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Guess I don't want Descent to have pre-painted minis...

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...not when the base price would be $6.50 per mini.  This would cost $520(80 minis) alone for the base-game!!!

www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_news.asp

I'd rather keep the costs down as they currently are and pay $60(primer, minwax tudor stain/sealer, Reaper paints) and paint all the minis from all the expansions myself!

It is cool that they are toying with the idea of selling pre-painted minis though!

When you look at this, the Descent games with all their minis are really quite a bargain (with or without a discount).

 

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I played Arkham Horror for the first time a couple of weeks ago. I thought it was pretty neat, and was surprised that there wasn't already minis for the investigators.

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You guys are missing the fact that the average mini price is around $8.00 for a single mini. Granted, these are exceptional minis, and pre-painted isn't a selling point for hobbyists, but 6.50 a mini is cheap.

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I would hate to have pre-painted minis. The way Descent is now is fine, except that lieutenant minis aren't included in plastic in the proper expansions as they should be. Having to buy pieces for a board game separately = fail. In addition, pre-painted minis rarely, if ever, look better than unpainted ones. Only very expertly painted minis look better than unpainted minis. I love Arkham Horror, but am not touching those minis with a ten-foot pole.

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The metal Lt minis are great. Much better detail than plastics allow. But of course, non-hobbyists probably don't care about the detail level since they don't paint them, so I see that as a valid argument too.

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pinkymadigan said:

You guys are missing the fact that the average mini price is around $8.00 for a single mini. Granted, these are exceptional minis, and pre-painted isn't a selling point for hobbyists, but 6.50 a mini is cheap.

 

This is a complete fallacy. Sure, some companies such as GW, Privateer press, a number of the smaller boutique manufacturers that advertise on Coolminiornot are around 8.00 or so. But there are far more companies whose prices are far, far lower. Reaper's p-65 line (which is just some of their normal line miniatures with a different metal mix) are only $3-4 average, whilst their normal lines are $5-7. Some are cheaper. Most of the fantasy warriors range, which is available either from EM-4 or mirliton are ~11 bucks for packs of 5, or a little over two dollars a piece. Mega-minis sells almost their entire line for $1.50, though admittedly most of the range isn't great (though they do have some old grenadier casts which are really good). EM-4 also sells the plastic Fantasy Warriors dwarfs and orcs for ~$0.32 apiece (yes, that is 32 cents). Mantic miniatures have just released their line of plastic elves, which retail at ~$20.00 for 20 elves. They have an army deal that is even better. Old Glory does a number of lines of varying quality at really low prices, as does Black tree designs. All those are companies that sell fantasy miniatures, which on average are more expensive than historical ones. Most historical manufacturers sell their minis at ~1.50 a guy, Wargames foundry being the exception (no surprise as they are closely affiliated with GW). 

 

TMP (the miniatures page) is the best place to go if you want to "shop around" manufacturers. I would also suggest one of the larger internet stores, such as the Warstore or Wayland games, to pick up minis as you can buy from a variety of manufacturers, and usually at a discount from retail prices.

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Compairing minis costs between these suppliers though pre-supposes several items which are not necessaraly true.

As an example, GW's figures are highly detailed and at around 28mm scale, Reaper are the same size but not as detailed, although they are still very nice.

Further, it depends on the production conditions, bundled services, etc, etc, as to what the overall product is. Classing each item as just the figure is something of a fallicy.

Regardless, the Decent Lieutenant figures are very nice, but something of a rip-off. I mean, £12 for Eliza Farrow! It's absurd. They are better detailed than the normal Descent figures, but GW prove this can be done with styrene plastics too.

As far as pre-painted goes, I have to re-undercoat and re-paint the figure, which the pre-painting makes more difficult, especially as vinyl is awful to work (in this case strio0 in the first place. As a result, this would detract from, rather than enhance, the price.

 

 

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Slev said:

Compairing minis costs between these suppliers though pre-supposes several items which are not necessaraly true.

As an example, GW's figures are highly detailed and at around 28mm scale, Reaper are the same size but not as detailed, although they are still very nice.

Further, it depends on the production conditions, bundled services, etc, etc, as to what the overall product is. Classing each item as just the figure is something of a fallicy.

Regardless, the Decent Lieutenant figures are very nice, but something of a rip-off. I mean, £12 for Eliza Farrow! It's absurd. They are better detailed than the normal Descent figures, but GW prove this can be done with styrene plastics too.

As far as pre-painted goes, I have to re-undercoat and re-paint the figure, which the pre-painting makes more difficult, especially as vinyl is awful to work (in this case strio0 in the first place. As a result, this would detract from, rather than enhance, the price.

 

 

 

The price point is higher because of the quantity expected to sell, I'm sure. If they had the hobbyist base of Warhammer, they would assuredly use plastics, but as it stands, the cost to produce plastics is much higher initially than metal. The plastics are really expensive to cast and get the molds up and running properly, but then cheaper when enough sales are made eventually. Metals are much less risky on the business side of things.

 

But yes, in general, you pay for quality. The Lt figures are of higher quality than the plastics descent minis, some of us appreciate that and are willing to pay the premium. But you have to remember they are a business, so profits first.

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I hate this forums editing tools.enfadado.gif

 

 

 

 

The price point is higher because of the quantity expected to sell, I'm sure. If they had the hobbyist base of Warhammer, they would assuredly use plastics, but as it stands, the cost to produce plastics is much higher initially than metal. The plastics are really expensive to cast and get the molds up and running properly, but then cheaper when enough sales are made eventually. Metals are much less risky on the business side of things.

The price point is higher because Fantasy Flight has a fairly hefty overhead, I'd imagine, and they probably won't be able to move a high volume of the descent minis. But, the production costs of the LT. minis is really low at least (something like 45 pounds for a mold, and a few thousand for a spincaster, which can be used with multiple molds), it's just all the employees and other stuff drive up the costs a bit. Plus, GW as the established and dominate power in the fantasy miniatures game (along with their huge overhead) set the general price point other manufacturers follow. This isn't the case for historic miniatures, and those tend to me lower.

 

The plastics that FFG uses for descent aren't the hard-plastics GW (and a few others now) use, but much softer PVC. This lets the molds used be made of tin instead of the steel that's used for harder plastics, greatly reducing costs. But either way, I think it would be crazy for FFG to use anything other than metal for the LT. minis, since they are sold separately instead of packaged in a big box.

 

But yes, in general, you pay for quality. The Lt figures are of higher quality than the plastics descent minis, some of us appreciate that and are willing to pay the premium. But you have to remember they are a business, so profits first.

Yep, and so is every miniatures manufacturer out there (a business I mean). All metals are higher quality (well, higher potential quality. A terrible sculpt is still a terrible sculpt) as the soft rubber molds allow crisper detail and undercuts. It's cool if you like them and find them worth the relatively high cost, but they are above average in cost.

Incidentally, don't GW now use a 3-part steel mold allowing for some degree of under-cuts in their plastic ranges?

 

Slev said:

 

Compairing minis costs between these suppliers though pre-supposes several items which are not necessaraly true.

As an example, GW's figures are highly detailed and at around 28mm scale, Reaper are the same size but not as detailed, although they are still very nice.

 

 

This is subjective, and has little to do with pricing of a miniature. I personally like Reaper figures more, as most of the "detail"  GW minis carry on them, since end of 6th, beginning of 7th edition, is a bunch of gaudy crap stuck over the top of them. They do have some nice lines, but they also have some serious duds. Like all manufacturers. Still, not the point.

 


 

Further, it depends on the production conditions, bundled services, etc, etc, as to what the overall product is. Classing each item as just the figure is something of a fallicy.

 [/Quote]

 

And not much to the point of the cost of the figure (28mm human-sized). Yes, some companies have huge overheads (GW, which directly affects pricing), and offer some services, generally if you buy from one of their brick and mortar stores. But the point isn't that some companies have to charge more to make their overhead costs worthwhile, it's simply the average cost of a 28mm human-sized miniature, which is much lower than what Pinkymadigan suggests.

 

 

OK, The forum editing tools suck, and my response to the second point of Slev is stuck in the quotes. As is this line, probably

 

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Sam: I'm not even going to TRY with the forum editing tool...

I think from what you say, we're argiung the same point from different directions.

The point with the price comparison though is that a figure of model X in scale Y is not the be-all and end-all of miniature pricing, which many people take it to be.

GW minis as we have stated, have to factor in the cost of their retail arm, providing free lessons on modelling, playing & painting, plus free organised play and events, on top of the stringent UK regs. Some people complain they don't use this customer service, but such service is what customers SAY they want, and is part of the product when you buy it. GW have no bigger a margin than any other company.

Since metal originating costs are liniar, the production of the Leutenent minis should come in cheaper than GW, since FFG don't have the same overheads. That's why I consider the lieutenants overpriced when compared to GW and to say, GZG who produce in similar quantity and quality with similar levels of product support and, working in the UK, have to cope with the more stringent pollution and labour laws than FFG do being based in the USA. They do, however, come in more expensive than GW, and that really is saying something.

 

 

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Veinman said:

I played Arkham Horror for the first time a couple of weeks ago. I thought it was pretty neat, and was surprised that there wasn't already minis for the investigators.

I was hoping FFG would pull a Talisman and upgrade the game with Decent/Talisman style minis for the investigators and some nice plastic playing pieces like Talisman (money etc.)  But we know that will never happen now!

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Check out the front-page.  They already cancelled the painted minis based on our feedback.

Wise choice!

I hope they decide to upgrade Arkham to have actual unpainted minis like Talisman, Descent, Runebound etc. in the future.  I think they should be standard with a game like Arkham just like they are with Talisman!

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