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Toqtamish

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Need to see the mc80. Cause the mc30 seem way underpowered compared to the glad. And the mc80 looks like it might not survive a front blast from the imp II

Don't mind me. . . I will be laughing in the corner.

You realize that the MC30 is speed 4 naturally? It has a red dice version with a Turbolaser upgrade. That means we can put XI7 Turbolasers, Heavy Turbolasers, etc.

The blue dice MC30 will likely get access to Ion upgrades.. . It has 11 shields and 4 defense tokens.

Now trust me, I am not mocking you I am genuinely curious. Why do you think the MC30 is underpowered compared to the Gladiator?

Edited by Lyraeus

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Let's make sure I am not crazy. . .

Devastator and Vader's ability in conjuction.

The following works right?

So let's say your ISD 2 has 3 defense tokens discarded and 1 exhausted.

Now you activate Vader to let you reroll any number of dice discarding the last defense token.

Since this is like a concentrate fire token you can wait to reroll until the end of the modify step. (this is the iffy part but it makes sense)

Then you use Devastator to add 4 blue dice to the pool and roll those.

Next finish Vader's ability and reroll what you don't like.

 

Nope, you'd have to re-roll as soon as the token was spent; only afterwards could you trigger Devastator to add the dice.

 

Seems contrary to the text in the release:

 

 

 

 

Darth Vader's mastery of the Force allows him to bend the combat to your favor, taking advantage of the fact that you'll be able to see the results of your roll before you decide whether or not to use his reroll.

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I was thinking about the schedule for the various ships being spoiled. How cruel would it be if they did the baby Imperial ship, the squadrons, the baby Rebel and THEN and only then the big Rebel ship? Cuthulu knows the sanity levels around here would plummet faster than even it could ever imagine.

 

I asked my cat what Lyraeus would say, he thought "524111111111111111111111111111111111111111" which is cat for "noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!" :D

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Some thoughts:

- Kudos to FFG for making sure the tractor beam card specifies an enemy ship. For its cost its a great upgrade - so cheap!

- Neither ISD has the ordnance upgrade, so the ISD 1 can't scale its black dice up as much as other black dice ships. On the other hand they both have Ion Batteries.

- Some of these upgrades seem to replace my usual defence suppression upgrades - intel officer and H9s, and are probably better at it and cheaper.

- Interesting that the contain token clearly doesn't provide any defence against upgrade cards. Glad they made it clear.

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Some thoughts:

- Kudos to FFG for making sure the tractor beam card specifies an enemy ship. For its cost its a great upgrade - so cheap!

- Neither ISD has the ordnance upgrade, so the ISD 1 can't scale its black dice up as much as other black dice ships. On the other hand they both have Ion Batteries.

- Some of these upgrades seem to replace my usual defence suppression upgrades - intel officer and H9s, and are probably better at it and cheaper.

- Interesting that the contain token clearly doesn't provide any defence against upgrade cards. Glad they made it clear.

 

Excellent thoughts !

 

I share your point about cards that play with defense tokens. I think that they're going to become relatively mandatory in the coming game, especially with larger ships.

The Contain card only affecting a standard Critical Effect means that we are going to see more cards that bank on criticals. Right now XX-9 Turbolasers just became interesting the ability to inflict at least one face up card. That means Screed isn't going anywhere and ACM and other Crit effects still have a place.

Squarons also became more interesting as an early means to force spending defense tokens.

 

Devastator is going to be a great counter if the meta goes defense token mitigation. "Sure man, kill my defense tokens and eat dice to the face."

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Hmmm

 

110 - ISD-1 (4 Squads)

005 - Expanded Hangers (+1 Squad)

0## - Boosted Signal (Long Range Activation)

010 - Admirla Chiraneau (Squads cant be tied down)

038 - Grand Moff Tarkin (+1 Squad token every turn)

 

009 - Tie Bomber [x5]

016 - Tie Bomber (Rhymer)

 

You have 6 Black dice Bombers that cant be tied down, can be activated at long range and have move 4 with medium attack range. Could be interesting with a second one running a similar outfit and just out right put 12 bombers on the field ignoring the enemy squads.

 

Nice carrier ship. I might add Gunnery Teams to ensure I can get maximum fire out of that front arc, but that's a lot of goodies for your squadrons to play with (and lots of squadrons to play with them).  :) On the flip side, I'd be curious what having these upgrades on an ISDI offers over having them on the cheaper Vic I chassis with Corruptor? The obvious difference is the ability to support both Boosted [whatever] and Expanded Hangers due to the extra offensive retrofit slot, but I'd be curious if there were other considerations that made the ISD 1 more attractive with your set-up.

 

 

 

Hmmm

 

110 - ISD-1 (4 Squads)

005 - Expanded Hangers (+1 Squad)

0## - Boosted Signal (Long Range Activation)

010 - Admirla Chiraneau (Squads cant be tied down)

038 - Grand Moff Tarkin (+1 Squad token every turn)

 

009 - Tie Bomber [x5]

016 - Tie Bomber (Rhymer)

 

You have 6 Black dice Bombers that cant be tied down, can be activated at long range and have move 4 with medium attack range.

That is what. . . 224 without know what Boosted Coms is worth?

 

 

It's a lot compared to what we're used to playing with so far, but still enough to allow a GSDI with ACMS and a GSDI Demolisher with ACMs, with about 40 points left over (plus a potent, mobile Rhymer ball that can't be tied down). Boosted [whatever] is coming out of that 40, of course, so your final working total will be less.

 

At the same time, I fully expect that pure TIE Bomber builds will probably give way to mixed bomber builds once the Empire gets a broader selection of bombers (the generic Firespray and unique Slave I, at least, based on prior pictures). That will obviously cut into the 40, too... so yeah, it'll be a significant investment in the squadrons and their carrier(s). But even with just 3 ship activations, that list is bringing a lot of speed, mobility, and black/blue anti-ship dice (in theory  :) ).

 

 

 

 

Hmmm

 

110 - ISD-1 (4 Squads)

005 - Expanded Hangers (+1 Squad)

0## - Boosted Signal (Long Range Activation)

010 - Admirla Chiraneau (Squads cant be tied down)

038 - Grand Moff Tarkin (+1 Squad token every turn)

 

009 - Tie Bomber [x5]

016 - Tie Bomber (Rhymer)

 

You have 6 Black dice Bombers that cant be tied down, can be activated at long range and have move 4 with medium attack range.

That is what. . . 224 without know what Boosted Coms is worth?

 

Well it would be

110 (2) - 220 ISD-1

005 (2) - 010 Expanded Hanger Bay

005 (2) - 010 Boosted Comms (5pts est)

010 (1) - 010 Admiral Chirneau

------------------------

250~ + commander flavor + 9(9) Tie Bomber +16 Rhymer = 365 + Commander with 10 Bombers

Ether way thats 50 pts of Squad hull to chew through and an ISD is not going to be an easy kill so to speak I believe.

 

 

Since Chiraneau is unique (as you pointed out), I think you'd probably need at least one more fighter with Intel to make it work optimally--otherwise you have a max of six bombers that can move if you run into heavy-anti-squadron squadron builds (we need a better term for those, since I'll imagine they'll become even more of a thing with Wave II).

 

That also raises a larger question. For these squadron-focused ship-killer builds, would you rather have Chiraneau or a villain squadron with Intel? We have incomplete information (no cost), obviously, but we know Chiraneau costs 10, at least 1 non-unique Rogue variant (HWK-295, I think) has Intel, and Jan Ors (the unique HWK-295) costs 19 (based on a prior spoiled image), so I think it's likely the regular HWK will be somewhere in the 12-14 range. Assuming the Empire has a similarly-costed non-unique squadron with Intel (I'm assuming, for game balance purposes, that they would), would you rather pay 10 for Chiraneau or pay 2-5 points more to get another squadron that can move/shoot, more hull for enemies to chew through, and allow bombers to move their full 4 spaces instead of just two? 

Edited by Rythbryt

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Nope, you'd have to re-roll as soon as the token was spent; only afterwards could you trigger Devastator to add the dice.

 

Seems contrary to the text in the release:

 

Darth Vader's mastery of the Force allows him to bend the combat to your favor, taking advantage of the fact that you'll be able to see the results of your roll before you decide whether or not to use his reroll.

 

 

That article text is referring to the initial attack roll, and is true for every card effect that rerolls dice.  It isn't directed at Devastator, because that card has not even been mentioned yet.

 

ATTACK

2. Roll Attack Dice

- If the defender is a ship, gather the attack dice indicated in the attacking hull zone's battery armament.

3. Resolve Attack Effects

- Modify Dice: The attacker can resolve any of its effects that modify its dice.  This includes card effects and the [Concentrate Fire] command.

 

MODIFYING DICE

- Reroll: When a die is rerolled, the attacker picks it up and rolls it again.

- Add: When a die is added, roll an unused die of the appropriate color into the attack pool.

 

Both Darth Vader and Devastator are card effects and neither change the battery armament of the ship.  Once the initial pool is rolled, either or both of them could trigger in whichever order you prefer.  EITHER

- Vader spends a defense token to re-roll any or all of the existing dice, THEN

- Devastator adds dice to the pool (including one for the token Vader discarded, since it's already gone),

OR

- Devastator adds dice to the pool (only for the defense tokens that are already discarded) THEN

- Vader spends a defense token to re-roll any or all of them.

 

Each card is one effect, when you resolve it the entire effect happens immediately.  Then you pick the next effect, etc.

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I was thinking about the schedule for the various ships being spoiled. How cruel would it be if they did the baby Imperial ship, the squadrons, the baby Rebel and THEN and only then the big Rebel ship? Cuthulu knows the sanity levels around here would plummet faster than even it could ever imagine.

 

I asked my cat what Lyraeus would say, he thought "524111111111111111111111111111111111111111" which is cat for "noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!" :D

Actually, I would not mind so much. The annoyance of everyone else though might through me off.

Have to ask. Does your cat read backwards?

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I have a couple lists in mind involving the ISDs. I'm going to call this first one "No Escape":

ISD-2

-Vader

-Tractor Beam

-Advanced Projectors

ISD-2

-Tractor Beam

-Advanced Projectors

GSD-1

-Demolisher

-ACMs

2x TIE interceptors

The second list is similar to the Rhymer ball discussed above.

ISD-1

-Screed

-Expanded Hangars

-Tractor Beam

-Heavy Turbolasers

-Relentless

GSD-1

-Demolisher

-ACMs

GSD-1

-ACMs

2x TIE Advanced

2x TIE Interceptors

3x TIE Bombers

Rhymer

Whatever the Intel ship is

I only feel the need to be able to activate the Intel ship and the 4 Bombers to maintain the pressure. Chiraneau only allows movement, not necessarily firing, so I think the Intel ship is needed. If I need both, the Heavy Turbolasers and Relentless can easily be swapped out. I also think we'll see far more fighters out there because of Intel. You aren't going to be able to throw out a couple fighters and lock down bomber wings anymore. You have to be able to destroy them. On the flip side, that means bringing escorts for the bombers and bringing fighters that can win the dogfight.

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Hmmm

 

110 - ISD-1 (4 Squads)

005 - Expanded Hangers (+1 Squad)

0## - Boosted Signal (Long Range Activation)

010 - Admirla Chiraneau (Squads cant be tied down)

038 - Grand Moff Tarkin (+1 Squad token every turn)

 

009 - Tie Bomber [x5]

016 - Tie Bomber (Rhymer)

 

You have 6 Black dice Bombers that cant be tied down, can be activated at long range and have move 4 with medium attack range. Could be interesting with a second one running a similar outfit and just out right put 12 bombers on the field ignoring the enemy squads.

 

Nice carrier ship. I might add Gunnery Teams to ensure I can get maximum fire out of that front arc, but that's a lot of goodies for your squadrons to play with (and lots of squadrons to play with them).  :) On the flip side, I'd be curious what having these upgrades on an ISDI offers over having them on the cheaper Vic I chassis with Corruptor? The obvious difference is the ability to support both Boosted [whatever] and Expanded Hangers due to the extra offensive retrofit slot, but I'd be curious if there were other considerations that made the ISD 1 more attractive with your set-up.

 

 

Hmmm

 

110 - ISD-1 (4 Squads)

005 - Expanded Hangers (+1 Squad)

0## - Boosted Signal (Long Range Activation)

010 - Admirla Chiraneau (Squads cant be tied down)

038 - Grand Moff Tarkin (+1 Squad token every turn)

 

009 - Tie Bomber [x5]

016 - Tie Bomber (Rhymer)

 

You have 6 Black dice Bombers that cant be tied down, can be activated at long range and have move 4 with medium attack range.

That is what. . . 224 without know what Boosted Coms is worth?

 

It's a lot compared to what we're used to playing with so far, but still enough to allow a GSDI with ACMS and a GSDI Demolisher with ACMs, with about 40 points left over (plus a potent, mobile Rhymer ball that can't be tied down). Boosted [whatever] is coming out of that 40, of course, so your final working total will be less.

 

At the same time, I fully expect that pure TIE Bomber builds will probably give way to mixed bomber builds once the Empire gets a broader selection of bombers (the generic Firespray and unique Slave I, at least, based on prior pictures). That will obviously cut into the 40, too... so yeah, it'll be a significant investment in the squadrons and their carrier(s). But even with just 3 ship activations, that list is bringing a lot of speed, mobility, and black/blue anti-ship dice (in theory  :) ).

 

 

Hmmm

 

110 - ISD-1 (4 Squads)

005 - Expanded Hangers (+1 Squad)

0## - Boosted Signal (Long Range Activation)

010 - Admirla Chiraneau (Squads cant be tied down)

038 - Grand Moff Tarkin (+1 Squad token every turn)

 

009 - Tie Bomber [x5]

016 - Tie Bomber (Rhymer)

 

You have 6 Black dice Bombers that cant be tied down, can be activated at long range and have move 4 with medium attack range.

That is what. . . 224 without know what Boosted Coms is worth?

Well it would be

110 (2) - 220 ISD-1

005 (2) - 010 Expanded Hanger Bay

005 (2) - 010 Boosted Comms (5pts est)

010 (1) - 010 Admiral Chirneau

------------------------

250~ + commander flavor + 9(9) Tie Bomber +16 Rhymer = 365 + Commander with 10 Bombers

Ether way thats 50 pts of Squad hull to chew through and an ISD is not going to be an easy kill so to speak I believe.

 

Since Chiraneau is unique (as you pointed out), I think you'd probably need at least one more fighter with Intel to make it work optimally--otherwise you have a max of six bombers that can move if you run into heavy-anti-squadron squadron builds (we need a better term for those, since I'll imagine they'll become even more of a thing with Wave II).

 

That also raises a larger question. For these squadron-focused ship-killer builds, would you rather have Chiraneau or a villain squadron with Intel? We have incomplete information (no cost), obviously, but we know Chiraneau costs 10, at least 1 non-unique Rogue variant (HWK-295, I think) has Intel, and Jan Ors (the unique HWK-295) costs 19 (based on a prior spoiled image), so I think it's likely the regular HWK will be somewhere in the 12-14 range. Assuming the Empire has a similarly-costed non-unique squadron with Intel (I'm assuming, for game balance purposes, that they would), would you rather pay 10 for Chiraneau or pay 2-5 points more to get another squadron that can move/shoot, more hull for enemies to chew through, and allow bombers to move their full 4 spaces instead of just two?

To add to this amazing analysis.

The IGG is a Motti Scale of 5, the II list is a Motti Scale of 6.

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Is Armada like x wing where you can retold only once?

retold?

 

 

 

Is Armada like x wing where you can retold only once?

Not sure what you're asking!

 

the retold throws me  :)

 

Sorry, reroll.

I'm asking because that would mean you could use Vader to blank evasion tokens at medium range. "Oh, I can't reroll that, I already did!"

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Is Armada like x wing where you can retold only once?

retold?

 

Is Armada like x wing where you can retold only once?

Not sure what you're asking!

 

the retold throws me  :)

Sorry, reroll.

I'm asking because that would mean you could use Vader to blank evasion tokens at medium range. "Oh, I can't reroll that, I already did!"

Though, you can't reroll something if the opponent has evaded it. This is due to your rerolls as the attacker being in modify step of the attack and the spend defense tokens occurring after that step.

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I have not seen any rules on extra rerolls. As far as I can tell you can leading shots a die, concentrate fire token the same die, and Vader the same die in a single turn if you wanted.

If a die is giving you that much trouble, just burn it, preferably whilst the other dice are watching.

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