A funny thing happened in a tourney yesterday. Thoughts on this?

[Keffisch 2,642]

In what realm do people never measure, even though it is "clear" that something is within range/will hit/overlap.

We always measure.

[Hobojebus 11,341]

It wasn't bad sportsmanship to ask to have the template put down, it was for the other guy to just declare it hits.

It wasn't wrong to ask the TO.

But if you had a conner net token and didn't need it yourself then you should of just used it.

[shotbyscott 1,147]

thats why you need to buy 2 of every ship so you have all the templates you need

[droz69 232]

It wasn't bad sportsmanship to ask to have the template put down, it was for the other guy to just declare it hits.

It wasn't wrong to ask the TO.

But if you had a conner net token and didn't need it yourself then you should of just used it.

Also would have required me to go out to my car and spend time dragging it out of my storage. Again, not something most people would be keen on doing in a times tournament.

[treybert 893]

thats why you need to buy 2 of every ship so you have all the templates you need

 

That's potentially not enough still. If you ran 2 ships with EM and CN, you'd technically need 4 k-wings to be safe.

[Toqtamish 3,643]

 

It wasn't bad sportsmanship to ask to have the template put down, it was for the other guy to just declare it hits.

It wasn't wrong to ask the TO.

But if you had a conner net token and didn't need it yourself then you should of just used it.

Also would have required me to go out to my car and spend time dragging it out of my storage. Again, not something most people would be keen on doing in a times tournament.

 

Also could have gotten someone not playing to grab it for you. Or bring your storage bin in

[Frostthorn 168]

Here's a question and a possible answer to the "only one template" issue. Is there a ruling stating the (thick card) templates be solid? The card FFG uses is quite thick, would it be improper to carefully split a token down it's core to have two? I'd of course doll up and tape/sticker/seal/paint the paper side. Just an idea that popped up while sitting here at work. Thoughts?

-Rose

[Sideslip 457]

Is this any worse than owning four shuttles in Wave 3 in order to have enough Advanced Sensors to go around? Buying an extra K-wing (or borrowing a token, or waiting for another ship to include this upgrade) really isn't a big deal.

Edited September 1, 2015 by Sideslip

[Tvayumat 3,637]

Really? OP should stop the game, go to his car, and dig out his own personal property OR let some stranger take his keys, all because some guy failed to anticipate his own needs in a list?

Well, call me what you want, but I expect my opponents to actually *have* all the components they need in a tournament setting, otherwise as far as I'm concerned they're running an illegal list.

I would never, EVER pUT my opponent in the position that OPs put him in. It's simple courtesy and the barest glint of responsibility.

I don't let people use my dice, either. If people want to get offended, fine, but my dice have walked away in someone else's bag before, and now nobody rolls them but me.

[VanorDM 11,599]

Tvayumat is right.

While there may of been a better way of dealing with it. Expecting the OP to go out to his car and get one is not even remotely resonable. If he had one sitting there at the table sure that would of been nice, but wouldn't be required.

If you want to run two coner nets or two cluster mines, you should have 2 of that token. As Tvayumat says, to not do is rather poor sportsmanship. You shouldn't go into a game expecting someone to either take you at your word, or somehow come up with a needed competent in the middle of the game.

As far as dice, no I wouldn't let someone use mine either. If they don't have enough they can roll some again, there's no need to let them use mine, and this is actually covered in the rules.

I do agree, that I would of most likely marked the original CN somehow and let him reuse that one.

[Buhallin 4,563]

I find it amusing that we went from "I'd never give my opponent a token to use against me" to "Well, it was out in my car, I couldn't be expected to go get it!"

[Tvayumat 3,637]

I find it amusing that we went from "I'd never give my opponent a token to use against me" to "Well, it was out in my car, I couldn't be expected to go get it!"

I think you're reading too much into a comment pretty obviously intended to be mostly humorous.

The OP is not required to justify his lack of will/ability to lend his opponent a token in a tournament. It is entirely his prerogative.

I try to be respectful of people's individual quirks. Some people are very possessive of their templates/tokens, or paranoid about other people using them. One should never expect others to travel outside of their comfort zone to correct a mistake that they themselves made.

I may not lend someone something simply because I don't like the person (Though, admittedly, someone I disliked personally that much I probably wouldn't play with in the first place). Again, my prerogative. Such is life. Far worse fates have befallen far better people for far less reason.

Truly "flying casual" would be to shrug, acknowledge that he made a mistake in not bringing two tokens, and deal with the outcome.

Edited September 1, 2015 by Tvayumat

[Chioxin 37]

Here's a question and a possible answer to the "only one template" issue. Is there a ruling stating the (thick card) templates be solid? The card FFG uses is quite thick, would it be improper to carefully split a token down it's core to have two? I'd of course doll up and tape/sticker/seal/paint the paper side. Just an idea that popped up while sitting here at work. Thoughts?

-Rose

 

This has come up a few times here, no one has answered it. I asked the same thing a while ago. There is a rulling though. It's right in the tournament rules, and it's that ALL templates, cards, and the likes must be from FFG in order to be "OK for use in game." It does make an exception for movement templates, but in that case it states both players must use that set.

So... yes... you are not allowed to cut out your own templates and bring them according to the rules.

[Buhallin 4,563]

 

I think you're reading too much into a comment pretty obviously intended to be mostly humorous.

The OP is not required to justify his lack of will/ability to lend his opponent a token in a tournament. It is entirely his prerogative.

...

Truly "flying casual" would be to shrug, acknowledge that he made a mistake in not bringing two tokens, and deal with the outcome.

I didn't see anything humorous in the statement, and it's perfectly consistent with the attitude he's displayed.  You're right that it's entirely his prerogative.  Just as it's mine to think it's a pretty unpleasant attitude which reflects badly on the game and the people who play it.

 

It would be one thing if there were truly no Connor Net token anywhere in the building, or if the guy was trying to proxy a Y-wing with a printed Miranda Doni card because he just hadn't bought it.  But if actually having a token and refusing to share it in order to gain an advantage over your opponent counts as "Fly Casual" then the term literally has no meaning.

 

And for the record, here's what Fly Casual originally meant, from hothie's very first post:

 

Every gaming community has its share of people who take their game way too seriously. In my experience, the X-wing community has an extremely low percentage of these people as compared to other gaming communities. Instead, I have found this community understands that this is a game. We play this game to have fun and to share our experiences with others.

 

Refusing to share a token with your opponent because FFG's new printing policy can't keep up with the rules, and doing so because there's $40 in store credit(!) on the line, is the absolute paragon of taking the game too seriously.  There is nothing about that which is playing for fun or a shared experience.

 

So yeah, he can do it - it's well within the rules.  But this sort of asshattery is exactly what "Fly Casual" argues AGAINST.  Don't try and newspeak the term to support it.

[Tvayumat 3,637]

 

 

I think you're reading too much into a comment pretty obviously intended to be mostly humorous.

The OP is not required to justify his lack of will/ability to lend his opponent a token in a tournament. It is entirely his prerogative.

...

Truly "flying casual" would be to shrug, acknowledge that he made a mistake in not bringing two tokens, and deal with the outcome.

I didn't see anything humorous in the statement, and it's perfectly consistent with the attitude he's displayed.  You're right that it's entirely his prerogative.  Just as it's mine to think it's a pretty unpleasant attitude which reflects badly on the game and the people who play it.

 

It would be one thing if there were truly no Connor Net token anywhere in the building, or if the guy was trying to proxy a Y-wing with a printed Miranda Doni card because he just hadn't bought it.  But if actually having a token and refusing to share it in order to gain an advantage over your opponent counts as "Fly Casual" then the term literally has no meaning.

 

And for the record, here's what Fly Casual originally meant, from hothie's very first post:

 

Every gaming community has its share of people who take their game way too seriously. In my experience, the X-wing community has an extremely low percentage of these people as compared to other gaming communities. Instead, I have found this community understands that this is a game. We play this game to have fun and to share our experiences with others.

 

Refusing to share a token with your opponent because FFG's new printing policy can't keep up with the rules, and doing so because there's $40 in store credit(!) on the line, is the absolute paragon of taking the game too seriously.  There is nothing about that which is playing for fun or a shared experience.

 

So yeah, he can do it - it's well within the rules.  But this sort of asshattery is exactly what "Fly Casual" argues AGAINST.  Don't try and newspeak the term to support it.

 

Playing according to the rules is not "asshattery".

Maybe some people were raised to expect the entire world to bend over backward to accommodate them, and maybe the kind thing to do is just that, but it is in no way a negative, cruel, meanspirited or inappropriate thing to simply NOT do so. It may not be the kindest or most magnanimous thing to refuse, but it in no way indicates poor character OR sportsmanship. Poor character would be the OP saying "No, and also you can't borrow one even if someone has one!" and actively attempting to prevent the player from correcting his mistake. This is pretty obviously NOT what happened, and again the OP is in no way required by any standard of decency to lend his personal property to someone who, again, came to the tournament unprepared for the list he wanted to run.

As for newspeak, I think it's ironic that you're trying to define what fly casual is for other people. Mine is quite different from yours. By your apparent definition I begin to question why we bother with templates at all? Why not just move the ships around the board making pew pew sounds and give everyone a participation certificate afterwards?

Not everyone plays the game for the same reason you do. Some people derive satisfaction in completely different ways, and what's fun for you or acceptable to you may be distinctly and entirely UNfun for someone else. So now your fun (or specifically, lack or preparation) should trump mine? I reject that outright. Flying casual is learning to deal with a variety of people without strife or drama, not forcing your own narrow definition of how they need to behave onto everyone you meet. 

The very definition of "not flying casual" is accusing the OP of asshattery because he didn't want to go out of his way to help someone who was woefully unprepared. No one should be required to give of themselves lest they be labeled a pariah and at NO point should simply following the rules of the game be regarded as inappropriate in a competitive tournament setting, of all places.

At worst, the OP's behavior was mildly inconsiderate and ultimately benign, but that describes 90% of what most people do over the course of their entire lives.

Edited September 1, 2015 by Tvayumat

[Chioxin 37]

There's a lot of growling going on here.

 

To the OP, I think you're right in what you did. You just want to play by the rules, and that's all fair and fine. I imagine you're a good sport about it, and this other guy is just making an oops and perhaps feeling a bit upset with FFG for not providing enough templates to run a build he wanted too. Fair on both ends, really... What your opponent wanted to do though, just doesn't work within the game rules very well, and that was pointed out by you and makes total sense. I mean, after all... if dropping a bomb when I don't have a token to represent it means I can "pick up a previous bomb." WOOT, I'm going to PURPOSEFULLY not bring a bomb token, so that I have that option if I so feel that tactic is needed!

 

Which brings me to the "This is why we have CLEAR and CONCISE rules." We all want to play a good, solid, game. We don't want stupid unclear unfair shenanigans happening in our game. Now, I feel like FFG has given us clear and concise rules as far as "You are responsible for bringing all of the items needed to run and play your list," not your opponent, not your TO, not anything else. If someone wants to be "kind," then so be it. Let them be kind... But in the end it falls on YOU the player to bring your stuff.

 

FFG, I think while this could have happened prior, it is now going to happen more because of Extra Munitions. I think it might be best if you lay down the law in an FAQ about what actually happens if someone drops a lasting bomb item but doesn't actually have the tokens to do so. Do they pick up the last one? Or is it just an invalid action that can't be taken? FFG needs to tell us this.

Until then... bring everything you need to run your squad, or don't bring your squad at all. It sucks, but, that's how it is right? Nothing wrong or unsportsmanship like about playing by the rules... Seriously.

[Tvayumat 3,637]

 "This is why we have CLEAR and CONCISE rules." We all want to play a good, solid, game. We don't want stupid unclear unfair shenanigans happening in our game. Now, I feel like FFG has given us clear and concise rules as far as "You are responsible for bringing all of the items needed to run and play your list," not your opponent, not your TO, not anything else. If someone wants to be "kind," then so be it. Let them be kind... But in the end it falls on YOU the player to bring your stuff.

 

FFG, I think while this could have happened prior, it is now going to happen more because of Extra Munitions. I think it might be best if you lay down the law in an FAQ about what actually happens if someone drops a lasting bomb item but doesn't actually have the tokens to do so. Do they pick up the last one? Or is it just an invalid action that can't be taken? FFG needs to tell us this.

Until then... bring everything you need to run your squad, or don't bring your squad at all. It sucks, but, that's how it is right? Nothing wrong or unsportsmanship like about playing by the rules... Seriously.

Quoted for truth.

Yeah, it is an oversight IMO to include only one token in that particular set. I think it's just one of a series of oversights FFG has made in their releases but we, the players, ultimately have to adapt to it and deal with the limitations we have.

[Buhallin 4,563]

 

As for newspeak, I think it's ironic that you're trying to define what fly casual is for other people. Mine is quite different from yours. By your apparent definition I begin to question why we bother with templates at all? Why not just move the ships around the board making pew pew sounds and give everyone a participation certificate afterwards?

 

I'm not trying to define anything - the original "mission statement" of Fly Casual is right there.  And if you refuse to share a TOKEN with someone because you might lose the game, you're pretty much a paragon of someone who takes the game too seriously.

 

 

 

The very definition of "not flying casual" is accusing the OP of asshattery because he didn't want to go out of his way to help someone who was woefully unprepared. No one should be required to give of themselves lest they be labeled a pariah and at NO point should simply following the rules of the game be regarded as inappropriate in a competitive tournament setting, of all places.

 

Again, really not.  The core statement of Fly Casual was not to take the game too seriously, and ensure that everyone has fun.  If you would rather see someone run out of an event because they're shy a token, or think someone who's down a token ruins your fun, then you're taking the game way too seriously.  And really, the fact that you think sharing a token counts as "giving of themselves" points to you really not having any perspective on, well, anything.

[Tvayumat 3,637]

 

 

As for newspeak, I think it's ironic that you're trying to define what fly casual is for other people. Mine is quite different from yours. By your apparent definition I begin to question why we bother with templates at all? Why not just move the ships around the board making pew pew sounds and give everyone a participation certificate afterwards?

 

I'm not trying to define anything - the original "mission statement" of Fly Casual is right there.  And if you refuse to share a TOKEN with someone because you might lose the game, you're pretty much a paragon of someone who takes the game too seriously.

 

 

 

The very definition of "not flying casual" is accusing the OP of asshattery because he didn't want to go out of his way to help someone who was woefully unprepared. No one should be required to give of themselves lest they be labeled a pariah and at NO point should simply following the rules of the game be regarded as inappropriate in a competitive tournament setting, of all places.

 

Again, really not.  The core statement of Fly Casual was not to take the game too seriously, and ensure that everyone has fun.  If you would rather see someone run out of an event because they're shy a token, or think someone who's down a token ruins your fun, then you're taking the game way too seriously.  And really, the fact that you think sharing a token counts as "giving of themselves" points to you really not having any perspective on, well, anything.

 

I guess I just don't think that obeying the rules in the most intentionally competitive setting is taking the game too seriously. Seems like it's taking the game exactly as serious as it is. Nobody is going to lose a limb over it.

Also let's avoid hyperbole. Nobody was being run out of an event, he just couldn't do something he didn't have the components to do.

I don't think attacking my perspective because I don't like giving people my things is relevant, appropriate, polite OR accurate. I think maybe you should take a step back and re-examine your willingness to pass sweeping character judgement on people for superficial reasons.

Seems to me that getting upset because someone won't let you flagrantly violate the rules is also taking the game too seriously.

My $.02 have been thoroughly presented at this point, so I'm going to leave this thread to develop or die as it will. Bear in mind I am not and never have been a fan of touchy feely group mentalities, or compulsory kindness, so take all my opinions with a grain of salt. It's entirely possible that I'm a jerk. I won't rule it out.

Edited September 1, 2015 by Tvayumat

[imprezagoatee 436]

Forgive me if I missed this somewhere in the argument there, but to everyone who suggested they should have marked the first token to check for the hit on the attempted drop: That wouldn't work. Yeah if he hit with the second one, great, they can put the token back, but if he missed, which mine would get left off? Giving either player the choice would have been a major advantage, so that wouldn't work. So lets say the TO ruled it had to go back to the first spot, then either the second mine would disappear, or the player gets to pretend he didn't drop it, which is just as bad. So moving the first token, even to check, is not an option.

 

And as others have pointed out, asking the OP to run out to his car (or sending someone else), wasting game time pulling out a token that will clearly just help the opponent, that's just unfair. Time is a valuable resource in a tournament, especially for the player who is winning. Even having to call the TO over is a hit. If he needed to borrow a token, he should have been searching before the tournament started.

 

If I were the OP, and I had an extra mine, and it was sitting right there (which is very unlikely to happen in a tournament), I probably would have let him borrow it. I'd also let someone borrow an ion token, or regular dice (I don't have any, but no way anyone would touch my transparent/swirly dice), or lots of other things, but I wouldn't expect anyone else to do the same, anymore than I would expect a random stranger to pay for my drink at the gas station because I forgot to bring my wallet.

 

This particular problem was foreseen as soon as the mechanics for extra munitions were revealed. And is exacerbated because the rules demand you to provide all necessary tokens, which creates the feeling that "FFG is indirectly forcing players to buy extra models", or to buy products from 3rd party companies.

 

IMO, the best solution would be adding a rule which allowed players to voluntarily detonate their mines, something like: "At the start of the end phase, a player can detonate any number of its own mine tokens on the board", for example.

 

I kinda agree with the first part, I'd have paid an extra buck for the expansion if that's what was needed for another token. As for the rule proposal, I'm not too crazy about that, because it would be a huge gameplay change to mines. It would create a situation where players would detonate mines anytime is suited them, with no worry of running over them with their own ships.

[Darth evil 906]

I'm sorry but on the weekend i went to a tournament and i took Deathrain with Conner net and Cluster mines and i **** well made sure that i had 2 copies of each mine just in case they stayed on the board. If you can't buy or borrow the required templates then DON'T take them in your list.  

 

this applies to tournaments not casual play.

[droz69 232]

So, for the record, there were others with Kwings there that could have lent him a template.  They did not (heck, there was a dude there that flew 3 kwings.  That list was terrifying, and I faced it round 1.  Was an interesting a fun match, and he had all the tokens he needed, INCLUDING a cluster mine).  Everyone there was playing.  I wasn't about to ask someone else who was playing to take my keys, go to my trunk, search through my storage for a mine token that is burried in the storage case, and then come back.  Nerp.  I wasn't about to spend an extra 5 minutes going out to find it either, it's not my responsibility.  I'm not sure how this suddenly becomes my responsiblity.

 

The primary group of players I play with, we are all rather competitive players.  We play casual games all the time, correcting mistakes, learning from those mistakes, and moving on.  However, every single one of us knows that once it's go time in a competitive tournament setting, we are running by the rules.  That's how we do it, and we hold each other to it.  Yes, we are friends, and sometimes we might forget to do an action, in which case we'll tell each other 'ok, take it, forget it again and I'll eat your first born', or some other type of jesting remark in good fun, but we all understand that after that point, we just live with the mistake.  

 

As well, when I'm in a tourney game, I expect to be treated the same way.  If I forget to make an action or something, I'll say as much, say I screwed up, and then live with it.  I don't tend to ask if I could lay the token or something down.  I'm also inherently lenient on some things, as well.  I've stated them in another post.  I hold myself to a higher standard than those I'm lenient on, because it's the type of person I am (likely part of why I am good at what I do for a living).  

 

I'm not sure how my actions would be considered 'asshattery'.  True asshattery would be me marking a larger complaint against him technically running an illegal proxy list without the required components, and demanding he be disqualified from the tournament because of it, which would have been a completely legitimate request.   I'm not a win at all costs type of person, but I am a person that expects my opponent to be prepared and have at least the components required for the actions he wishes to perform, at a minimum.  

 

The game has grown into a huge following, and these tournaments are, in all honesty, meant to prepare players for the higher level tournaments, such as store champs, regionals, nationals, and worlds.  I would expect myself and my opponent to play at the same level that would be required in any of those tournaments.  There is a reason they are called 'competitive tournaments'.  But, even in those tournaments, I would still be as 'lenient' as I am with opponents at a standard competitive tournament, because, well, I'm not an ass like some make me out to be.  I can't tell the number of times someone has said 'man I forgot to TL like I wanted to' and then tell that person to take the TL as was intended.  Because, honestly, I am OK with it.  And 99% of the time, that's the only mistake they will make the entire game.  I feel it is ok to have some leniency, but there needs to be a line.  There has to be a line with the 'Fly Casual' attitude.  Fly Casual should truly be about allowing the opponent to learn from their mistakes.  My opponent certainly learned from his mistake.  I feel I provided more than enough leniency in that match.  It's not my responsibility if he didn't bring enough equipment for the job.

 

And I should not be vilified for not providing him with the equipment to finish his job.  I would never EVER expect someone else to let me borrow their template for something.

 

By the way, to the person who literally brought up the issue with 5 attack and only 3 dice, seriously?  I've lent my dice plenty of times for such an issue, but moreso, most of the time we just remember the outcome and reroll two of them if they don't ask to borrow my dice.  That's not hard.  

[Smuggler 556]

 

Maybe some people were raised to expect the entire world to bend over backward to accommodate them

I sincerly hope it is the opposite way around. Some people where raised to "bend over backwards" to accommodate others.

I don't think most of the "just lend him your token"-resposes are coming at it from the tokenless players perspektive

"I'm lacking a component, give me yours!"

But instead from the other players perspective

"I see you lack a component, would you like to borrow mine?"

 

 

Mabye I'm just naive though...

Edited September 2, 2015 by Smuggler

[shotbyscott 1,147]

In a friendly game I would have said "hay dude here use mine"..... at the final table of a comp "sorry mate you don't have the template you cant use it"



 

[DailyRich 3,346]

"My build is a Fat Han, but I don't own a Tantive. You should lend me a C-3PO."

That's really what this is. We wouldn't expect an opponent to lend someone any other missing components from their build. Why the expectation to lend bomb tokens?