A funny thing happened in a tourney yesterday. Thoughts on this?

[droz69 232]

Last match.  Myself and other guy, both 3-0 in final round.   High stakes match.  Winner gets $40 in credit to be used for any number of wave 7 ships up to the value.

 

I'm usually pretty good at dodging away from enemy mines and bombs, keeping myself away from the likes of bomb tossers.  Got a lot of practice over the last few weeks doing that.  Fat Dash is usually pretty good at just staying away.  Still, sometimes things happen.  Well, something totally odd happened during this match.  

 

Opponent had a Kwing with bombadier Extra Mun, plasma torp, conner net, advanced slam and TLT.  Warden pilot (PS2).  Fair enough.  I was running Dash and Miranda.  He also had Hobbie with stressbot and Kyle with blaster turret.  Interesting setup, not something I would have played, but I kind of wonder if he got away with a few things, or was just lucky to drop his conner net and get it to blow up every time right away.  Either way.

 

Fast forward a few rounds into play, Hobbie gets rightly removed from existence very fast, without even getting the opportunity to stress (yay for HLC), and now he's got the warden and Kyle.  

 

around round 4 or 5, this happened.  He dropped his conner net, hoping to catch Miranda.  He literally missed by a hair.  IIRC, he said 'I drop the bomb on Miranda'.  I think he was assuming I was just going to agree that it would hit and he would move on.  I saw I would like to measure it, just in case.  I definitely looked like it would hit, but just wanted to make sure.  We made sure to tighten down the bases, lay the 2 straight properly, and laid down the template.  I kid you not it was less than a milimeter away, and did not hit Miranda (This is why I ALWAYS require a measure, even if it looks like it would hit). Talk about wow.  Well, Kyle moved a 1 left bank the same round, and set himself up nice to take that conner net to the face.  I'm pretty sure he was very confident that token wasn't going to be there.  This was the beginning of the craziness.  The remainder of the round saw Dash come in a little closer, and then Miranda getting out of dodge.

 

Shooting happened, nobody died.

 

The next round, he comes around after another slam and goes to drop the Conner Net.  He says 'Drop the conner net and it hits Dash.'.  I once again say 'I'd like to see it dropped, because you never know.  Let's drop the template'.  This is when it turned wired.  He says 'I don't have another template'.  I said 'You have to have the other template to drop it'.  He says 'But the K-Wing only comes with one and it's not fair, and it would go off'.  I think I said something to the idea of well you got to have it, or at least maybe have borrowed it from someone before the game starts (and certainly not in the middle of a match).  I reserve the right to request solid measurement on it.  Went to the TO, TO initially ruled that he can pick up the other one in favor of dropping the new one, but as you can see, that is severely biased against me in the situation, as Kyle is about to plow right through the one on the board, just to be picked up and laid on top of me to blow up.  The TO agrees that is a bad dilemma, and rules that he must have the other template to drop the bomb.

 

Well, oddly enough, Kyle plows through, I move Dash a hard left into Kyle, doesn't move him much, and then the Kwing moves forward 1, drops the template that he recovered after Kyle blew it up, and missed me by as much as he missed Miranda.  Was truly awe inspiring how close those bombs were.  Noone hit the second bomb the rest of the game, and I go on to win it.

 

Now, was I in the right to request this?  I believe I was, and I believe the TO was absolutely in the right in his judging.  You have to have both to lay down both.  My guess is his other three matches, he was able to drop them and get them to explode right away, or perhaps did the same exact thing that happened here and got the second one off.  I don't know on those scenarios.  I only know what happened on mine.  

 

I don't feel I was being unfair.  

 

As a note, he was also playing with an incorrect ship token on it's base, because he decided at the last second to swap a pilot out, but forgot the token at home, and I didn't bring issue up with that (I usually don't have a problem with it, as long as he/she has at least one of the token or card to show they at least own the expansion it comes in, and the PS is the same so there is no confusion).  I let that go, as it's not that big of an issue, and things happen like forgetting something like a ship token, but not having that second bomb template, that's a no brainer.  You have to have that.

 

 

 

[DraconPyrothayan 6,107]

Its not you being unfair, its that Extra Munitions should have come with extra templates.

FFG screwed up, leading to this error.

 

That being said, if I'm a TO, I'm keeping spares of each token, just in case.

[DR4CO 6,234]

It's not based on any rules, but a possible solution might have been to use a template to 'mark' the position of the other Net, then use it to check if Dash was going to be hit. If he was, then that Net detonates immediately and you can set the other one back where the template has 'marked' it. If it misses, just replace the original Net and we're back to square one but hey, at least we tried.

 

And no, I don't think you were being unfair. It's the opponent's responsibility to make sure he has all of the components he needs for his squad, and if there wasn't another Net available then there's really not a whole lot you can do.

Edited September 1, 2015 by DR4CO

[Mace Windu 1,173]

Though I'm usually a stickler for the rules and though you were technically correct, there were several options available that could have resolved this.

 

Firstly, as mentioned above, mark the location of the current CN location just the way all of us do when marking a ship and removing it temporarily making a path for the template when flying ships through other ships, you could then check to see if the net would pop as soon as it hit Dash.

 

Secondly, and this is somewhat more subjective to the exact situation at hand, you stated on more than 1 occasion that Kyle "plowed through" the CN, assuming that Kyle had no legitimate moves that would avoid the active CN you could simply note that it was going to happen later in the turn and place the CN template in the new location.

 

Thirdly, surely SOMEONE in the room could have spared your opponent a spare template, this is the first instance in X wing where FFG hasn’t given you absolutely everything you need to play all the possible configurations of the upgrades in a single pack, and seeing as the CN only come in the K-wing, anyone who bought 1 of each ship from W7 would still only have 1 CN template.

 

Yes it was for a decent chunk of store credit I get that, but I still think it could have been resolved in a different way.

[Parravon 5,217]

As DR4CO said, it's a player's responsibilty to ensure they've got the right gear. As a TO I would have looked at it a little more casually, because that's the way we play around here. If there was no doubt the "second" template was going to hit I'd let it go with just the one, but if there was going to be a need for two templates on the table, then he'd definitely need two templates.

That being said, if one player demanded that both templates be supplied, regardless of whether or not they'd be on the table at the same time, there's no way I could rule against it.

[Stoneface 3,750]

I think you were well within your right to make that call and ask for a measurement. When I first got into X-wing I watched several games from worlds. In one the narrator said it was a game of millimeters. I thought he was being a little too theatrical at the time. Since then I've become a believer. I've missed k turns by less than 1/2 the thickness of a template, hit rocks far too often to be funny and have had my opponent miss a block by the thickness of a credit card. When in doubt, ask for a measurement. At other times, ask for a measurement.

Edited September 1, 2015 by Stoneface

[Buhallin 4,563]

I don't know that I'd say FFG screwed up with Extra Munitions - the reality is they couldn't reasonably provide enough templates to cover everything.  And while it's not actually stated anywhere in the rules, I believe it's the player's responsibility to provide components for their squad.

 

That's not to say I think it was handled all that well.  Whether FFG could have provided everything or not, I tend to think there was probably some option - a borrowed template, or a temporary check as suggested above.  We're all used to buying extra ships to get a card or two, but dropping $20 on a ship you don't want just to get a cardboard token?  That's just dumb.

 

Once the third-party producers get around to making Connor-shaped templates the issue should get fixed.  Until then, expect it from the players but be realistic and try to work around it.

[droz69 232]

Does it suck?  yeah.  I'm not sure if it would have changed the games outcome, but it would have been interesting for sure. 

 

I was more astounded that I had actually managed to not get hit by either one of those templates.  

 

As for picking it up before Kyle hits it, if it were a casual game, I wouldn't have had an issue with it.  This was, instead, a Wave 7 release tourney with a considerable amount of store credit towards Wave 7 ships on the line.  

 

I have a general rule.  I will fly casual, to a certain extent.  Small things, like the ship token being wrong, I'm ok with.  replacing a bumped ship in the best possible way, bumping and trying to find the best position, things that have no real bearing on the games outcome itself, heck, even forgetting a target lock on an advanced sensors before performing a red maneuver, or forgetting the TL on FCS, I'm ok with.  I'm even OK with usually those who may forget to perform an action and realize it before any dice are rolled.  I'm not OK with just not having a component, period, and saying it's not fair that there is only 1 in the package and they needed 2, so let me do this instead.

[droz69 232]

I don't know that I'd say FFG screwed up with Extra Munitions - the reality is they couldn't reasonably provide enough templates to cover everything.  And while it's not actually stated anywhere in the rules, I believe it's the player's responsibility to provide components for their squad.

 

That's not to say I think it was handled all that well.  Whether FFG could have provided everything or not, I tend to think there was probably some option - a borrowed template, or a temporary check as suggested above.  We're all used to buying extra ships to get a card or two, but dropping $20 on a ship you don't want just to get a cardboard token?  That's just dumb.

 

Once the third-party producers get around to making Connor-shaped templates the issue should get fixed.  Until then, expect it from the players but be realistic and try to work around it.

I thought I read in the Tourney rules that players are required to provide all ships, tokens, chits, etc that are required for their list.  I'll look again.

[droz69 232]

This is what I read in the Tourney FAQ:

 

 

Each player must bring an X-Wing core set and any additional components he needs for his squad. This includes (but is not limited to) dice, a range ruler, maneuver templates, asteroid tokens, and a complete Damage deck. A player cannot bring more than one copy of each asteroid token. The TO is not expected to supply any game components to players.

[DraconPyrothayan 6,107]

This is what I read in the Tourney FAQ:

 

The TO is not expected to supply any game components to players.

 

Fair enough.

[TezzasGames 1,014]

The only inconsistent aspect to your story is that you didn't mind the incorrect ship template, but you wanted both of the correct bomb templates.

Either cut your opponent some slack for any/all missing components, or no slack at all. Don't do things by halves.

"High stakes $40 Tournament" I love it when the situation is given some perspective. Awesome.

[droz69 232]

So it's an all or nothing kind of thing for you, eh?  The term 'some slack' is ok, and honestly, I didn't even know till third round when he mentioned something.  Am I supposed to disqualify him and win like that?  I'd rather continue to play the game.   It's one thing to swap out a ship at last second, but to completely make a list knowing you don't have the proper components to play the list, that's next level right there.

[Buhallin 4,563]

Thought it was somewhere in there, but couldn't find it on a quick scan.

 

And I don't really argue with that (as I said).  But we've started entering a phase where FFG has abandoned the "Enough in the box to play with" approach.  There is, at the very least, going to be an adjustment period as people come to grips with the new normal.  We, as players, can work together to help everyone adapt and get used to it, or we can pull out the rule book and tell the TO he can't hand our opponent that template on his table.

 

You're well within your rights to do what you did, but it doesn't make it RIGHT.  <shrug>  Congrats on the $40, I guess.

[droz69 232]

The real kicker was most everyone heard it, though noone let him borrow their token for the attack (no offense, I'm not about to hand my opponent a bomb token he can use against me), and I know there were at least 6 people there who had Kwings that they could have let him borrow it.  

[DR4CO 6,234]

(no offense, I'm not about to hand my opponent a bomb token he can use against me)

 

That says a lot.

[USCGrad90 884]

The real kicker was most everyone heard it, though noone let him borrow their token for the attack (no offense, I'm not about to hand my opponent a bomb token he can use against me), and I know there were at least 6 people there who had Kwings that they could have let him borrow it.

Based on your description, it sounds like he automatically assumed hits when he was playing and you may have been one of the few or only people to call him on it. It's also possible that everybody was tired of his style of play, which is why no one volunteered a bomb token. I have had people question a move and whether I could squeeze in a spot or not only to find out there was more than enough room after actually performing the move. It is a game of millimeters and it's arrogant to assume something is automatic.

As far as the base template goes, he should have had it too. If he's making last minute changes he should be prepared to have what is needed with him, buy it there, or borrow it from someone else.

[Buhallin 4,563]

Can we avoid bashing someone based solely on one side of the story?  It wouldn't be the first time it turned out to be slanted.

 

And based on the side we HAVE heard, this is at best an "everyone was an ass" situation.

[Smuggler 556]

A bit of topic, but...

We have the Hounds Tooth as an other example of not having everything in the box that is needed. You need a Z-95 expantion or Most Wanted in order to use the Nashta Pup.

 

And come to think of it there are things in Most Wanted that you can not use without a Firespray and HWK-290.

 

So it's not entierly unique to not have absolutley "everything needed" to use everything in the box.... in the box

[Alexrogen 9]

I was at this event and it went excataly as droz69 said it did, me and the TO even talked about it when it occured, and I agreed he needed both templates. In getting ready for this very game I considered a list with conner nets but I didn't take that list because I didn't have two Conner net templates. I understand only keeping one bomb template if that bomb is going off at the end of the activation phase, since one ship can only drop one bomb, unless a second ships has that bomb, then it needs a template as well, but a bomb that requires movement to detonate, that has to stay there until it goes off.

I know it sucks that we have to buy everything but at non casual events you need the right cards, right templates, everything, and it's that way in every non-casual event I've ever been to, in any game.

[Tvayumat 3,637]

Sounds like the guy didn't have all the necessary components to play the list he was running.

He probably won't make that mistake again.

You're fine, droz.

[Vitalis 1,012]

OP: you ...showed no sportsmanship at least. That could have been easly resolved by marking that first net somehow. Then give him an ultimatum: hey you can use second net but if it doesnt blow outright it cant stay since you have no second template...Or if that HWK would plow first one anyway just alter a turn a bit and resolve that net then drop another. Sportsmanship come on...it wasnt a regional or national after all.

Well that 40bucks justifies you a bit but still...

 

Rest of tournament: no comments. I can't believe noone had spare conners to borrow for a minute. No comment.

 

Guy in subject: is it really that hard to cut proxy template from cardboard beforehand? Paint it blue and im pretty sure no one at that tourney would say anything. He just came to conclusion: i dont give a f..

 

Deserved to be punished for such an attitude for sure.

 

Good conclusion:

 "everyone was an ass" 

 

Even i know OP had 100% right to behave that way. 

But beeing able to do something doesnt mean we should do it...

 

ps.

(no offense, I'm not about to hand my opponent a bomb token he can use against me)

Hell, it must be pleasure playing against you. If someone had 5attack and had only 3 dice you wouldn't borrow him 2 dice too? And then call for TO when he would reroll 2 of his to compensate?

Edited September 1, 2015 by Vitalis

[Jehan Menasis 1,562]

This particular problem was foreseen as soon as the mechanics for extra munitions were revealed. And is exacerbated because the rules demand you to provide all necessary tokens, which creates the feeling that "FFG is indirectly forcing players to buy extra models", or to buy products from 3rd party companies.

 

IMO, the best solution would be adding a rule which allowed players to voluntarily detonate their mines, something like: "At the start of the end phase, a player can detonate any number of its own mine tokens on the board", for example.

[DailyRich 3,346]

The TO is not expected to supply any game components to players.

 

 

"Not expected to" doesn't mean "can't", though.  If a TO wanted to have extras on hand, I don't see anything explicitly prohibiting them from doing so.

 

Still, I'd rather that be as a last resort, say in a case where a component a player clearly had goes missing or is damaged.  I'd still want players to show up with everything they need to play their build.

[Toqtamish 3,643]

While you may have been within your rights for what you did that does not make it right. As others have said this could have been resolved in many ways that would have been to the betterment of the game itself and the tournament as well. Just because you can do something does not mean you should.