Merry Spirit + Ithilien Tracker or Spikes

[Mndela 422]

Merry spirit is ready in quest phase.

 

Situation 1:

Ithlien Tracker is triggered and an enemy has just revealed..., if Merry triggers his response on this enemy, what happens? He reduces the threat enemy's printed? or there is nothing to reduce?

 

Situation 2:

Spikes is in the staging area..., and an enemy has just revealed..., if Merry triggers his response on this enemy, what happens? He reduces the threat enemy's printed? or it counts also the -2 threat effect by Spikes?

[Ecthelion III 382]

I'm pretty sure the spikes/Tracker would resolve before you could use Merry's ability.

[PocketWraith 553]

Actually no. Looking at the cards, both Ithilien Tracker and Ranger Spikes trigger on an enemy added to the staging area. Cards are revealed before being added to the staging area, so you could technically trigger Merry in between revealing the enemy and addingit to staging, while it still has its threat.

[Lecitadin 282]

Actually no. Looking at the cards, both Ithilien Tracker and Ranger Spikes trigger on an enemy added to the staging area. Cards are revealed before being added to the staging area, so you could technically trigger Merry in between revealing the enemy and addingit to staging, while it still has its threat.

 

That's how I play it.

[sappidus 531]

Actually no. Looking at the cards, both Ithilien Tracker and Ranger Spikes trigger on an enemy added to the staging area. Cards are revealed before being added to the staging area, so you could technically trigger Merry in between revealing the enemy and addingit to staging, while it still has its threat.

This has now been ruled against:

A follow-up on reveal timing, also germane to "after revealed" effects vs "enters staging area" effects... I earlier triggered Ithilien Tracker ("...lower the threat of the next enemy added to the staging area to 0"). An enemy was just revealed. If I now use Merry to reduce my threat ("After an enemy is revealed from the top of the encounter deck, exhaust Merry to reduce your threat by that enemy's threat"), will I get to lower my threat by the enemy's printed threat, or is that threat already lowered to 0?

If you use Ithilien Tracker to reduce the threat of the next enemy added to the staging area to 0, then that enemy's threat will be 0 when you trigger Merry's response. Those two players cards simply do not combo together.

[GrandSpleen 1,756]

He should still work with the spikes though.

[sappidus 531]

He should still work with the spikes though.

Why do you say that? Ranger Spikes attaches upon an enemy entering the staging area, which the recent rulings are asserting happens before Merry has a chance to trigger his Response.

[shosuko 2,174]

I don't think Merry would work with either, because both Ithilien Tracker and Ranger Spikes create passive effects, and the order is Passive -> Forced -> Response.

[GrandSpleen 1,756]

I haven't been following all of this in detail, but what about the FAQ entry about 'when revealed' immediate attacks?  The enemy is not in the staging area until it completes its attack.  So I would think that Merry's response would be triggered when the enemy is revealed but before it is added to the staging area.

[GrandSpleen 1,756]

I'm sorry, I didn't realize that the Tracker said 'added to the staging area.'  I guess if one doesn't work, the other will not work either.

[shosuko 2,174]

I haven't been following all of this in detail, but what about the FAQ entry about 'when revealed' immediate attacks?  The enemy is not in the staging area until it completes its attack.  So I would think that Merry's response would be triggered when the enemy is revealed but before it is added to the staging area.

I think that this is because it is part of the card's "when revealed" which can actually cause some other changes because it introduces something out of line with the game structure.

 

During the Questing phase when you are revealing cards from the encounter deck there are no action windows between cards, so if you had Eleanor in play and used her ability to exhaust to cancel a when revealed effect of a card, she would be exhausted - but there is no action window to use something like Unexpected Courage to ready her before the rest of the cards are revealed.

 

However - when you add in the When Revealed: Immediate Attack it then gives you the chance to play actions during the defense.  In this window you could use Unexpected Courage to ready Eleanor or take any other actions you may want mid-defense before the Quest phase takes back over.

 

So I think also - if this were to happen - because the card is revealed but NOT in the staging area when it makes this attack but you are given an action window where you could take actions, that Merry could then respond to the enemy being revealed before it has entered play and triggered Ithilian Tracker's passive effect.

The thing is - there is no natural way to respond to a card being revealed before it is added to the staging area because the order is passive -> forced -> response - which means responses wait until everything else is done before they can trigger, which allows Ithilian Tracker to resolve before Merry can without other circumstances.

Edited October 19, 2016 by shosuko

[cmabr002 292]

-

Edited October 19, 2016 by cmabr002

[cmabr002 292]

 

I haven't been following all of this in detail, but what about the FAQ entry about 'when revealed' immediate attacks?  The enemy is not in the staging area until it completes its attack.  So I would think that Merry's response would be triggered when the enemy is revealed but before it is added to the staging area.

I think that this is because it is part of the card's "when revealed" which can actually cause some other changes because it introduces something out of line with the game structure.

 

During the Questing phase when you are revealing cards from the encounter deck there are no action windows between cards, so if you had Eleanor in play and used her ability to exhaust to cancel a when revealed effect of a card, she would be exhausted - but there is no action window to use something like Unexpected Courage to ready her before the rest of the cards are revealed.

 

However - when you add in the When Revealed: Immediate Attack it then gives you the chance to play actions during the defense.  In this window you could use Unexpected Courage to ready Eleanor or take any other actions you may want mid-defense before the Quest phase takes back over.

 

So I think also - if this were to happen - because the card is revealed but NOT in the staging area when it makes this attack but you are given an action window where you could take actions, that Merry could then respond to the enemy being revealed before it has entered play and triggered Ithilian Tracker's passive effect.

The thing is - there is no natural way to respond to a card being revealed before it is added to the staging area because the order is passive -> forced -> response - which means responses wait until everything else is done before they can trigger, which allows Ithilian Tracker to resolve before Merry can without other circumstances.

 

 

Pretty sure this is incorrect and Caleb should have chosen his words more carefully.  I believe the new ruling is saying adding the card to the staging area is a part of the process of revealing it and the card has not been fully "revealed" until it is placed in the staging area.  As a result, "after revealed" effects must wait until it has been placed in the staging area (or discarded in the case of a treachery) 

 

This is how I believe, according to the new ruling, things should happen given an immediate attack:

 

1.  Enemy initiates attack from When Revealed effect

1a. Cancellation effects like Eleanor

2.  Regular actions may be taken during open action windows during the resolution of the attack, but "after revealed" effects are still ineligible

3.  Fully resolve the attack

4.  Place enemy in staging area

5.  Enemy has been "revealed" and now "after revealed" effects may trigger

 

If he is truly saying that "After an enemy or location is revealed, it is added to the staging area." and since that is a passive effect, it comes before "after revealed" responses then say goodbye to using Ancient Mathom on explored locations because both the location and Ancient Mathom will be discarded before you can trigger it.

 

Full quote from Caleb leaves room for interpretation:

 

 

After an enemy or location is revealed, it is added to the staging area. Since Strider’s Path triggers “After a location is revealed…” that means the location would be in the staging area when you play it. As a result, a Ship location would be immune to its effect, preventing you from targeting the Ship location with Strider’s Path.

Edited October 19, 2016 by cmabr002

[PocketWraith 553]

Pretty sure this is incorrect and Caleb should have chosen his words more carefully.  I believe the new ruling is saying adding the card to the staging area is a part of the process of revealing it and the card has not been fully "revealed" until it is placed in the staging area.  As a result, "after revealed" effects must wait until it has been placed in the staging area (or discarded in the case of a treachery) 

 

This is how I believe, according to the new ruling, things should happen given an immediate attack:

 

1.  Enemy initiates attack from When Revealed effect

1a. Cancellation effects like Eleanor

2.  Regular actions may be taken during open action windows during the resolution of the attack, but "after revealed" effects are still ineligible

3.  Fully resolve the attack

4.  Place enemy in staging area

5.  Enemy has been "revealed" and now "after revealed" effects may trigger

This interpretation would be inconsistent with other things I think. Consider enemies with Peril which make an immediate attack when revealed. From the FAQ:

 

"Q: If an encounter card effect with the Peril keyword causes an enemy to make an attack against me, can my friend use his character with the Sentinel keyword to defend the attack?

A: Yes. Once the enemy attack is initiated, it should follow each step of ‘resolving enemy attacks,’ and the action windows in between each step are open to all players."

 

And from the Black Riders rulesheet:

 

"When a player reveals an encounter card with the Peril keyword, he must resolve the staging of that card on his own without conferring with the other players. The other players cannot take any actions or trigger any responses during the resolution of that card's staging."

 

If the enemy hasn't finished being revealed while the attack is happening, then Peril would still be in effect and other players would be unable to take actions including defending with Sentinel. But  the FAQ ruling clearly indicates that Peril is done at that point.

[cmabr002 292]

 

Pretty sure this is incorrect and Caleb should have chosen his words more carefully.  I believe the new ruling is saying adding the card to the staging area is a part of the process of revealing it and the card has not been fully "revealed" until it is placed in the staging area.  As a result, "after revealed" effects must wait until it has been placed in the staging area (or discarded in the case of a treachery) 

 

This is how I believe, according to the new ruling, things should happen given an immediate attack:

 

1.  Enemy initiates attack from When Revealed effect

1a. Cancellation effects like Eleanor

2.  Regular actions may be taken during open action windows during the resolution of the attack, but "after revealed" effects are still ineligible

3.  Fully resolve the attack

4.  Place enemy in staging area

5.  Enemy has been "revealed" and now "after revealed" effects may trigger

This interpretation would be inconsistent with other things I think. Consider enemies with Peril which make an immediate attack when revealed. From the FAQ:

 

"Q: If an encounter card effect with the Peril keyword causes an enemy to make an attack against me, can my friend use his character with the Sentinel keyword to defend the attack?

A: Yes. Once the enemy attack is initiated, it should follow each step of ‘resolving enemy attacks,’ and the action windows in between each step are open to all players."

 

And from the Black Riders rulesheet:

 

"When a player reveals an encounter card with the Peril keyword, he must resolve the staging of that card on his own without conferring with the other players. The other players cannot take any actions or trigger any responses during the resolution of that card's staging."

 

If the enemy hasn't finished being revealed while the attack is happening, then Peril would still be in effect and other players would be unable to take actions including defending with Sentinel. But  the FAQ ruling clearly indicates that Peril is done at that point.

 

 

Good point.  I knew there would be something inconsistent.

 

So...what other interpretation is there other than that Caleb is saying "since adding it to the staging area is passive, it comes before "after revealed" " effects???  Because if that is what he is saying, wouldn't it also be true that Ancient Mathom would not be able to trigger?  Maybe my logic is off.

[shosuko 2,174]

I don't see how Ancient Mathom is an issue - there are many cards that have effects that trigger as / after they leave play.  This is true for any "after explored" action as well as "when destroyed" like Fall of Gil-Galad. The rules allow for cards abilities to be used as they are designed to be used.

 

In order to trigger an action on a hero, ally, or attachment card, the card on which the action is printed must be in play, unless the action specifies that it can be triggered from an out of play state.

 

The reasoning that "since adding it to the staging area is passive, it comes before 'after revealed' effects" is true is because we're talking about the normal rules of the game (passive -> forced -> response).  The immediate attack changes the normal rules and provides us an action window when the card has been revealed but the passive of entering the staging area is held until the "when revealed" task is complete.  Because it adds an action window where the game normally does not have one.  We are still following Passive -> Forced -> Response but this time the passive of "after a card is revealed add it to the staging area" has not been added because we have not yet completed the "when revealed" actions.

 

 

Q: When an enemy makes an attack as part of its “when revealed” effect, is that enemy in the staging area? A: No. Enemies are added to the staging after resolving their “when revealed” effects. An enemy that makes an attack as part of its “when revealed” effect, is not in the staging area or engaged with the defending player unless a card effect says it is.

However - Merry does respond to "After a card is revealed" so it is still fuzzy...

Edited October 19, 2016 by shosuko

[cmabr002 292]

What I'm saying is that we have clear examples (such as Ancient Mathom) that disobey the Passive, Forced, Response timings so being a purist about it with respect to the resolution of revealing cards is an argument that doesn't really work.  The truth is, the developers have said it works a certain way and have tried justifying it, but the justification doesn't hold water in all instances based on the current rules we have.  In fact, I think it might cause more issues than Goblin Patrol.

 

Even if I concede to you that Ancient Mathom says explicitly (or implicitly) "This effect can be triggered from an out of play state" it is completely irrelevant because it gets discarded from the location when the location gets discarded as a result of being explored (both passives).  Ancient Mathom's text says that "After attached location..." and by the time you can trigger Ancient Mathom it is no longer attached so it doesn't matter whether or not you can trigger it from an out of play state.

For it to work, Ancient Mathom also needs text explaining that it refers to the location it was just attached to if you want to be a Passive, Forced, Response purist.  Clearly, the intention is to be able to use Ancient Mathom after the location it was just attached is explored...but if we want to be purists and follow the Passive, Forced, Response timing, we can't.

 

I'm sure it won't be difficult to get the developers to tell you that you CAN trigger Ancient Mathom, despite this, however.

 

 

Responses are always optional, and can be triggered by their controller in response to (i.e.immediately after) a specified game occurrence. [Emphasis mine]

 

(1.18) Explored Locations Leaving Play

 

A location card is immediately discarded from play any time it has as many progress tokens as it has quest points, whether it is active or not. [Emphasis mine]

 

 

So, the discarding of the location (and as a result the Ancient Mathom attachment) both would happen before you can trigger Ancient Mathom because they both happen as a result of the same effect (progress equal to quest points, in this case).  And they both happen "immediately".  But since, the discarding of the location is a passive effect, and Ancient Mathom is a response, we know we have to resolve the passive effect first.

 

I would contend that it makes more sense to prohibit the use of Ancient Mathom than it does to prohibit the triggering of a response that says "After revealed" before adding that revealed card to the staging area.  Because "immediately after" it is revealed (see rules on Responses quoted above), you should be able to trigger after revealed responses.  Nothing in the rules states that "after you reveal a card you immediately place it in the staging area, if able".  Perhaps this text needs to be added to the rule book.

 

Although, this still won't fix the problem with Ancient Mathom.

Edited October 19, 2016 by cmabr002

[krokodiler 24]

Well, Ancient Mathom already has official answer regarding its timing: see this post, question 3.

And its effect is not immediate then.

 

We also have this:

Q : If we play Ancient Mathom on Amon Lhaw, can we draw cards when the location
is explored?
A : Ancient Mathom would've been better worded as: "Response: After attached
location leaves play as an explored location, the first player draws 3 cards." That is
how its effect works. The term "explored" as it is used in the current wording is
essentially short-hand for the above language. For Ancient Mathom to trigger its
ability the location it was attached to must first leave play, either by being
discarded or added to the victory display.
Discarding a location (or adding it to the victory display) when it has progress equal
to its quest points is not separate from exploring that location, it is the very
definition of exploring a location. Therefore, when Ancient Mathom is attached to
the active location Amon Lhaw, its ability will still work after Amon Lhaw leaves play
as an explored location.

(taken from page 4 of alogos' Unofficial FAQ, with source given in French - http://sdajce.forumactif.org/t1623p15-question-un-ancien-mathom-a-amon-lhaw-timing-de-resolution-reponse-officielle).

Edited October 21, 2016 by krokodiler

[cmabr002 292]

Well, Ancient Mathom already has official answer regarding its timing: see this post, question 3.

And its effect is not immediate then.

 

We also have this:

Q : If we play Ancient Mathom on Amon Lhaw, can we draw cards when the location

is explored?

A : Ancient Mathom would've been better worded as: "Response: After attached

location leaves play as an explored location, the first player draws 3 cards." That is

how its effect works. The term "explored" as it is used in the current wording is

essentially short-hand for the above language. For Ancient Mathom to trigger its

ability the location it was attached to must first leave play, either by being

discarded or added to the victory display.

Discarding a location (or adding it to the victory display) when it has progress equal

to its quest points is not separate from exploring that location, it is the very

definition of exploring a location. Therefore, when Ancient Mathom is attached to

the active location Amon Lhaw, its ability will still work after Amon Lhaw leaves play

as an explored location.

(taken from page 4 of alogos' Unofficial FAQ, with source given in French - http://sdajce.forumactif.org/t1623p15-question-un-ancien-mathom-a-amon-lhaw-timing-de-resolution-reponse-officielle).

 

I don't think there is really any debate on the intention behind Ancient Mathom, to be honest.  The lack of consistency in rulings is what becomes frustrating as a player.  Let me provide some examples:

 

During quest resolution two things happen.  The first thing that happens is that you determine if you are successful or not.  If successful, you place progress accordingly.  We have been told there is a response window here for cards to trigger "After you quest successfully" but before you place progress (even though placing progress is passive, I might add).  Personally, I think this makes sense because the response is supposed to trigger immediately after the condition that would trigger it.

 

During the revelation process, two things happen.  The first thing that happens is that you reveal the card.  Then you place it in the staging area if applicable, or discard it if it is a treachery.  We have been told that there is NOT a response window here for cards to trigger "After you reveal a card" but before you place it in the staging area.  Personally, I think this makes little sense because the response is supposed to trigger immediately after the condition that would trigger it.

 

To me, it seems that Caleb is saying that the following is true "Passive: After you reveal a card, you place it in the staging area".  Unfortunately, we cannot be certain because he did not use those words explicitly and the rule book doesn't say that.

 

Let me provide another example.  Say you have a response that triggers "At the end of the combat phase".  Well, passively, the beginning of the refresh phase will happen next.  If we are to follow the recent ruling, we should begin the refresh phase, raise our threat, pass the player token, and ready all our characters before we can trigger that response.  This is pretty bogus, obviously.   The reason it is bogus is because passive effects that don't have the same condition as responses will come after those responses...In this case, the passive effect of the refresh phase starting does not (in rules terms) equate to the following "Passive: At the end of the combat phase, begin the refresh phase". 

 

This is why I find it so strange that we have to wait to trigger "After revealed effects" until it is placed in the staging area.  We should be triggering them immediately after they are revealed.  This should be after any When Revealed effects. 

 

The other possible interpretation of Caleb's ruling is that the card is not fully revealed until after it is placed in the staging area.  As PocketWraith pointed out, this creates inconsistencies in rulings we've received before, so this cannot be true, or older rulings need to be altered for it to work.

 

Maybe there is another possible interpretation I'm overlooking.

 

The worst part is, the ruling seems to stem from the fact that the developers simply overlooked the possible interaction between Strider's Path and ship locations.  Since it wasn't intended that you be able to use Strider's Path on ship locations, they made a hasty ruling.  If no one had asked about Strider's Path/ship locations, and I instead had asked them about Goblin Patrol, I'm sure I would have gotten the opposite answer.  Because, I'm pretty sure they didn't intend for Goblin Patrol's Forced effect to do nothing.

Edited October 21, 2016 by cmabr002

[GrandSpleen 1,756]

Maybe consider that "passive" refers to card effects and not to the game framework.  A lot of you thinking hinges on the "passive-->forced--->response--->action" order of triggering effects, it would seem.  This applies to card effects.  I would never describe "placing progress tokens" or "passing the first player token" as "passive effects."

[cmabr002 292]

Maybe consider that "passive" refers to card effects and not to the game framework.  A lot of you thinking hinges on the "passive-->forced--->response--->action" order of triggering effects, it would seem.  This applies to card effects.  I would never describe "placing progress tokens" or "passing the first player token" as "passive effects."

 

Revealing a card and subsequently adding it to the staging area are also framework effects, though.  So why does this one framework effect get to preempt the responses that should trigger "after a card is revealed"?

 

There is also the framework effect where shadow cards get dealt at the beginning of the combat phase that the developers have clarified to follow the Passive > Forced > Response timings (at least that was my understanding of the ruling).  For example, I believe it is in The Blood of Gondor quest, the players have the option of flipping all their hidden cards or taking another hidden card at the beginning of the combat phase.  This is a passive effect on the quest card.  There is also the passive framework effect of dealing shadow cards at the beginning of the combat phase.  The developers have said the players can choose the order in which these resolve because they have the same timing.

Edited October 21, 2016 by cmabr002

[shosuko 2,174]

Well certainly this game suffers from the initial release rule being horribly vague and the cards inconsistently worded.  I gather it's not the current developers "fault" that the game is as it is.  I don't think anyone disagrees the entire game could use a re-work, whether through slow yet constant errata and rules / faq updates, or through scrapping the game in favor of lotr 2.0 (versioning has become really popular lately).

 

GrandSpleen has a point that the game rules, as vague as they can be, are different from the passive -> forced -> response order of operations, and it's simply that the rules dictate that it goes Reveal -> Add to Staging Area and while cancel and replacement effects can change this responses wait until both are done before they can trigger, it is also subject to the Golden Rule which lets the immediate attack on that card break the game rules a bit for timing...  And then in the Quest phase the rules simply allow for the response "after questing successfully" before quest tokens are placed.  This seems logical that the game rules would say where we could and couldn't respond, even if it is poorly worded.

 

Game rules do tend to be separate from any type of card effect.

 

edit - I thought for dealing shadow cards you always dealt from the highest engagement to the lowest engagement, and only choose the order for ties.

Choosing the order of things "with the same timing" is different then saying they are part of the passive -> forced -> response timing.  All attacks against a player during the combat phase have the same timing, but it's not a passive or forced effect that each enemy attacks, it is part of the game rules, but the player still picks the order.

Edited October 21, 2016 by shosuko