Hounds Tooth title, The Nashta Pup, and Veteran Instincts

[DailyRich 3,346]

 

How can an upgrade that no longer exists still provide a benefit?

If the upgrade cease to exist when the ship is destroyed, shouldn't the same be true for the ship card itself? How can we then get anything, PS or abillity, from a ship card that no loger "exists"?

 

 

 

Because the rules say we do lol The new rules for the YV-666 and it's Z are exceptions to the usual rules.

 

Pretty much it right there.  The Pup has specific wording to address the situation.

 

I  mean, yes, it might make sense for an upgrade tied directly to the pilot to transfer over with the pilot, but then you're getting into "discard these upgrades but not these upgrades" and that's just unnecessarily complicated.  Plus, the idea is that your main ship has just exploded out from underneath you and you've barely made it out alive in this dinky little starfighter.  It kind of makes sense that all you'd have is your native PS and abilities.  You're on your last legs, literally.

Edited September 2, 2015 by DailyRich

[Smuggler 556]

And what happens is that you take the PS and ability from the YV's pilot card. Because the rules they wrote say so.

The Pup do not say to take PS and abillity from the YV's pilot card. It says to take them from "the destroyed ship equiped with the Hound's Tooth upgrade card". The only "card" mentioned is an upgrade card... equiped to a destroyed ship no less.

[InterceptorMad 2,007]

Yeah, otherwise you'd have people rules lawyering to be like "*pushes up glasses* well technically it says the YV-66 and I have two on the board so I'm going to pop out of this one here and not that one"

 

Honestly, the only reason I see this needing an FAQ clarification is people reading too much into it. It seems pretty clear to me.

 

It has to reference that upgrade card so that people don;t abuse it with 2 YV's. In no other part of the game does a ship that is destroyed have it's upgrade cards affect anything. The YV is no different EXCEPT in the rules that FFG wrote to have the Pup work as above. Other than that, it's a destroyed ship with destroyed upgrades like every other ship.

 

Otherwise, you are using upgrades (like VI) that have already been counted against you in the scoring system. How would that work? When would your opponent get the 1pt for VI on their score if the Pup was still using it? Or any of the other upgrades you got on the YV.

 

The YV goes like any other ship, you just happen to have special exception ship that comes out and costs nothing, and happens to use the same PS and ability of the ship that was destroyed. That's it.

[Toqtamish 3,643]

 

And what happens is that you take the PS and ability from the YV's pilot card. Because the rules they wrote say so.

The Pup do not say to take PS and abillity from the YV's pilot card. It says to take them from "the destroyed ship equiped with the Hound's Tooth upgrade card". The only "card" mentioned is an upgrade card... equiped to a destroyed ship no less.

 

 

Remember the Golden Rule, cards override rules. 

[Toqtamish 3,643]

 

 

Honestly, the only reason I see this needing an FAQ clarification is people reading too much into it. It seems pretty clear to me.

 

 

 

 

This.

[Vorpal Sword 14,685]

I am genuinely astonished by this discussion. The only thing that "transfers" to the Nashtah Pup Pilot are the things the Hound's Tooth and Nashtah Pup Pilot cards specifically call out: pilot ability and PS. Those two things "transfer" because they're specific exceptions to the general rule. Everything else, including damage cards and EPTs, goes away because there's no card in play that would cause an exception to that rule.

Edited September 2, 2015 by Vorpal Sword

[Jehan Menasis 1,562]

Where does the problematic word 'Transfer' come from? Oh right... from NOWHERE.

 

When using Nashtah Pup you aren't transfering anything. You HAVE (without any transfers) the pilot skill of the destroyed ship. And which was its pilot skill again? X+2 thanks to veteran instincts.

 

Nashta Pup won't have at any moment the 'Veteran Instincts' upgrade card. The destroyed ship is the one who had it... but, as the other 'Pilot skill effects', Veteran Instincts overwrite its 'natural PS' to the new value.

 

And in the same way, if the Hound's tooth had a 'Damaged cockpit' critical effect (wich overwrites again its PS value to 0) when it is destroyed, Nashtah Pup would also have a PS of 0. Because it simply has the PS of the destroyed ship, not because you transfer any upgrades to it.  

Edited September 2, 2015 by Jehan Menasis

[DailyRich 3,346]

How does a Damaged Cockpit on a ship that doesn't exist anymore affect the Pup?  Its cockpit is fine.

 

Honestly, just adding "printed" in front of "pilot skill and pilot ability" would have solved a lot of problems.

[StephenEsven 632]

How does a Damaged Cockpit on a ship that doesn't exist anymore affect the Pup?  Its cockpit is fine.

 

It doesn't, because when a ship is destroyed all damage cards are discarded.

 

Honestly, just adding "printed" in front of "pilot skill and pilot ability" would have solved a lot of problems.

Unless that was not what was intended.

[DailyRich 3,346]

Looking at the rulebook regarding destroyed ships:

 

Destroying Ships When the number of Damage cards dealt to a ship is equal to or greater than its hull value, the ship is immediately destroyed (faceup and facedown cards count toward this total). Immediately remove the destroyed ship from the play area, discard all of its Damage cards to a faceup discard pile next to the Damage deck, and return all of its tokens to their respective supplies.

 

 

Honestly, I think it could be reasonably assumed that by this definition, damage cards that affect pilot skill would no longer have an effect, but upgrade cards that affect it would.  There's nothing in the rules saying to discard attached upgrade cards, so they're still part of the destroyed ship.

[InterceptorMad 2,007]

But the destroyed ship (and therefore the upgrades on it) no longer have an effect on the game.

 

Damage cards have to be stated as discarded, as when you run out of the damage deck, the ones that were discarded get made into a 'new' damage deck to keep using.

 

Ship upgrades are tied to to the ship and so go away when the ship is destroyed.

 

The FAQ may very well errata the rule to say 'printed' ship PS and ability.

[WWHSD 9,273]

How can an upgrade that no longer exists still provide a benefit?

 

Those cards are in effect when the Pup deploys. The Pilot Skill and the Pilot Ability of the Hound's Tooth at the time it is destroyed are what matter here. It doesn't matter what Pilot Skill and Pilot Ability that the naked YV-666 pilot card has.

 

When the Pup is deployed it is deployed with the current Pilot Skill and Pilot Ability of the Hound's Tooth. It doesn't carry around upgrade or crit cards, it just has the stats that it inherited when it was deployed. If a PS9 Houndstooth with Bossk's Pilot Ability is destroyed, you deploy a PS9 Pup that has Bossk's ability. If a PS 0 Houndstooth with no Pilot Ability is destroyed, you deploy a PS 0 Pup with no Pilot Ability.

 

It may very well not be the intention that the Pup's deployment works this way. I think the correct interpretation hinges on whether "destroyed friendly ship" refers to the the ship that left the game or the card for the ship that left the game.

[Vorpal Sword 14,685]

I think the underlying problem is that there's actually no clear rule for cards that are out of play. (The same issue is what drove early questions about the IG-2000 title, IMO.)

We know this, from the core rulebook:

Immediately remove the destroyed ship from the play area, discard all of its Damage cards to a faceup discard pile next to the Damage deck, and return all of its tokens to their respective supplies.

That's modified by the current tournament rules:

Destroyed Ships

To facilitate calculating Margin of Victory when a match ends, each player should maintain a score pile next to their Ship cards. When a ship is destroyed, the owner of the ship places the corresponding Ship card into their score pile along with all Upgrade cards equipped to that ship (including any

cards discarded during that game, such as missiles, bombs, etc.).

And finally, we know this from the FAQ:

If you have multiple Aggressors equipped with the IG-2000 title and one of the Aggressors is removed from play, all other Aggressors equipped with the IG-2000 title immediately lose the destroyed Aggressor’s pilot ability.

So it's clear that destroyed ships and upgrade cards are removed from play, and that ships and upgrades that have been removed from play have no effect. (Note that this isn't a rule, but a precedent from the FAQ.) That's the general rule to which the Nashtah Pup Pilot causes an exception, because it specifically points at the destroyed ship with the Hound's Tooth upgrade card equipped.

I admit it's mildly inconvenient for my argument that the Nashtah Pup Pilot refers to the Hound's Tooth upgrade card as if it's still equipped to the YV-666. But that doesn't really matter if cards that are out of play have no effect, which is implied by the IG-2000 ruling in the FAQ.

[DailyRich 3,346]

But the destroyed ship (and therefore the upgrades on it) no longer have an effect on the game.

 

Well, they didn't until the Nashtah Pup was introduced.

[StephenEsven 632]

The difference between IG-2000 and the Pup is that the latter supersedes the rules because it specifically references the destroyed ship equipped with Hound's Tooth.

Ships are removed from play when they are destroyed. Ship cards and their equipped upgrades are not.

The Score Pile still refers to all upgrades as equipped. They are still part of the ship. Including Hound's Tooth. Otherwise the Pup would not work.

Just because the upgrades of a destroyed ship usually have no influence on the game, the rules actually don't specify that they are discarded. The Pup is just the first effect to be affected by cards from a destroyed ship.

[Jehan Menasis 1,562]

 

How does a Damaged Cockpit on a ship that doesn't exist anymore affect the Pup?  Its cockpit is fine.

 

It doesn't, because when a ship is destroyed all damage cards are discarded.

 

 

Bad example for my part because indeed, damage cards are discarded when destroying the ship, but in that case, it only means that the Hound's Tooth PS value reverts from 0 to its previous value, thus, Nashtah Pup's PS would be X+2, which is, the PS of the destroyed ship.

 

 

But the destroyed ship (and therefore the upgrades on it) no longer have an effect on the game.

 

Damage cards have to be stated as discarded, as when you run out of the damage deck, the ones that were discarded get made into a 'new' damage deck to keep using.

 

Ship upgrades are tied to to the ship and so go away when the ship is destroyed.

 

The FAQ may very well errata the rule to say 'printed' ship PS and ability.

 

And in fact, the destroyed ship is no longer having any effect in the game. But its PS value is what it is... a numeric value which is X+2.

 

Upgrades, as you very well said, are tied to the ship they belong, but they don't go anywhere when the ship is destroyed. There isn't a Heaven for good upgrades or a Hell for bad ones, nor they "power down". They remain with the ship, and in the case of Veteran instinct, it only means that you have destroyed a ship with it PS increased by 2.

 

Nashtah Pup doesn't care why the destroyed ship had it PS increased by 2. It only wants to know its PS value. And destroyed or not, that is X+2.

[WWHSD 9,273]

 

I admit it's mildly inconvenient for my argument that the Nashtah Pup Pilot refers to the Hound's Tooth upgrade card as if it's still equipped to the YV-666. But that doesn't really matter if cards that are out of play have no effect, which is implied by the IG-2000 ruling in the FAQ.

 

Using my interpretation gets around that though. It doesn't matter what becomes of the YV-666 and all of it's cards after it leaves the board if the text on the Pup is evaluated at the time of deployment while the Hound's Tooth is still in play. 

 

Due to the timing of the deployment instructions, deployment happens at a time when the Hound's Tooth is both destroyed and still in play.

Edited September 2, 2015 by WWHSD

[Jehan Menasis 1,562]

If you can carry over an EPT, then why not any other upgrades. This argument could go round in circles for ages.

You are not carrying over any EPT. You are assigning the Nashtah Pup a numerical value. The same value the Hound's tooth had. How the Hound got that value is irrelevant.

If hound is PS 7, Pup is PS 7... If Hound is PS 300, Pup is PS 300. You can ask the Pup: "How the hell do you have PS 300 without any upgrades?"... And it's answer will always be: "Because the Hound had it... Ask the Hound".

[Smuggler 556]

 

 

I admit it's mildly inconvenient for my argument that the Nashtah Pup Pilot refers to the Hound's Tooth upgrade card as if it's still equipped to the YV-666. But that doesn't really matter if cards that are out of play have no effect, which is implied by the IG-2000 ruling in the FAQ.

 

Using my interpretation gets around that though. It doesn't matter what becomes of the YV-666 and all of it's cards after it leaves the board if the text on the Pup is evaluated at the time of deployment while the Hound's Tooth is still in play. 

 

Due to the timing of the deployment instructions, deployment happens at a time when the Hound's Tooth is both destroyed and still in play.

 

But if we use that, then the Damaged Cockpit card on the Hound's Tooth will result in PS 0 for the Pup. And I imagine many will have a problem with that on a "doesn't make thematic sens" level.

[WWHSD 9,273]

I admit it's mildly inconvenient for my argument that the Nashtah Pup Pilot refers to the Hound's Tooth upgrade card as if it's still equipped to the YV-666. But that doesn't really matter if cards that are out of play have no effect, which is implied by the IG-2000 ruling in the FAQ.

 

Using my interpretation gets around that though. It doesn't matter what becomes of the YV-666 and all of it's cards after it leaves the board if the text on the Pup is evaluated at the time of deployment while the Hound's Tooth is still in play. 

 

Due to the timing of the deployment instructions, deployment happens at a time when the Hound's Tooth is both destroyed and still in play.

But if we use that, then the Damaged Cockpit card on the Hound's Tooth will result in PS 0 for the Pup. And I imagine many will have a problem with that on a "doesn't make thematic sens" level.

Yeah, it would. You want theme? The damaged cockpit was causing a loss of pressure and the pilot has a wicked case of decompression sickness. There, you've got theme. Now do what the card says so we can get back to making pew-pew noises while we play with our plastic ships that move through space on a two dimensional plane.

[Vitalis 1,012]

1. It needs to be faqed BADLY and ASAP.

2. Its just plain stupid theme wise that ept doesnt transfer, Bossk flying Hound is better Bossk, than Bossk flying Pup? Come on... but i agree it makes sense rules wise.

 

But VI needs clarification immediatly. For now in my games i im perfectly fine with allowing ppl to transfer VIed PS to Pup.

[DailyRich 3,346]

The way I've come around to seeing it is this:

 

1.  A destroyed ship discards its damage cards, but, since they're counted for MOV purposes, its upgrade cards remain attached.

2.  A destroyed ship and its upgrades have no effect on ships in the game.

3.  EXCEPT here comes the Nashtah Pup, whose wording specifically creates an exception to that rule, saying, "You have the pilot skill and pilot ability of the friendly destroyed ship equipped with the Hound's Tooth Upgrade card."

4.  This further proves destroyed ships retain their upgrades, because otherwise a destroyed ship could not be equipped with the Hound's Tooth upgrade card.

5.  Therefore, upgrade cards that affect pilot skill would still be in effect, since they are a) still attached to the destroyed ship and b) not technically affecting a ship in play, but the destroyed ship.

6.  Damage cards that affect pilot skill, having been discarded when the ship was destroyed, do not have any effect.

7.  So, Veteran Instincts would still apply but Damaged Cockpit would not.

 

Now, I'd get it if FFG and the FAQ ruled that it's pilot skill as printed, since it makes it a much simpler rule.

Edited September 3, 2015 by DailyRich

[Firespray-32 5,424]

If VI works then Damaged Cockpit works.

 

I'd say neither do, although as Rebel Transport goes as far as to specify Printed Pilot Skill when it doesn't want VI to trigger there's some FAQ room.

[DailyRich 3,346]

If VI works then Damaged Cockpit works.

 

No, because damage cards are discarded from destroyed ships and upgrades are not.

[Vorpal Sword 14,685]

5.  Therefore, upgrade cards that affect pilot skill would still be in effect, since they are a) still attached to the destroyed ship and b) not technically affecting a ship in play, but the destroyed ship.

This is a huge assumption, though. The simplest rule would be "When a card has been removed from play, it has no effect." You're positing a rule instead that "When a card has been removed from play, it can only affect other cards that have been removed from play."

So why introduce that additional complication? The only thing it changes at the moment (that is, barring additional references to destroyed ships) is the VI - Nashtah Pup interaction.