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Cryhavok

RT torpedoes, bommers, and fighters

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Luctius said:


Correct, but during a turn there are two ordnance phases. One for you and one for the opposition. During each of those all ordnance moves, while a normal ship only moves during the movement phase of your own turn.

Edit:
At page 27 of the Basic rules pdf (I'm at work so don't have the original copy with me).
I agree that it doesn't state it very clear(on this page atleast I will check later If I can find a more clear reference).
It does however hint at it when it says that both players can move their ordnance during the same ordnance phase.

Ah, I suspected that was what you meant.

However I think this has more to do with game design and the breakdown of a game turn in BFG. But I don't think it would be that reliable to just assume that since torpedoes move in every ordnance phase, it means that they have twice the speed listed on their stats.

I'd assume the reason why torpedoes move during every Ordnance phase is because players don't move individual ships during every turn but preform actions with every ship in their fleet.

In Rogue Trader the ships don't act at the same time as in BFG since the ship who gets to act first is determined by their initiative roll, and when the ship with the best initiative has moved, the ship with the next highest acts and so on. Meaning that BFG use a more abstract way of describing in which order ships move in comparison to Rogue Trader.

If the situation was real, then both ships would have moved in real time, but since it would be kind of chaotic to keep track of that both games have to divide the action into turns. One could say that the system which Rogue Trader use is more close to Real Time than the system that BFG use. And the reason why torpedoes always move in both players Ordnance phases is implemented in order for all Ordnance to be able to keep up with the game flow (and possibly to insure that players don't forget to move pieces of Ordnance already released on the table top).

To prove my point, imagine if BFG was converted to a system more akin to Rogue Trader. Meaning that ships of different fleets acted in order according to each ships initiative rather than acting at the same time during each players turn. If the game turn still went on as normal it would mean that each additional ship on the board would provide the game flow with additional Ordnance phases. Meaning that the more ships there are on the board, the faster each piece of Ordnance would be. And that wouldn't really make a lot of sense, would it? I mean, why on earth would torpedoes suddenly be able to reach light speed just because there are hundreds of ships locked in combat when they would have moved a lot slower if there were fewer ships close by? happy.gif

So to summarize: I don't think interprating the speed of objects in BFG should be based too much on the game flow of BFG, but rather trying to convert different stats used in BFG to Rogue Trader. Rogue Trader's system for starship combat might be an extrapolation on the rules used in BFG (since some game mechanics are quite effective and also helps provide the correct sense of scale), but the gameflow in BFG is drastically different from the game flow of starship combat as it is described in Rogue Trader. Don't you agree?

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Varnias Tybalt said:

<snip>

If the situation was real, then both ships would have moved in real time, but since it would be kind of chaotic to keep track of that both games have to divide the action into turns. One could say that the system which Rogue Trader use is more close to Real Time than the system that BFG use. And the reason why torpedoes always move in both players Ordnance phases is implemented in order for all Ordnance to be able to keep up with the game flow (and possibly to insure that players don't forget to move pieces of Ordnance already released on the table top).

 

To prove my point, imagine if BFG was converted to a system more akin to Rogue Trader. Meaning that ships of different fleets acted in order according to each ships initiative rather than acting at the same time during each players turn. If the game turn still went on as normal it would mean that each additional ship on the board would provide the game flow with additional Ordnance phases. Meaning that the more ships there are on the board, the faster each piece of Ordnance would be. And that wouldn't really make a lot of sense, would it? I mean, why on earth would torpedoes suddenly be able to reach light speed just because there are hundreds of ships locked in combat when they would have moved a lot slower if there were fewer ships close by? happy.gif

An simple counterpoint would be (assuming the speed of the torpedoes would be the same as the frigate):
A frigate travels in direction X and fires it torpedoes.
In BFG the torpedoes would double their distance relative to the frigate, thus they are, indeed, twice as fast.
In your example the torpedoes would stay at the same distance relative to the frigate, thus they have the same speed.

This is entirely not the same situation.


If I understand correctly, your problem is as follows.
In BFG there were to sides, thus two ordnance phases. Now there are sides equal to the number of ships involved, thus one cannot simple move the ordnance in each ships turn because its speed would be variable according to the number of ships involved.

In BFG the torpedoes speed is 60 divided by the number of ordnance phases.
Thus in theory in Rogue Trader (if you allow to move ordnance in each ships turn)  the torpedoes speed would be 60 divided by the number of ships involved.


In both systems the Torpedoes speed per turn would be 60.

I would not recommend this system though, because it's not easy to play with. My point is though, the torpedoes speed is not 30 but 60 per turn ;).

One advantage of the system in BFG is though, that the to-hit is check multiple times a turn. If you don't do something like this the torpedoes would be able to fly 'through' a ship which is at the same point in time at the same place as the torpedoes, but it isn't there yet because of the turn bases system. This is the problem that the bfg designers had simply and easily avoided by allowing to move ordnance in both players' turns.

Varnias Tybalt said:

So to summarize: I don't think interprating the speed of objects in BFG should be based too much on the game flow of BFG, but rather trying to convert different stats used in BFG to Rogue Trader. Rogue Trader's system for starship combat might be an extrapolation on the rules used in BFG (since some game mechanics are quite effective and also helps provide the correct sense of scale), but the gameflow in BFG is drastically different from the game flow of starship combat as it is described in Rogue Trader. Don't you agree?

This I completly agree with.

 

 

 

I (still...) don't have the book, however I am thinking about an abstract system which does not track the torpedoes itself, but tracks the manouvering the target does relative to the torpedoes. This means that there is no need for multiple to-hit checks. Disadvantage is though that if the torpedoes miss, there s no easy way to track if they would hit another ship.

 

Luctius

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Well, having sat down to work out a standard configuration Lunar-Class Cruiser (BFG living rulebook open on my desktop, RT book on my lap, notepad file with the numbers and choices in), a set of torpedo tubes able to fire a 6-torpedo spread fairly frequently (Command test to order Torpedoes reloaded perhaps - in BFG, they can fire every turn provided you keep passing Reload Ordnance special orders), needs to fit within 8 space (because that's all the room that's left after everything else) and consume no more than 4 power (because I've used the other 74 power from a Jovian Class 4 drive already - a pair of Titanforge Lance Batteries, a pair of Mars Broadside Macrocannons and a Munitorium really sucks up power)... if it's any larger, then it won't fit. As we know that this is the standard configuration of a Lunar Class Cruiser, not having the numbers match up would be a little counter-intuitive.

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Traveller61 said:

No-1_H3r3, any chance of your posting your finished Lunar class for RT?

It would certainly save me a lot of time and effort gran_risa.gif

DW

Lunar Class Cruiser

Lunar-class Cruiser Hull (Speed 5, Man +10, Detection +10, Hull 70, Armour 20, Turret 2, Space 67/75)

Essential (Space 37, Power Used 34)
Jovian Class 4 Drive (71/75 power, S14)
Strelov 2 Warp Engine (12P, 12S)
Gellar Field (1P)
Multiple Void Shield Array (Shields 2, 7P, 2S)
Ship Master's Bridge (P4, S3)
Vitae Pattern Life Support (5P, 3S)
Pressed Crew Quarters (2P, 3S)
Mk100 Augur Array (3P)

Supplemental (37 Power Used, 30 Space)
Mars Pattern Broadside Macrocannon x2 (8P, 10S)
Titanforge Lance Battery x2 (26P, 12S)
Armoured Prow (4S)
Munitorium (3P, 4S)

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The problem with torpedoes is how big they are. BFG lists the average plasma anti ship torpedo at ~200 feet or 90.1 metres in length. Which means they need launch tubes larger than that.

 

Personally I would suspect that they didn't include space on the lunar for torpedoes because they weren't an option.

The lunar has Strength 6 torpedoes in BFG. As the broadside and lance array both correspond in strength to those seen on the lunar (strength 6 and 2 respectively) it is possible to assume the torpedo strength would be the same.

 

Which would require that 8 space and 4 power go into the use of 6 torpedo tubes (or at least 6 torpedo strength). 1.3 space per tube and 0.6 power per tube seems a little odd. If you split them into pairs of 2 racks, that would be 2.6 space per pair and 1.2 power per pair.

 

It seems too little. I would consider torpedoes to take up more room than macrobatteries, well, s6 ones at any rate. That's including ammunition too.

 

The simplest thing I would suggest is an additional addon that costs nothing in space or power but costs SP. More space. Additional rooms etc. Adds 10 more space to the ship but isn't cargo pods or whathaveyou. Call it extended superstructure or something.

Unless Military grade equipment takes up less space and power, it doesn't seem realistic that 8 space and 4 power is enough for 6 strength torpedoes.

 EDIT: The other problem is the nova cannon. The Dominator possesses one instead of torpedoes. It has 12 batteries on either side (2 lots of S6 batteries). They use the same hull as a lunar class really but can squash a nova cannon into 8 space and 4 power. I suppose you could fudge it and say that the dominator has a larger hull than a lunar, but all the BFG cruisers are the same apart from weapons loadout. It doesn't seem any different to the leman russ executioner vs the leman russ exterminator.

 

 

Hellebore

 

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I got to read Helle's idea over at Dark Reign, so I figured I'd stop over here and off my idea:

 


Torpedo Tubes:
Power: 0
Space: 4
Damage: Special
Points: 2
Frigates and Smaller must mount them in the Prow firing arch.
Fires 2 or 4 or 6 Torpedoes per volley, 2 round reload.

Torpedo:
1d10+4
Vaporized: same as Ryza Pattern Plasma cannons
Machine Spirit: A torpedo's blessed machine spirit guides the munition to it's target, and thus has an agility rating.

Poor Quality -
Speed: 7
Maneuver: +25
Skill: Pilot
Agility: 25

Common Quality -
Speed: 9
Maneuver: +25
Skill: Pilot
Agility: 35

Good Quality -
Speed: 10
Maneuver: +30
Skill: Pilot
Agility: 40

And then just made an opposed test between defenders gunneryxturret vs torpedo's pilot+manuver. Since most ships only have a 1 turret rating, this is usually fairly well balanced.

They're rare and expensive on the civilian market, and replacing a salvo should be a major expense. I've been using -1 profit per 2 torps expended. Seems to keep it from becoming gundam missile spam.

Simple, yet effective. Other torps can be added easily.

 

 

It's not BFG: but it's a simply and easy to use system that even the most blockheaded of my players seems to be able to grasp and move along quickly.  I'm still tweaking the stats, though.

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Maxim C. Gatling said:

Good work.  I'm going to read it over and see if I can work it into my Fighters/Bombers rules.

Basically, I think the rules are sound.  As for the "speed" and "range" I don't use squares and they don't match up well with RT speeds.  At a speed of 6 or 8, they won't be able to catch anything smaller than a Light Cruiser.  In BFG, the speed of normal torpedos is the same as the base speed for Fighters, so if you're using my Fighters&Bombers rules, adjust accordingly.

So I'm going to go with Speed 16.  No turning, of course, unless it's the more expensive "Guided" or "Seeking" variety.  I don't seeing this as being "too fast" but just fast enough to catch all but the most nimble small ships.  Who starts their fight at a range of 12" anyway?  You want to close with the enemy, of course, but the trick is not to do it straight into their Forward Arc of Fire....

If you're using the "Tactical Turns" optional rules, then the standard Torpedo would travel 6/5/5 for a total of 16 per Strategic Turn.  Furthermore, the reloading of Torpedos would follow the same rules as other weapons.  It also smooths out the movement for a more "realistic" and less rules-lawyer-loophole game.

Other question, how large is the explosion(s)?  And of course, what is the collateral damage from an indirect hit?  I'll be using the standard blast template...

Proximity fuses?  It should be possible to program the "direct fire" torpedos to explode at a certain distance.  For instance, the firing Ship could set the Plasma Torpedo to detonate 10VU into it's flight hoping that the incoming enemy Fighters/Bombers/Assault Boats/Torpedo Salvo will be underneath the blast template, virtually guaranteeing their destruction.

Also keep in mind that originally Torpedos came in every warhead that grenades came in.  Sure, Stumm Gas has limited uses in the vacuum of space, but if you have one of the old "Blind" explosion templates it could make a very interesting game screwing up lines of sight and forcing new Detection rolls.

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I'd like to suggest that - to represent the massive amount of space the Torpedo Storage would take up, but to reduce complexity in the rules (something I find very important when adding things to games) you give torpedo bays the rule:

Full of Bombs: Torpedo bays represent a true dedication to war on the part of a Rogue Trader, donating part of his precious cargo space to store munitions.  For every Torpedo Bay the trader installs, gain 25 fewer achievement points for completing Trade objectives, but gain 25 more achievement points for Military objectives. 

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