Hounds Tooth title, The Nashta Pup, and Veteran Instincts

[Eruletho 551]

Veteran Instincts modifies the pilot skill of the pilot it is equipped to. The Nashta Pup, when deployed, maintains none of the upgrades from it's previous ship, but maintains the same pilot skill and pilot ability. I'm going to assume that the VI falls off when the Pup is deployed, but other opinions may vary. Any reading on what the official answer may be?

[Toqtamish 3,643]

VI is a upgrade and would "fall off" and therefore no longer apply. 

[Vitalis 1,012]

That's just stupid that EPT doesnt transfer. It should.

[InterceptorMad 2,007]

If the EPT transfers, all the other cards (or at least the ones the Z can still take) should transfer too.

 

But none of them do. You are buying the upgrades for the ship, not the pilot. The ship card has those slots and you bought the cards to fill them. That pilot card (it's upgrade slots and the cards filling them) are now gone. The only thing that transfers (because the rules say so for this situation) are the pilot skill (base) and the pilot ability.

[droz69 232]

Im fairly certain i read the rules and it said the pilot abilities ept transfer. Ill have to read it again.

[MikeNYHC 217]

Im fairly certain i read the rules and it said the pilot abilities ept transfer. Ill have to read it again.

The Pup Pilot card simply says "You have the pilot skill and pilot ability..."

 

So no EPTs.

[Parravon 5,217]

Look at it this way, his ship has just exploded, so he's probably suffering from a concussion by the time he gets to the Pup.

Edited September 1, 2015 by Parravon

[streamdragon 380]

VI is a upgrade and would "fall off" and therefore no longer apply. 

 

Cite.

 

 

X-Wing core rulebook, page 16

When the number of Damage cards dealt to a ship is equal to or greater than its hull value, the ship is immediately destroyed (faceup and facedown cards count toward this total).  Immediately remove the destroyed ship from the play area, discard all of its Damage cards to a faceup discard pile next to the Damage deck, and return all of its tokens to their respective supplies.

At no point does it say "remove the Pilot card from the play area".  Indeed, the Nashtah Pup card wouldn't work if you did so, as then there would be no "friendly destroyed ship equipped with the Hound's Tooth upgrade card".  In fact, by the text on the Nashtah Pup card we are deliberately told that the ship card is still in play and that there are still upgrade cards on it.  Again, the Hound's Tooth wouldn't work at all if discarded everything from the ship when its parent ship is destroyed.  If you remove upgrade cards from Bossk's ship then suddenly there is no "friendly destroyed ship equipped with the Hound's Tooth upgrade card" for you to reference for Pilot Skill at all.

IF we accept that Bossk's ship card is still in play with the Hound's Tooth attached, and we have to for the Title to be usable at all, then we have to accept that other upgrade cards remain because we are never told to discard them.  If Veteran Instincts is still in play, then Bossk's YV-666 ship card is still PS9.  If Bossk's YV-666 ship card is still PS9, then the Nashtah Pup would be PS9 as well.

At no point are you told to remove the cards.  Ordinarily, they would be unimportant because the ship is dead.  Clearly this isn't "ordinarily'.

[cody campbell 361]

The Nashtah Pup has no upgrade slots, so where could it go? Also, as mentioned, it does specifically say pilot skill and pilot ability. I think it's one of those cases of "Do what the card says. Don't do what the card doesn't say." If you think of it that way, it's pretty simple.

[droz69 232]

 

Im fairly certain i read the rules and it said the pilot abilities ept transfer. Ill have to read it again.

The Pup Pilot card simply says "You have the pilot skill and pilot ability..."

 

So no EPTs.

 

No, look in the booklet that came with the ship.  I'm fairly certain it's in the rules there.

[droz69 232]

I stand corrected, thought I saw it in the book.  Sorry.  Hrm.  It would just make sense that the EPT would transfer.  Should get an answer soon on the next FAQ.

[WWHSD 9,273]

I actually think that VI (or anything else that changes Pilot Skill or Pilot Ability) would sort of transfer over. You wouldn't transfer over the actual EPT, but the PS that the Hound's Tooth inherits from the destroyed ship would be two higher than the PS printed on the pilot card.

[Parravon 5,217]

If you wouldn't transfer the EPT Upgrade card, then it wouldn't affect the Pup's new pilot. The VI card went down with the Hound's Tooth. The Pup gets the base pilot ability and PS only.

Otherwise, you could start a whole new argument that the Pup's now worth 1 point because it's got a VI card attached. And that's a can of worms not worth opening. 

[StephenEsven 632]

The destroyed HT still has all its upgrades. Including VI. So you could argue you inherit the modified PS.

I am not sure how I am going to play this.

Because you can take it a step further. What if the HT had lost its Pilot Ability or had PS 0 from a critical damage? The damage carda are discarded when the HT is destroyed. So you get back your previous losses. Does this affect this discussion at all?

[Parravon 5,217]

The destroyed HT still has all its upgrades. Including VI. So you could argue you inherit the modified PS.

I am not sure how I am going to play this.

Because you can take it a step further. What if the HT had lost its Pilot Ability or had PS 0 from a critical damage? The damage carda are discarded when the HT is destroyed. So you get back your previous losses. Does this affect this discussion at all?

If the HT had it's PS reduced to 0, then it would remain at 0 as per the ruling in the FAQ on Altered Pilot Skill. This would imply the same should apply to an altered Pilot Ability also. The Nashtah Pup card states you have the PS and ability of the HT. It doesn't say you have the 'starting' PS and ability.

 

If several game effects alter the pilot skill of a ship, only the most recent effect is applied. For example, if a Green Squadron Pilot equips Veteran Instincts, it increases its pilot skill from 3 to 5. However, if it later receives the Damaged Cockpit damage card faceup, its pilot skill is reduced from 5 to 0 (rather than 2).

Edited September 2, 2015 by Parravon

[StephenEsven 632]

That FAQ does not say that the Damaged Cockpit is permanent. If that card was to be flipped face down or discarded, then the PS would go back to 5 in the example above. And as you discard damage cards when a ship is destroyed, it would go back to its previous PS.

 

The text on HT clearly indicates that the destroyed ship still has all it's upgrade cards equiped, so even though it is destroyed, it is still equipped with VI. And as such, should it not still be at a higher PS?

[Parravon 5,217]

But the ruling still holds that only the most recent effect is applied. And although the FAQ doesn't say Damaged Cockpit is permanent, there's a lot that the FAQ doesn't say. Which is why we ask the questions. 

 

What if the pilot on the HT (with VI) received the Injured Pilot card? His ability and EPT upgrade cards are ignored, right?

But, what if the pilot (with VI, has transferred to the Pup and then receives the Injured Pilot card? One could argue that his pilot ability would be ignored, but because he doesn't have any EPT upgrade cards on the Pup, then his VI boosted PS would remain unchanged. 

 

I guess the big question is when the Pup's card mentions pilot ability, would that include an EPT? Personally, I don't think so. The reasoning is that it's like the rest of the Upgrade cards that may have been on the HT - they've all been discarded. If you can't carry over any weapons upgrades, or modifications, then you shouldn't be able to carry over an EPT.

 

If you can carry over an EPT, then why not any other upgrades. This argument could go round in circles for ages.

 

Has anybody fired off an email to find the correct way this is supposed to work?

[Toqtamish 3,643]

Why do we need an email ?

 

its simple. No upgrades transfer. VI is an EPT which is an upgrade card. Therefore no VI. 

[Smuggler 556]

Why do we need an email ?

 

its simple. No upgrades transfer. VI is an EPT which is an upgrade card. Therefore no VI. 

Because we are not talking about transfering the upgradecards or any other cards.

 

The Pup tells us to use the PS and pilot abilitys "of the destroyed ship equiped with the Hound's Tooth upgrade card".

 

It directly referes to "the destroyed ship", not the ship as it was just befor destruction.

 

The rules tells us to discard all damage cards from a ship that is destroyed, so they can not be in effect on the destroyed ship.

The rules says nothing about discarding upgrade cards when a ship is destroyed.

So it could be argued that a ship with VI still has VI even if it is destroyed. So when looking at the destroyed ship to se what PS it has, VI could well be included. That is not the same as transfering the VI-card to the Pup.

 

A counter agrument could be that upgrade cards not in play do not affect ships at all, destroyed or otherwise. In that case, VI no longer has an effect on the YV-666 once it is destroyed (even if it would count as equiped to it) and so when you look at the PS och "the destroyed ship" it is just the value printed on the ship card it self.

 

I see enough ambiguity here to justify asking the question.

[Toqtamish 3,643]

If VI is no longer there then the plus two to pilot skill no longer applies. 

[StephenEsven 632]

The text on the Pup references the destroyed ship equipped with the Hound's Tooth title. If this is to reference a ship at all the upgrades must still be equipped on that ship. So Veteran Instincts must by the same logic still be equipped in the destroyed ship. And thus the PS is still at the modified value.

 

@Parravon

Yes the FAQ states the latest card affects the PS, but if you discard of flip the Damaged Cockpit  card, then it is no longer the latest card. Essentially you remove it from the stack of effects, and the previous effect is now the latest. Otherwise using Roark would cause ships to permamanetly become PS 12.

[DailyRich 3,346]

How can an upgrade that no longer exists still provide a benefit?

[DraconPyrothayan 6,107]

How can an upgrade that no longer exists still provide a benefit?

Other than Bombs, who are specifically worded in such a way that the Upgrade only deploys the template, which has its own rules while on the table?

Good question.

Still, this matter is likely to be one that is FAQ'd.

[Smuggler 556]

How can an upgrade that no longer exists still provide a benefit?

If the upgrade cease to exist when the ship is destroyed, shouldn't the same be true for the ship card itself? How can we then get anything, PS or abillity, from a ship card that no loger "exists"?

[InterceptorMad 2,007]

Because the rules say we do lol The new rules for the YV-666 and it's Z are exceptions to the usual rules.

 

Usually, a destroyed ship and it's upgrades have NO bearing at all on the ships left on the board. This is a unique situation, and so FFG in the rules said what happens.

 

And what happens is that you take the PS and ability from the YV's pilot card. Because the rules they wrote say so.

 

Yes, we need it 100% cleared up in the FAQ, but I really think it's just going to say 'any/all upgrades bought for the YV-666 pilot do not transfer when the Z is launched'.