should be called, ask the TO to monitor the game. Sometimes planning does take a long time (a lot of ships all of which have some tough choices), but I've seen a player take take 3 full minutes to place a falcon dial when the only move that would keep him on the board was a hard 1 left.

 

Drawing crits from the bottom of the deck is instant alarm bells for me. Some questions though, does he draw all damage from the bottom of the deck, or does he draw facedown from the top, and faceup from the bottom? also; standard practise in all area's I've played in is for players to present their deck to their opponent for cutting after it has been openly shuffled at the table. Does he do this? If not, then a TO insisting that this happens before every round will immediately eliminate this as a problem.

Try dealing from the bottom of the deck in a poker game and see how long you last. This has got to be the dodgiest practice I've ever heard of in X-wing.

[Funkleton 2,510]

[godofcheese 456]

It is very much win at all costs.

What worries me is that we have a relatively smallin X wing community with around 50 competitive players in the state. (I'm in Australia) this isn't purely a bad behaviour thing. It is having a direct impact on game outcomes.

it's a bad smell that will follow players doing this stuff and we are all talking about it in our respective circles.

I tell you what tho, I never see anyone play so fast when it suits him

 

Where in Aus?

[Hobojebus 11,341]

Yeah sounds like a WaaC alright, only way to deal with someone like that is to call them out on it every time, get the TO over when he pulls these stunts and if he does not get the message ask as a final resort that he be banned from competitive events.

[Jehan Menasis 1,562]

FFG should release a ruler without any range markings, just for acquiring Target Locks purposes.

I've one for my local group, and suddenly, everyone is much more "proficient" about when to declare target locks or not.

Missed golden opportunity with the new Force Awakens core set...

[Smuggler 556]

I seem to recall some one mailing FFG about the meassuring for TL on targets obviously way out of range. The answere come back saying it was fine. So apparently using the excuse of a TL to get additional information if fine with FFG.

[WGNF911 826]

I'm with everyone else on this.  That player is crushing the fun for himself and everyone else.  Tell him to relax, it's not that important.

 

On the timing issue, to fix it in tournament play, there could always be a timed planning phase.  Some of the most fun I've had playing tabletops is when there is a time limit during some phase of a turn.  It's a lot of fun when you or your opponent choose the wrong option because you were pressed for time.  Or, when you're halfway through your time, you suddenly realize your flawless plan for that turn is full of holes and you have to redo it on the fly.  What would y'all say for X-Wing; 2 or 3 minutes?  If you've got 75 minutes and 10% of that is taken up in planning, that is a bit dull.  I always try to set dials within a minute but that's me.  Having a time limit in tourneys would really show who has some skills.  

[DailyRich 3,346]

I seem to recall some one mailing FFG about the meassuring for TL on targets obviously way out of range. The answere come back saying it was fine. So apparently using the excuse of a TL to get additional information if fine with FFG.

 

No, it's just that where do you start declaring something as "obviously way out of range"?  Is one range increment beyond the ruler too far?  Two range increments?  And how do you tell without actually putting the range ruler down?  Meaning you're now checking range to check range to target lock, which is ridiculous.  It might look obvious, but you can't create rules based on the eyeball test, because everybody's got different eyes.

[Parravon 5,217]

Like I said, if you're "checking" a ship that's nearly two feet away, it's pretty obvious that it would be out of range.

Unfortunately, this is something that is so easily abused by the dodgy player. It doesn't take many games before you can become reasonably proficient at estimating whether something is within target lock range or not.

Personally, I wouldn't be too upset by someone trying to pre-measure in this manner. I can't see it making a big difference to their plan, let alone mine.

[Smuggler 556]

 

I seem to recall some one mailing FFG about the meassuring for TL on targets obviously way out of range. The answere come back saying it was fine. So apparently using the excuse of a TL to get additional information if fine with FFG.

 

No, it's just that where do you start declaring something as "obviously way out of range"?  Is one range increment beyond the ruler too far?  Two range increments?  And how do you tell without actually putting the range ruler down?  Meaning you're now checking range to check range to target lock, which is ridiculous.  It might look obvious, but you can't create rules based on the eyeball test, because everybody's got different eyes.

 

Unfortionaly I can not find the thread in question, but as I remeber it, the question was formulated like trying to TL a ship on the opposite end of the board, so very very obviously out of range. Still FFG answered that it was ok to do so.

[shotbyscott 1,147]

slow play sux..... but i ones had the opposite. the guy was so fast and rushing me so much it put me under a lot of pressure and I made simple mistakes.

some other epic experiences are
During an epic game a player on my side decided he didn't like the mission pack up his stuff and said .... I would much rather lose then win a game like this.

The guy who never concentrates on the game and is constantly playing something else on his phone. "dude its your turn again!" "Umm Yeaaa ok what am I supposed to be doing" etc etc

The person who loses the first ship in an epic game and "crys OHHHHH we have lost, its all over now" when they are surrounded by about 400points of kick ass ships 

[TheArtfulDodger 9]

Imagine a new player turning up to his first tournament to be thrown I to a shark tank against a guy like this....

That is what angers me the most. Sure we all like to win, but if you are pulling this kind of **** rather than truely out playing the guy you are against, is that really that satisfying?

[Echoseven 199]

When I first read your post, I thought for sure you were local to my area here in the US; we have a player just like that here!

Totally abuses the planning phase to stall for time (have seen him take up to 8 min per dial to plan moves for 4 of the exact same type ship, flying formation). Usually takes net lists or builds that favor high hull and shield, so running the clock out is always to his advantage. Measures for target lock every turn when its obvious he is out of range, then moves a second ship in formation to a position even further away than the first ship and measures for target lock again to the same target that was too far last time. After the target lock fails, spends additional 1-2 minutes "debating" what action he should take instead, when its a two action ship. Have not ever noticed the pulling from the bottom of the damage deck, but he does favor proxy tokens, like dice on ship cards instead of shields tokens, and only numbering duplicate ships on the board, but not the corresponding cards, which further confuses and frustrates when playing against him.

Didn't realize this was a cross continental phenomenon, but I totally feel your pain.

We have players here who refuse to play against this character because it's so frustrating and he has been banned from at least one event I know of.

I have been tolerant the past few times, but no more, the next time I set up against this player, I am going to call him out on his tactics at the beginning of the match, not in a rude way, but in a transparent and direct manner, and have a judge monitor if possible because loosing to the time clock against cheap play style is a very negative experience.  I would recommend you try the same because this is obviously an intentional way of playing vs a new or thoughtful player just trying to make important decisions.

Thanks for sharing OP; I'm not happy to hear you have dealt with this same problem, but its validating to know there are others out there who have faced this and are frustrated. 

Edited September 9, 2015 by Echoseven

[Dr Zoidberg 3,200]

I will never understand people who cheat and show poor gamesmanship when it comes to this past time.

 

At the end of the day, it is grown adults pushing toy space ships around on a mat.  If you and your opponent are not having fun, then you're doing it wrong.

[Parravon 5,217]

When I first read your post, I thought for sure you were local to my area here in the US; we have a player just like that here!

Totally abuses the planning phase to stall for time (have seen him take up to 8 min per dial to plan moves for 4 of the exact same type ship, flying formation). Usually takes net lists or builds that favor high hull and shield, so running the clock out is always to his advantage. Measures for target lock every turn when its obvious he is out of range, then moves a second ship in formation to a position even further away than the first ship and measures for target lock again to the same target that was too far last time. After the target lock fails, spends additional 1-2 minutes "debating" what action he should take instead, when its a two action ship. Have not ever noticed the pulling from the bottom of the damage deck, but he does favor proxy tokens, like dice on ship cards instead of shields tokens, and only numbering duplicate ships on the board, but not the corresponding cards, which further confuses and frustrates when playing against him.

Didn't realize this was a cross continental phenomenon, but I totally feel your pain.

We have players here who refuse to play against this character because it's so frustrating and he has been banned from at least one event I know of.

I have been tolerant the past few times, but no more, the next time I set up against this player, I am going to call him out on his tactics at the beginning of the match, not in a rude way, but in a transparent and direct manner, and have a judge monitor if possible because loosing to the time clock against cheap play style is a very negative experience.  I would recommend you try the same because this is obviously an intentional way of playing vs a new or thoughtful player just trying to make important decisions.

Thanks for sharing OP; I'm not happy to hear you have dealt with this same problem, but its validating to know there are others out there who have faced this and are frustrated. 

OK, where do we blow the whistle here?

 

• Up to 8 minutes to plan? - TWEET!! Foul! - intentional stalling, and against the competition rules
• Measuring a second, obviously out of range target lock? - TWEET!! Foul! - intentional stalling, and against the competition rules
• Spending a couple more minutes "debating" his only other action option?  - TWEET!! Foul! - intentional stalling, and against the competition rules
• Using dice instead of shield tokens? - TWEET!! Foul! - incorrect game components, and against the competition rules
• Numbering ships, but not their corresponding ship card? - TWEET!! Foul! - insufficient game components in use, and against the competition rules

 

How many fouls does a player in any other game (football, basketball, etc.) have to commit before he's ejected from the game? I just wish FFG would tighten up a little and make some of these stalling tactics go away by making hard and fast rulings, instead of leaving it up to the TO's discretion.

Edited September 9, 2015 by Parravon

[DR4CO 6,234]

• Using dice instead of shield tokens? - TWEET!! Foul! - incorrect game components, and against the competition rules

 

Not necessarily. The core rulebook states that, in the event a player finds himself short of tokens, he can use any suitable replacement. The rulebook suggests a coin or bead, but I would find it difficult to argue that a dice couldn't do the job. I could see it being ruled against, but it's not quite black and white.

 

Of course, I also find it difficult to believe that someone could really not have any shield tokens in his collection, but if he has none on his person at the even there's not much you can do.

[headache62 130]

• Using dice instead of shield tokens? - TWEET!! Foul! - incorrect game components, and against the competition rules

 

Not necessarily. The core rulebook states that, in the event a player finds himself short of tokens, he can use any suitable replacement. The rulebook suggests a coin or bead, but I would find it difficult to argue that a dice couldn't do the job. I could see it being ruled against, but it's not quite black and white.

 

Of course, I also find it difficult to believe that someone could really not have any shield tokens in his collection, but if he has none on his person at the even there's not much you can do.

I'd offer to share - don't most players have more then enough?

[Parravon 5,217]

 

• Using dice instead of shield tokens? - TWEET!! Foul! - incorrect game components, and against the competition rules

 

Not necessarily. The core rulebook states that, in the event a player finds himself short of tokens, he can use any suitable replacement. The rulebook suggests a coin or bead, but I would find it difficult to argue that a dice couldn't do the job. I could see it being ruled against, but it's not quite black and white.

 

Of course, I also find it difficult to believe that someone could really not have any shield tokens in his collection, but if he has none on his person at the even there's not much you can do.

 

The rules state use something like that for indicating damage when you've run out of damage cards. Each ship expansion comes with the correct number of shield tokens required. I find it very hard to believe someone wouldn't have enough tokens.

Plus if they are using dice, is it one die per token, or are they using the die to show the number of tokens. Either way, where are the original tokens?!? It's just causing confusion.

[DR4CO 6,234]

 

 

• Using dice instead of shield tokens? - TWEET!! Foul! - incorrect game components, and against the competition rules

 

Not necessarily. The core rulebook states that, in the event a player finds himself short of tokens, he can use any suitable replacement. The rulebook suggests a coin or bead, but I would find it difficult to argue that a dice couldn't do the job. I could see it being ruled against, but it's not quite black and white.

 

Of course, I also find it difficult to believe that someone could really not have any shield tokens in his collection, but if he has none on his person at the even there's not much you can do.

 

The rules state use something like that for indicating damage when you've run out of damage cards. Each ship expansion comes with the correct number of shield tokens required. I find it very hard to believe someone wouldn't have enough tokens.

Plus if they are using dice, is it one die per token, or are they using the die to show the number of tokens. Either way, where are the original tokens?!? It's just causing confusion.

 

I would find it hard to believe, too, but the rulebook does state on page 21 (or at least, it does in the "old" one; I don't have a TFA one on me to look at, I'm afraid) that you can use any suitable replacement if you run out of tokens. So long as both players are clear on how the die or dice is being used it would fit the bill.

 

As for where the original tokens are: ask him, I suppose. Like I said, I would find it hard believe he truly has none and think he's simply too lazy to get them. But unfortunately you can't really call him up on it.

 

I'd offer to share - don't most players have more then enough?

 

Most players have more than enough, but not necessarily with them. I know a lot of players, myself included, who only bring what they need for their squad to an event, maybe with a couple of spares, as it really cuts down on how much you have to cart around between rounds.

[Tvboy 3,529]

Measuring for a target lock that is "obviously" out of range is not cheating and is in fact a legitimate strategic tool that FFG has explicitly given us, because what's obvious to you may not be obvious to someone else. What is against the rules is declaring a target lock to an enemy ship and then measuring range to other things that are not that ship, like to an  asteroid or to a friendly ship or to an enemy ship within range 3.

 

Taking 5 minutes per dial to decide a maneuver is slow play and should be dealt with by informing the player they are taking too long with their dials, then informing the TO, who may have to stick around and enforce a faster pace of play for a little bit.

 

Dealing crits off the bottom of the damage deck is blatant cheating. Again tell your TO what is happening and they should put a stop to it.