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karaokelove

Cybernetics? No thanks!

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Yes, the ECRB is not clear on this at all. I have not looked at LoNH yet. 

 

So I take it your characters has cybernetics. Are they invisible to the naked eye? Easily covered up? or indistinguishable from the normal body?

 

If you answered yes to any of these questions, then for the most you should never have an ion weapon fired at you at the start of combat. If your implants can be  seen only after your clothing/robe has been moved away, in the case of an arm, then I could maybe see that after a few rounds, someone might notice that you have implants and may fire an ion gun your way. 

 

If you are not an overly flashy cyborg, but in every fight you face off with these types of weapons, it is your GM that is broken, not the system. It could be better though. I would have a serious talk with your GM if this is the case. 

 

I had a player a while back take a nasty crit and it reduced his Intel by 1 permanently. It went from 2 to 1. I allowed him to get a micro brain implant thing that brought his intel back up to 2 for something like 10,000. No one would ever be able to tell he has this without a CT Scan or something similar, as it is in inside his skull. Another player was all worried about this because he was afraid I would start using ion weapons against him. I was just like WTF man? Are you serious? We have only been gaming together for 8 months, and you think I would pull something like that? I was given the answer that most GMs would...Needless to say I was appalled and mortified! I have never done that to him nor would I. The ability to buy a book and "read" it does, not automatically grant the ability to Game Master.

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From a layman perspective, the average person - in an adversarial role, that is - is not going to be carrying around an ion blaster to shoot some random foe. If they were specifically hunting droids, or known cyborgs, then that is another story. So, if I'm a cybernetically enhanced badass that is being hunted by a bounty hunter then, yes, i suspect i will get blasted by ions. If my cybernetic badass attacks some stormtroopers there is no reason to have then carry ion blasters. Same goes for random swoop gangers and other unsavoury types. Now in term of Ganks, the average person will have no idea abput their society and thus, if deciding to pick a fight with one, won't have an ion blaster.

As for your big bad evil guy, why are you even building him in a way that you need to worry about specific cybernetic enhancements? Hell, adversary goes a LONG way to alleviate any potential setback the players could ion him with. A despair result, while not guaranteed, alters the scene. Not only can it be blasting a panel to lock a door, it could be redundant cybernetic systems rebooting or shielded systems impervious to the effect.

And if that doesn't work, remember two things that apply: "always two, there are" and "there's always a bigger fish". Don't see a big villian biting it as a door closing, but instead a hangar airlock being opened.

Now back to being a player for a minute, imagine the fun of having a big bad evil guy (BBEG) take out your weapons and systems and you have to think and be creative about beating him. Defeating a superior foe while being hobbled, overcoming the odds, and being basically from the place where DARE suvives, taking the future in your hand? Sounds pretty badass. Whining that your mechanical legs or arms dont work. Decidedly not badass. Be a badass. Bite your foes if your cybernetic limbs stop working.

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So as far as enemies not knowing about cybernetics, that makes sense for cyborgs, but what about droids? Enemies will know to target them with ion, so it once again becomes important to know if they need to crit or make a called shot to target a cybernetic upgrade (or if they can even discern that a droid has a cybernetic upgrade, since they're already completely cybernetic). It also seems weird that a droid that already has mechanical legs can get hit with ion and only take stun damage, but if they take the cybernetic legs upgrade, suddenly their legs shut down if hit with ion, in addition to the stun damage. From an RP perspective, that's pretty weird.

Edited by karaokelove

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I've always read the rule as it states is in regards to the attachment taking the hit, so it calls for an aimed shot for cybernetics. Which in reality given that with an aimed shot or 3A/1T you can wing an organic being and disable "cripple" a limb seems about right for my tastes.

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That's kind of cool. So, if my dude was all cybered up good, I'd be running and hiding whenever I saw an opponent pull out an ion weapon. I'd have kind of a phobia of ion weapons. And that would be part of my character!

 

Unsurprisingly, Ganks are called out in Lords of Nal Hutta as being particularly averse to ion weaponry!

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I've always read the rule as it states is in regards to the attachment taking the hit, so it calls for an aimed shot for cybernetics. Which in reality given that with an aimed shot or 3A/1T you can wing an organic being and disable "cripple" a limb seems about right for my tastes.

 

There you go—proper use of Advantage and Triumph right there!

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As far as droids go, there are two ways of looking at it:

What makes more sense? Carrying two weapons, one of which is only good for one kind of foe, or just carrying one weapon for every kind of foe? Again, it boils down ro reasoning: does the adversary have a reason to disable a droid, or is he going for a TPK? If the latter, why not just use a lethal weapon? And in the post-Clone Wars era, many would be more inclined to go lethal on a droid anyway.

Also, groups are allowed to treat equipment differently for droids. So the cybernetics your Friendly Neighborhood Gank use are after-market upgrades on a droid, and he can treat them as just another part of himself.

Edited by Blackbird888

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Thanks everyone for helping me sort this out. Seeing the disconnect, I can absolutely understand why someone would think I was just trying to make a min-maxed unstoppable terminator. If the system works as has been explained in these forums, then it's a reasonable system, though I'm still confused about a few things. I'll have to talk with my GM to see how he interprets things.

 

That said, it would be nice to be able to question the rules in the forums without immediately being labeled a mechanics-driven min-maxer, which in this case occurred as early as post #7...

 

Is it the general consensus that by "if hit", the book is referring to the implant, and not the character, implying a called shot or Blast characteristic is necessary?

Edited by karaokelove

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I would recommend just asking the question then and providing some back detail into it. I am still not quite sure if you are the player or the GM. If your GM is on here and you don't want to offend them...well, they should never be offended for someone going to the forums and asking for help/clarity. Unless it is during the game...I know I have had that happen to me. And, no I am not joking either. I pretty much told him where he could stick his phone, and told him he could leave... anyway I digress.

 

Dude/dudette, if you have a question, just ask it. 

 

Like hey, I am playing a cyborg, but I keep getting railed by ion weapons, and my character is all but useless, can anyone help explain this to me!? How does this work, according to book/page # it says "X", but then on page# it says "Y", can someone explain this. 

 

Instead of question/complaining/question/complaining...  I am not being mean here, but you say you don't want people jumping on for for min/maxing, well people can only use what you provide them. 

 

You also say that droids have it worse, and then say that that are severely punished...

 

I don't think you understand the rules quite right. Go back and read the ion gun description in the Edge core book page 162-163. You will find a shocking truth in that description of that weapon that while it makes them good to a point, it is not the end all to droids that you make them out to be. As a GM or even a player, I would still rather use a blaster than an ion gun for 99% of any fighting against a droid or cyborg. 

 

From what I can gather here, it is not a mechanical issue you are having with the rules, it is a people problem you are having with your GM, and they seem to be making stuff up as they go, or house ruling stuff (which I totally love house rules, they are the best thing ever, especially when used to hurt/limit players), or has a complete lack of understanding of how FFG does the game and is trying to use a point of reference from Saga or D20/D6 games. 

 

So in short, just come out and ask the question with out all the other stuff attached to it. Also be clear to us if you are the player or the GM so we can have a better frame of reference to answer you from. If you state from the get go, hey I am playing a cyborg, but in every fight I get shot with ion weapons, help!!! No one will think you are min/maxing. When looking for help, you need to make it clear and concise the things you want help with. Not just bemoaning cyborgs. 

 

Just a little friendly advice for you. 

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In response to the comments of "Who carries ion weapons?", I can say this: I've been running Star Wars RPGs for at least 15 years, and I've only had ONE character carry an ion weapon everywhere.

 

That character?

A freaking Jawa Mechanic. 

 

Just some food for thought and to possibly add some hilarity here.

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I'm pretty sure I did just that. I stated what I thought the rules were, and then stated that I thought that was harsh and why. My very first sentence stated how I thought the rule worked. Seems like it would have saved everyone a lot of time for someone to point out that that's where the issue lied, rather than ignoring that (or being unsure, since so many people are clearly confused by the same rules). I don't see that as complaining. I see that as saying "here is why I have an issue with this system".

 

I'm a player for a new campaign, so no character yet. I'm considering making a droid, but based on the rules in the book, I was afraid of being overshadowed by the other characters (or at worst, being a liability due to the cybernetics system).

 

This is also what keeps happening; somehow my point keeps getting misconstrued. My issue was not with ion weapons affecting droids. That is not what I meant when I said "droids have it worse". Literally every argument I've made has been about cybernetics. I've read the rules on ion. I know how ion works. The reason I said "droids have it worse" is because they're based around cybernetics, meaning any issues other species have with cybernetics are amplified for droids (and Ganks). I have zero issue with ion affecting droids, but somehow that is the issue that keeps getting called out.

 

There is no problem with the GM. The problem is with the ambiguous rules outlined in the books. They're so unclear that it took 18 posts for someone to notice that my grasp on the rules might not be correct. And that's the first sentence in my post! And even then, I count 5 different interpretations of how the rules work, not counting my own, plus my GM's, and another player in my group. That's 8 different interpretations of the same rule set.

Edited by karaokelove

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The idea is don't be overt with your cybernetics.  Why would anyone shoot an organic with an ion weapon?  The aggressor has to know or strongly suspect the presence of cybernetics to risk shooting at a target with a weapon that might not be worth using.

Unfortunately, only the repli-limb cybernetics are not overt, and they don’t give you any benefit beyond a normal limb.

If you want to get actual benefits from cybernetics, then they are overt.

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The idea is don't be overt with your cybernetics.  Why would anyone shoot an organic with an ion weapon?  The aggressor has to know or strongly suspect the presence of cybernetics to risk shooting at a target with a weapon that might not be worth using.

Unfortunately, only the repli-limb cybernetics are not overt, and they don’t give you any benefit beyond a normal limb.

If you want to get actual benefits from cybernetics, then they are overt.

 

So if I have a cybernetic arm under full Laminate armor, the arm must still be overt?

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So if I have a cybernetic arm under full Laminate armor, the arm must still be overt?

Do you wear full laminate armor everywhere you go? Do you wear it to bed? Do you wear it to the bathroom? Do you wear it in the shower?

For those times when the cyberarm is not covered by the full laminate armor, then yes — that would most likely be overt.

For those times when you are wearing the full laminate armor, then no — it probably would not.

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Look at your topic title and your phrasing.... Not weird that people see a rant and not a question, is it?

As others have pointed out there is no reason for people to carry ion weapons without a good reason. If you do encounter it a lot then either your GM is being a **** or it is extremely obvious you have a weak spot on forehand. People will have to know they will fight you or why else bring it? A weapon that is ineffective to pretty much 95% of the popularion seems like an odd choice to carry around.

And then there is the active targeting the Ion weapon needs in order to do any harm.

In short, I wouldn't worry about it.

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The idea is don't be overt with your cybernetics.  Why would anyone shoot an organic with an ion weapon?  The aggressor has to know or strongly suspect the presence of cybernetics to risk shooting at a target with a weapon that might not be worth using.

Unfortunately, only the repli-limb cybernetics are not overt, and they don’t give you any benefit beyond a normal limb.

If you want to get actual benefits from cybernetics, then they are overt.

 

So if I have a cybernetic arm under full Laminate armor, the arm must still be overt?

 

A coat and glove solves your trouble pretty easily, flight suit, jump suit, pants and shoes, etc, unless you play a streaker cyborg you should be ok....

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try this: droids with cybernetic implants loose 1 strain from the threshold per implant, but it is no longer 1, as it is part of the whole body, in organic beings, they are not part of the body, like irl

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For the record, here is what our GM has decided to go with, which I think is more than fair:

 

If you're a cyborg, you take strain from ion damage reduced by soak and armor as per normal strain damage.  If someone hits the implant directly (via called shot), it will cease to function.  In most cases, this isn't really a big deal, costing you setback dice until repaired or the end of the encounter.  If an ion weapon gets a crit, I will disable a cybernetics enhancement at random for cyborgs or roll the normal crit chart for droids. Eventually, ion weapons will happen in our game.  Especially if multiple players are playing a droid.  When it does happen, characters with large obvious cybernetics may suffer from the occasional called shot.  Smaller cybernetics, such as eyes, would probably be harder to notice in the heat of battle, and some, such as the immune system implant, are probably impossible to hit with a called shot because they're completely internal.

Edited by karaokelove

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But they are used against droids, which are designed to use cybernetic implants.

 

How are Cybernetically enhanced creatures more difficult to hit. Agility doesn't affect that, correct? (I'm still relatively new to the game, which is why I'm trying to figure out this issue here on the forums). If that is the case, then that basically makes cybernetics an all-or-nothing mechanic, like Superman. If you don't have ion, the Cyborg/Droid wins. If you do have ion, you win. That seems like bad design.

 

And an Ion Blaster is only 250 credits and rarity 3. That makes them one of the most common and inexpensive weapons in the galaxy.

 

Not specifically harder to hit, but more difficult opponents.

Also, spoons are way more common... so should be used in combat all the time (you know, using that logic  ^_^ )

Point is, unless the opponents KNOW your guys are loaded up with cybernetics, there's no reason for them to bring Ion weapons to the fight. 

 

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My own houserule is that characters with one or more cybernetic implants take damage to their strain track from weapons with the Ion quality. Further, against such targets, Ion weapons are treated as having the Sunder quality that can be activated to damage specific cybernetic implants.

Edited by HappyDaze

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It's not a matter of number crunching or min-maxing, and it's not a matter of ignoring cannon and saying they shouldn't be affected by ion. It's a matter of a major gameplay mechanic being essentially broken, which also severely impacts an entire race (droids, as well as Ganks).

 

I absolutely think cybernetics should be affected by ion (and think it's quite fair that cyborgs take stun damage from ion just like droids). But the fact that it's an all-or-nothing system makes no sense. It's the "single point of ion damage completely obliterating a character for an entire encounter" that I have an issue with. With the current rules, it doesn't matter if you take 1 ion damage or 10,000, the effect is the same, and that makes no sense.

 

From a GM perspective, imagine you introduce a major baddie who's supposed to be a threat to the whole party, but he's got cybernetic eyes. Instead of taking 10 rounds to defeat and having him jet pack away to fight another day, he immediately takes one point of ion damage, goes blind, and gets owned by the pc's. That's insane.

 

Ok, I'm gonna sound a bit aggressive here, but your reasoning (especially in the first post) is what's coming off as insane.

Several points have been brought up repeatedly here:

1: Why would baddies be carrying around a (mostly) useless weapon just to counter the players? Especially if the players don't have visible cybernetics?

2: Even if there are droids in the group, why would the enemy be firing Ion at the non-droid characters?

3: Why shouldn't droid cybernetics shut down by Ion weapons. Ion weapons are specifically built to take out droids and are basically the kryptonite for droids in SW. 

4: It takes out one cybernetic part, not all. (In the rulebook example it said "cybernetic legs". To me that is one part, as they'd both be connected)

 

 

I have a player in my game that is a Gank, so built in cybernetics.

 

I've house ruled that unless an ion weapon has Blast (and it actually triggers vs. the cyborg), the attacker needs to make a called shot (2 setback for 1 aim maneuver, 1 setback for 2 aim maneuvers) against the specific cybernetic to disable it.

 

It hasn't actually come up yet (we've only played two sessions of the campaign so far), but I think it's a fair compromise.

 

Cheers!

 

EDIT: Or you could change it to something like Ion weapons inflict Strain on cyborgs, either in place of (or in addition to) my house rule.

 

Yeah, according to how I read the rules, you need to get hit specifically in the cybernetic part.

Now, if that's a called shot or just alot of advantages/crits/triumphs on the enemies hit-roll, that's up to the GM

 

So as far as enemies not knowing about cybernetics, that makes sense for cyborgs, but what about droids? Enemies will know to target them with ion, so it once again becomes important to know if they need to crit or make a called shot to target a cybernetic upgrade (or if they can even discern that a droid has a cybernetic upgrade, since they're already completely cybernetic). It also seems weird that a droid that already has mechanical legs can get hit with ion and only take stun damage, but if they take the cybernetic legs upgrade, suddenly their legs shut down if hit with ion, in addition to the stun damage. From an RP perspective, that's pretty weird.

 

Yes, but then droids are SUPER succeptive to Ion.

It's litterally built to take out droids.

And unlike flesh-and-blood creatures, all of a droids cybernetics are interconnected with other electronics, so an Ion charge would easily travel through the entire droid.

Basically, Ion weapons are the anti-droid weapons of the SW universe.

Also, just because there are droids in the group, doesn't mean the baddies will carry Ion weapons all the time.

They'll only carry one or two if they KNOW there is a droid in the group and they are planning in advance to not only attack the group, but specifically take out the droid as fast as possible.

And even then, all you really have to do is concentrate fire on whoever has the ion weapon.

If they all have ion weapons, then just hide the droid and stand triumphantly in the open and mow them down with the rest of the group since Ion weapons are nigh-useless against organics.

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If they all have ion weapons, then just hide the droid and stand triumphantly in the open and mow them down with the rest of the group since Ion weapons are nigh-useless against organics.

Unless they’re using T7 Ion Disruptors, or the equivalent.

In which case, you are well and truly screwed.

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Reading through the entries, several thoughts come to mind in as far as how Ion weapons and cybernetics are portrayed in SW.

 

I can only think of one occurrence with personal ion weapons, and that's with the jawa in New Hope, and though I'm sure it was very useful to take down Artoo quickly, the weapon was more to take the droid undamaged to sell on. In my mind, as GM, I would make personal ion weapons fairly specialized and up the Rarity of them (the weapon that the jawa uses I've always thought looked built by jawas rather than bought). So a specialized 'droid-targeting' bounty hunter may carry one, or if a cyber-augmented character was being hunted and the hunter had done his homework on his prey, they would carry one.

 

Also, this whole thread does raise the question: Why weren't clone troopers (or at least NCOs) all equipped with an ion pistol sidearm, considering the vast majority of opposition were droids? Possible answer: Because it's Star Wars and blasters are just WAY more fun!

 

Cybernetics in SW is another issue, though I may well be getting flak on this one, but: Other than Luke/Anakin (prosthetic replacement), Vader (life support) or Lobot (job specific augmentation); there is very little cybernetics seen outside of droids. But this my personal little bugbear of "this is Star Wars dammit, not Cyberpunk!" (or Shadowrun, or whatever). But each to their own, in the end it's a space fantasy game setting and personal ranting aside if you want a cyber-enhanced character as their schtick, you can. Just needed to vent that :)

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