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leptokurt

New Dunedain cards... suck!!!

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So, am I the only one who is pretty much underwhelmed by the new Dunedain cards? I'm talking about TLR and the first two adveture set, but the the other spoilered cards don't make me feel much better about the Dunedain trait. The whole concept of getting benefits from being engaged with enemies sounds cool, but does it work? IMO it doesn't, slaying an enemy or totally avoiding him is (almost) always the better approach (especially when you get a scenario that totally mocks this brand new concept - yes, I'm looking at you, Wastes of Eriador!).

 

I don't see a chance of playing any of these new cards in solo mode. Perhaps the concept works better in multiplayer? Also, I ask myself why they're building this concept around lore and leadership instead of tactics. I mean. Isn't tactics the sphere that should get benefits from fighting enemies? And why are most of these cards so expensive? There are only a couple of allies that cost less than 3. That makes building a themed deck almost impossible.

 

Another problem is that the concepts for Rangers and Dunedain have no synergies. They even contradict each other, ao the player cannot build a deck around both traits. Either it is traps, or it is keeping your enemies engaged (but ok, Forest Trap, you're a good boy!).

 

I am disappointed, I already thought that the old Faramir hero was a low point in card design, but these new cards seem to follow that trend, too. It doesn't help that we get crazy powerful cards for other traits in each pack.

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When they gave us a bunch of cards together with obvious synergy people complained that FFG was building decks for us.  So now it looks like they are spreading the cards out and letting us think we are discovering the synergies they built into the set.  Don't judge until the set is finished.  At this time I agree that the Dunedain trait seems week so far.

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Yeah, Dunedain is a work of progress. I hope that one day it will be as 'completed' as Dwarves, Outlands or Eagles or even Ents. 

Also, it may be frustrating to wait for Dunedain, because Aragorn is of that trait, and he is often used by players (I think).

Edited by Lecitadin

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I agree with you that it feels underdeveloped at the moment, but I'd recommend waiting until the whole cycle is out before casting judgement.  So far my best Dunedain deck has been Halbarad, Sam, and Pippin where you can take advantage of engaging multiple enemies by pumping up Sam and drawing extra cards.  But like you said, this isn't particularly effective in solo and other than the expensive Forest Snare, it's punishing to remain engaged with enemies.

 

As for some of the specific cards:

  • Halbarad I think is the key to Dunedain decks right now.  He's leadership and allows you to engage several enemies at once.
  • Dunedain Hunter is great, especially if you are using Mablung, Halbarad, or Pippin. 
  • I love playing Ranger Summons.  Sometimes it's a wasted card and it's value is minimal in solo, but it's so much fun.  Can be effective in decks with scrying.
  • Weather Hills Watchman, Sarn Ford Sentry, East Road Ranger, and Warden of Annuminas are currently too expensive.  If they release more cards that function like Forest Snare, these guys might become affordable via Heir of Valandil.
  • Ranger of Cardolan is decent.  I'm not sure about his ambush ability (like a worse version of feint), but at least he is neutral so his cost is more manageable.
  • Descendants of Kings has the potential to be very strong.  Even if you are only readying 2 characters, that can be really strong especially if you have some signals on Halbarad.

Long story short, I'm hoping there are unspoiled cards in the remaining 4 APs that help you remain engaged with enemies.  At that point Dunedain could be strong in multiplayer and at least average in solo.

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I know what you mean.  I'm telling myself I dont want to fully judge the trait until the whole cycle is released, but my very initial concern when we got news about lost realm and the dunedain was if the goal is to keep all these enemies engaged with us, how are we going to safely and consistently defend all of them? That answer still hasnt really revealed itself. (although the new event descendant of kings is a step in the right direction for this).  I think the bigger issue isnt so much how dunedain cards "suck" (which i dont believe they do) but that theres a discrepancy between how that archeytpe revolves and how we're equipped to handle it

 

And by discrepancy and what we're equipped for, i mean I personally feel that between Willpower, Attack, and Defense...Defense is the most rare.  Since I dont have anything better to do tonight, after i wrote that last sentence I went on our friendly neighborhood hall of beorn search engine and totaled the stats of every hero we have so far (making a few presumptions like the stat bonuses for Elladan and Elrohir and counting tactics Merry as 1 attack since thats the least possible he could have despite having a 0 printed). The totals were as follows:

Willpower: 114

Attack: 125

Defense: 112

So Defense is literally is the rarest stat (among heroes) tho not by much...unlike willpower and attack however, Defense is only used by one character at a time against a single enemy.  I know this is an obvious point for anyone who has played the game even once, but to drive the point home,  a willpower of 2 on a hero isnt considered a bad stat since it can be part of a cumulative total of all the characters contributing to the 1 quest.  Attack of 2 is ok once again since you can have several characters gang up to ensure you can kill that 1 nasty enemy.  A defense of 2 however is really not that great.  No other characters can help that character defend (unless you use that core tactics event no one ever plays) and between the strong enemies we have now, terrible shadow cards, and all the other direct damage effects the encounter deck deals between treacheries and archery, that character can probably only take 1 or 2 hits before dying.  Going back to all our heroes, there are only 8 of our 62 heroes who have a defense of 3 or higher (22 with with attack of 3 or higher and also 8 with willpower of 3 or higher).  

 

I think Dunedain also looks bad in comparison to the other traits that has gotten some more fleshing out recently like Ents which are just absolutely amazing, some Rohan with the last two saga expansions, and even the victory display mechanic which Rossiel has seemingly turned into an interesting and viable gameplay option.

 

Lastly I dont mind that the Dunedain dont feel all there (yet...hopefully) because I truly appreciate that the designers have created archetypes and factions that provide unique and different ways of playing instead of just straight powercreep (Ents are trying to prove me wrong on that point tho)

Edited by Pharmboys2013

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When they gave us a bunch of cards together with obvious synergy people complained that FFG was building decks for us.  So now it looks like they are spreading the cards out and letting us think we are discovering the synergies they built into the set.  Don't judge until the set is finished.  At this time I agree that the Dunedain trait seems week so far.

I wouldn't go that far to call myself "the people", and I didn't complained, I merely stated that I did not liked that approach.

 

And I am currently pretty happy with the Dunedain stuff we were getting. I can see the potential, and there is definetely something going on already. 

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I agree that the Dúnedain archetype is not quite there yet, at least for solo, but I'm hopeful it will be after this cycle is complete. In Battle of Carn Dum we'll get a new Dunadan hero and in Dread Realm we'll get that Leadership weapon.

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  • Weather Hills Watchman, Sarn Ford Sentry, East Road Ranger, and Warden of Annuminas are currently too expensive.  If they release more cards that function like Forest Snare, these guys might become affordable via Heir of Valandil.
  • Ranger of Cardolan is decent.  I'm not sure about his ambush ability (like a worse version of feint), but at least he is neutral so his cost is more manageable.

Ranger and Warden are debatable, but the Watchman and Sentry are definitely not too expensive. The Watchman is a pretty standard statline for 2 Ld resources and a potentially useful ability, while the Sentry is good cost-to-willpower for Lore and also has a potentially useful ability.

And in what way is Range of Cardolan's ability like Feint? :huh:

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Wholeheartedly agree. I love the dunedain theme and their strategy makes sense with the lore. They just don't have what it takes to defend all those enemies they're supposed to be engaging. If anything the ithilien rangers look like they'll be the ones to play with damrod releasing.

Edited by Iron Lung

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  • Weather Hills Watchman, Sarn Ford Sentry, East Road Ranger, and Warden of Annuminas are currently too expensive.  If they release more cards that function like Forest Snare, these guys might become affordable via Heir of Valandil.
  • Ranger of Cardolan is decent.  I'm not sure about his ambush ability (like a worse version of feint), but at least he is neutral so his cost is more manageable.

Ranger and Warden are debatable, but the Watchman and Sentry are definitely not too expensive. The Watchman is a pretty standard statline for 2 Ld resources and a potentially useful ability, while the Sentry is good cost-to-willpower for Lore and also has a potentially useful ability.

And in what way is Range of Cardolan's ability like Feint? :huh:

I think the Sentry seems too expensive because I'm always using my lore resources for the Forest Snares.  Watchman isn't too bad, but he's more or less a Guard of the Citadel which is never played anymore.

 

Ranger of Cardolan is like a feint because you pay one resource, have him block an attack, then he goes away.  So you are paying one card and one resource to block an attack.  You could use him to attack (or possibly both with Descendants of Kings), but I think most of the time he would be blocking.  It's worse than feint because you still have to deal with attacking effects and shadow cards and you can only use it to block enemies engaged with you.

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  • Weather Hills Watchman, Sarn Ford Sentry, East Road Ranger, and Warden of Annuminas are currently too expensive.  If they release more cards that function like Forest Snare, these guys might become affordable via Heir of Valandil.
  • Ranger of Cardolan is decent.  I'm not sure about his ambush ability (like a worse version of feint), but at least he is neutral so his cost is more manageable.

Ranger and Warden are debatable, but the Watchman and Sentry are definitely not too expensive. The Watchman is a pretty standard statline for 2 Ld resources and a potentially useful ability, while the Sentry is good cost-to-willpower for Lore and also has a potentially useful ability.

And in what way is Range of Cardolan's ability like Feint? :huh:

I think the Sentry seems too expensive because I'm always using my lore resources for the Forest Snares.  Watchman isn't too bad, but he's more or less a Guard of the Citadel which is never played anymore.

 

Ranger of Cardolan is like a feint because you pay one resource, have him block an attack, then he goes away.  So you are paying one card and one resource to block an attack.  You could use him to attack (or possibly both with Descendants of Kings), but I think most of the time he would be blocking.  It's worse than feint because you still have to deal with attacking effects and shadow cards and you can only use it to block enemies engaged with you.

 

 

You can make him better than feint in the right deck though. This guys has done wonders for decks involving A Very Good Tale.

 

1. Engage an enemy

2. Put down 2 Rangers of Cardolan for 2 resources

3. Block/attack with them

4. Ready them in the refresh phase and use them for A Very Good Tale before they come back to your hand

 

You block 2 attacks and get up to 8 resources worth of allies for the cost of 2. It actually works well in Dunedain decks with their high cost allies. 

Edited by Seastan

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Sure, you can use them for a Very Good Tale (assuming they don't die while blocking).  I was just giving a 1 sentence opinion and didn't get into every possible use.  It would be nice if they returned to hand instead of getting shuffled into the deck.

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When they gave us a bunch of cards together with obvious synergy people complained that FFG was building decks for us.  So now it looks like they are spreading the cards out and letting us think we are discovering the synergies they built into the set.  Don't judge until the set is finished.  At this time I agree that the Dunedain trait seems week so far.

I wouldn't go that far to call myself "the people", and I didn't complained, I merely stated that I did not liked that approach.

 

And I am currently pretty happy with the Dunedain stuff we were getting. I can see the potential, and there is definetely something going on already.

Well you can take all the credit if you want, but there were a number of people who didn't like it and we're pretty explicit about it.

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I agree that the Watchman is not overcosted, the Sentry isn't really too bad either. Warden is for sure and Ranger is not expensive but simply too vanilla without his ability (which isn't the best either, if he went back to hand it would be far stronger, having him shuffled back into your deck makes this ability eh).

 

I think that because you will more or less definitely have Heir of Valandil in a Dunedain deck and it can reduce the cost of an ally up to 3 or more if you have a handful of engaged enemies (usually this won't be more than one or two though I think) they are making all dunedain allies carefully with this attachment in mind which is unfortunate because it means they can't be too cheap or Heir will make them even cheaper and a bit too strong so instead we are seeing allies that are potentially overcosted (or at the least definitely not cheap/undercosted) without Heir but very playable if Heir reduces their cost even just by a single point. 

 

I actually really dislike the card Heirs of Valandil as instead of just reducing cost by 1 (for one ally a turn) like O Lorien it can reduce cost by 3 or 4 and make an ally free which means their cost when not using Heir of Valandil needs to be far more carefully looked at and decided upon. In a way they need to be overcosted so Heir will not make them way too cheap.

Just my two cents. I agree that dunedain are fairly weak (except for certain cards which shine, Dunedain Hunter, Descendants of Kings, Halbarad to an extent) as they are now but they will still be getting a handful of cards and could shape up nicely. 
It is definitely nice to have more trait mechanics and a new deck type that is slowly emerging even if it is a little weak so far.

Look at ents, we got Booming Ent and Wandering Ent way back and as good as they can be people were divided, now ents are ridiculously strong. 

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I do agree that the Dunedain playstyle seems counter intuitive to success (you want your enemies dead, not sticking around), but so did Silvans early on (you want your allies in play not in your hand).

 

We are only at 2/6 APs for the cycle. To put that in the perspective of the Ringmaker cycle, it'd be like building a Silvan deck without Haldir, O Lorien, Galadriel, and many other allies/events. Maybe we just need to be patient.

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  • Weather Hills Watchman, Sarn Ford Sentry, East Road Ranger, and Warden of Annuminas are currently too expensive.  If they release more cards that function like Forest Snare, these guys might become affordable via Heir of Valandil.
  • Ranger of Cardolan is decent.  I'm not sure about his ambush ability (like a worse version of feint), but at least he is neutral so his cost is more manageable.

Ranger and Warden are debatable, but the Watchman and Sentry are definitely not too expensive. The Watchman is a pretty standard statline for 2 Ld resources and a potentially useful ability, while the Sentry is good cost-to-willpower for Lore and also has a potentially useful ability.

And in what way is Range of Cardolan's ability like Feint? :huh:

I think the Sentry seems too expensive because I'm always using my lore resources for the Forest Snares.  Watchman isn't too bad, but he's more or less a Guard of the Citadel which is never played anymore.

 

Ranger of Cardolan is like a feint because you pay one resource, have him block an attack, then he goes away.  So you are paying one card and one resource to block an attack.  You could use him to attack (or possibly both with Descendants of Kings), but I think most of the time he would be blocking.  It's worse than feint because you still have to deal with attacking effects and shadow cards and you can only use it to block enemies engaged with you.

 

The reason Guard of the Citadel is never played any more is because he has no ability. Add an ability to that statline and you get the Naith Guide, who gets played a lot (and has one less hit point, which can be quite relevant now). The Watchman's ability has less general use than the Guide, but if you build a deck somewhat around signals, it's great. As to the Sentry, if I'm intending to Forest Snare my enemies, I'll make sure to have plenty of Lore resources, quite possibly putting Steward on a Lore hero. If I don't have that many Lore resources, I won't use the Snares, but might well still keep the Sentry.

 

But that's a gross oversimplification of the ability, especially given that we have quite a few ways of engaging enemies outside of the encounter phase to give him even more flexibility to go with his well-balanced stats.

 

 

The Warden of Annuminas, on the other hand, has two big issues from my perspective. One is that he has to compete with the Northern Tracker - same cost, comparable stats, much easier ability to make use of. The other is that his big thing is supposed to be gaining willpower, but he starts at 0. I have the same difficulty with the Harbour Master - it means you really need to focus very hard on triggering that boost to get good use out of it and ensure you wouldn't be better off just using the other, non-variable, stats. If the Warden had a base willpower of 2, he could be great, and actually provide more credible competition for the Tracker when you want straight up willpower rather than location control. But as it is, given the 3 card limit, without help from other decks you can get 3 safe snared enemies, and you need that full 3 just to make the Warden's ability more worthwhile than his combat stats.

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I would like to discuss that with you. Can you provide some specific analysis to a couple of cards you find most underwhelming?

Well, I don't sit in a lab, so you won't get a deeper analysis. However, I played a couple of games in which these new cards didn't work out that well.

 

Halbarad is a hero that I actually like. He can solve a lot of the problems by attacing one or two Dunedain Warnings.

 

Tactics Aragorn is built to destroy enemies, not to keep them around. Besides he is the weakest version of Aragorn published so far.

 

Weatherhills Watchman ain't too bad, but he's not very useful either. Especially when you want to pay Sword that was Broken or Faramir first.

 

Heir of Valandil isn't worth the money. Not sure why it is a two cost card?

 

Sarn Ford Sentry is ok, but expensive. However, he is one of the few allies that offers 2 WP, so including him is a must.

 

East Road Ranger is just mediocre, her special ability isn't worth the price.

 

Ranger of Cardolan is one of the cooler cards, as his special ability indeed fuels the Dunedain trait.

 

Descendant of Kings is an ok card, but we already have a lot of readying effects available.

 

Ranger of the North is too dependant on luck and more useful for multiplayer or small encounter decks.

 

Gimli is an ally who fits nicely into the theme. Unfortunatly he is not Dunedain...

 

 

And so on...

 

 

The problem to me is that the new cards are not good enough to handle the enemies engaged with you. If you use your heroes to block, you loose too much WP - the allies don't offer a lot in this department. What I miss is some cheap chump blockers. The other problem is that it takes too much time to build your forces. Forest Snare is a killer in this deck, but it already costs 3 resources. That way you are stalling your progress even more.

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I don't think there's much point in bashing a trait that hasn't been fully developed. Silvan didn't become viable until the whole cycle was out, and now it's one of the strongest archetypes around. We haven't exactly seen much Noldor so far, for a cycle that promises to make that playable. I'm expecting lots of elf goodness in the latter half of the cycle. For comparison: there are 16 Silvan allies including Legolas, but only 13 Noldor (and two of them are Elrond and Galadriel, who I vastly prefer as heroes) and 12 Dúnedain allies.

 

Tactics Aragorn is built to destroy enemies, not to keep them around. Besides he is the weakest version of Aragorn published so far.

Disagree. Tactics Aragorn is phenomenal in a combat-focused deck. I think Loragorn is the most powerful version, followed by Tactics.

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Well, OK, let's compare our notes on those cards then:

 

Halbarad is cool indeed. Action advantage and innate synergy with all the Dunedain stuff.

 

Tactics Aragorn works fine with the Dunedain syngery from my standpoint. You swap out enemies, keeping roughly the same counter of them in your engagement. I don't quite get why you consider him the weakest, he seems pretty strong to me.

 

Weatherhill Watchman is pretty good. He can make Ranger Summons happen sooner, he also can fetch some Warnings and stuff, if you're running any. And his stat block is regular for a 2-cost Leadership ally. Certainly not bad.

 

Heir of Valandil is not worth the money if you can't consistently keep enemies engaged. If you can, however, then it worth every bit spent on it.

 

Sarn Ford Sentry is super cute <3 She's also a decent quester and gives you cards if you happen to have some friends around :) What's not to like?

 

East Road Ranger is funny, because her title says ranger, but she's actually a scout. Seriously, she has a decent stats for her cost, plus you get a buttload of willpower if you get involved in any sidequests. Which are a lot in this new cycle, plus you can play them yourself, which is not to be overlooked either.

 

Ranger of Cardolan is amazing. He has extremely good stats for his cost and being neutral, and to top it off, he has extremely useful ability.

 

Descendants of Kings is an amazing card an is unrivaled by anything currently in the game. If you're using it, you'll probably have at least 2 Dunedain heroes around. All Dunedain heroes have from decent to strong stats, which is a key point here. Plus, you're paying only 1 resource for this. 

 

Yeah, Ranger Summons is a gamble. I advise including Shadow of the Past to make is less of a gamble.

 

Yeah, Gimli is not Dunedain, but I can't see how including 1-2 copies of him would hurt your Dunedain deck :)

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Yeah, Dunedain is a work of progress. I hope that one day it will be as 'completed' as Dwarves, Outlands or Eagles or even Ents. 

Also, it may be frustrating to wait for Dunedain, because Aragorn is of that trait, and he is often used by players (I think).

 

Your avatar is very ugly, man

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I'm finding that I enjoy including some of the Dunedain cards in my other decks. They work especially well with the Gondor Rangers, actually, especially Mablung and Damrod. Hobbits, too.

Even if the trait isn't ready yet for just sticking all the Dunedain cards together in a single deck, I'm finding them to be a useful "splash trait".

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I don't mind to wait still more dunedain cards making the trait more convincent. We waited for silvan trait around 3 years.

 

PD: i love when a useless cards become usefull cards when new ones with same trait foment old ones making them better. For example, Tracker Silvan, Son of Arnor...

Edited by Mndela

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Today's announcement answers many questions in my mind. The pace we have been receiving cards for both the Noldor and Dunedain hasn't really been high enough to fully develop those traits. We have been receiving a lot of cards that probably should have gone into the ToS box, but wouldn't fit. So now we learn we are staying north and with the Dunedain & Noldor themes. It might take a while, but we're going to get there.

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