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Vorpal Sword

Twin Laser Turrets: Why they're scary, and how you can fight back.

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(*) Deploy last, move last, and shoot first. A list with four TLTs has severely limited its pilot skill. A Rebel TLT list has at least three ships at PS2, and a Scum TLT list has at least three ships on PS1. That's an easy bid to beat, and because the TLT's donut hole makes it sensitive to positioning, it's a very good idea to outbid them.

 

Thats not true. You can have two Gold-Squadron Pilots with TLT, one Gray Squadron with TLT, plus Roark Garnet with TLT. That means 2 PS 12, one PS 4 and one PS 2.

You can even upgrade to:

 

Roark Garnet, TLT

Rebel Operative, TLT

Gold Squadron Pilot, TLT

Gray Squadron Pilot, R2-D6, Swarm Tactics, TLT

 

That means 3 attacks at PS12, and one at PS2.

 

EDIT: The movement still happens at 2*PS2 and 2*PS4.

 

But its been a good read!

Edited by MrkvChain

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(*) Deploy last, move last, and shoot first. A list with four TLTs has severely limited its pilot skill. A Rebel TLT list has at least three ships at PS2, and a Scum TLT list has at least three ships on PS1. That's an easy bid to beat, and because the TLT's donut hole makes it sensitive to positioning, it's a very good idea to outbid them.

Thats not true. You can have two Gold-Squadron Pilots with TLT, one Gray Squadron with TLT, plus Roark Garnet with TLT. That means 2 PS 12, one PS 4 and one PS 2.

You can even upgrade to:

 

Roark Garnet, TLT

Rebel Operative, TLT

Gold Squadron Pilot, TLT

Gray Squadron Pilot, R2-D6, Swarm Tactics, TLT

 

That means 3 attacks at PS12, and one at PS2.

 

But its been a good read!

This is brutally hilarious. Still has a few problems since high-HP would potentially survive ≤8 hits and punch a ship, at which point they could shut the combo down, but as an alpha-strike 8 TLT attacks is definitely scary even to tanked squints.

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Thrusters?

They're not once per round, they're reliable (more so than greens) and in the event that an opponent pushes 3 crits through some silly bad defense roll, it's still one damage max.

Tlts are far more reliable than most conventional attacks with thrusters involved, but thrusters can really stonewall them (esp unmodded shots)

On the flip side, tlt fans invest in Conner's . conners break up enemy approaches, break open turtled ships like soontir, and overall just compliment tlt exceptionally well while also screwing over both pillars of the current meta :)

I've found thruster ships otherwise exceptionally difficult to crack, as well as ptl + r2-d2 e-wings. Without thrusters though, high value targets such as Vader flood with surprising ease.

Edited by ficklegreendice

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Step 1.) Fly literally anything except a 2 ship list. Even then Dual IG's don't seem to bad against them.

Step 2.) Close to range one ASAP and concentrate fire with your swarm or BBBB(Z)/Panic Attack or 6 A Wings, 5x Autoceptors, etc.

3.) Bids to 3+ PS. 7x Obsidian +7x TIE MK II comes to mind. 4x Dagger Squadron and 4x Enhanced scopes lol?

Step 4.) Show up to the game day with your counter TLT list and have everyone still play Turrets anyways.

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I think staying at range 3 is a legit strategy if you have the moves to pull it off. The individual TLT ship fights well at range 3, but the formation does not (and we're talking about massed TLTs, here, not 1 or 2 in a squad). If you can control range better, you can engage only one or two ships at the edges, making for a very unfair fight, because cheap TLT carriers cannot maneuver well once you're in position.

In short:

Going head to head with TLTs gives you a chance to shoot for the range 1 gap and get unopposed shots.

Attacking from a flank or rear gives you an opportunity to control range and engage only part of the opposing squad each turn.

Either of these approaches with ships that have even modest abilities to modify movement will be advantageous.

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Excellent write-up!  Both informative and well written, and also brought about some excellent discussion.  All of it helps the newbie pilot (me) understand both the meta as it currently stands, and the direction it can be expected to take in the short-term as the new ships start showing up on tournament tables.  What this forum is all about, so thanks!

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I, for one, welcome our new Twin Laser Turret overlords.

I worry they're going to make Brobots even more prominent in the meta, because they might chase away some of the high-PS arc-dodgers that the Aggressors don't like seeing. But if it's a choice between endless fat turrets and quirky low-PS TLT swarms I know which one I'd enjoy flying against more.

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(*) Deploy last, move last, and shoot first. A list with four TLTs has severely limited its pilot skill. A Rebel TLT list has at least three ships at PS2, and a Scum TLT list has at least three ships on PS1. That's an easy bid to beat, and because the TLT's donut hole makes it sensitive to positioning, it's a very good idea to outbid them.

 

Thats not true. You can have two Gold-Squadron Pilots with TLT, one Gray Squadron with TLT, plus Roark Garnet with TLT. That means 2 PS 12, one PS 4 and one PS 2.

You can even upgrade to:

 

Roark Garnet, TLT

Rebel Operative, TLT

Gold Squadron Pilot, TLT

Gray Squadron Pilot, R2-D6, Swarm Tactics, TLT

 

That means 3 attacks at PS12, and one at PS2.

I'm confused by this. Why would the first list have 2 ships at PS 12 and why would the second have 3? Roark makes one ship (which also can't be himself) PS 12.

So the first list could fire at 12/4/4/2 at best, and the second could do 12/12/4/2. Still decent, but either way, kill Roark first. He's the most fragile TLT anyway.

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(*) Deploy last, move last, and shoot first. A list with four TLTs has severely limited its pilot skill. A Rebel TLT list has at least three ships at PS2, and a Scum TLT list has at least three ships on PS1. That's an easy bid to beat, and because the TLT's donut hole makes it sensitive to positioning, it's a very good idea to outbid them.

 

Thats not true. You can have two Gold-Squadron Pilots with TLT, one Gray Squadron with TLT, plus Roark Garnet with TLT. That means 2 PS 12, one PS 4 and one PS 2.

You can even upgrade to:

 

Roark Garnet, TLT

Rebel Operative, TLT

Gold Squadron Pilot, TLT

Gray Squadron Pilot, R2-D6, Swarm Tactics, TLT

 

That means 3 attacks at PS12, and one at PS2.

I'm confused by this. Why would the first list have 2 ships at PS 12 and why would the second have 3? Roark makes one ship (which also can't be himself) PS 12.

So the first list could fire at 12/4/4/2 at best, and the second could do 12/12/4/2. Still decent, but either way, kill Roark first. He's the most fragile TLT anyway.

 

 

Upps. Seems I was wrong, you're right, it's two ships at PS 12.

 

But since TLT says attack twice, it's still four attacks at PS 12 :P

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Does anyone think that a single TLT in list (say, Jan Ors) requires any special consideration, or do you just treat them like a regular turret?

 

You'll do best with a way to get 2 tokens and protect it from enemies at R1.

 

I can see this working:

 

Spice Runner (or your preferred Scum named pilot)

++Twin Laser Turret

++K4 Security Droid

++Feedback Array

 

27+ depending on your preference of pilot.  If you take Jan, it might behoove you to take an Engine Upgrade, but she'll still need a way to get at least one modified attack.

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And then there's the Fel approach to TLT's, which is almost the lorrir approach really -  Twin Ion Engine mark 2 -  this lets you turn into the TLT ship with a 3 bank, roll out and boost in -  so you swerve into range one in such a way that you are now perpendicular to the TLT ship , and covers enough distance to jump into range 1 ---   Then you can turn 2 parallel to the boosting ship the following turn and STAY in range 1, even if they K-turn.... all done in one fel swoop!   :)

Edited by Ravncat

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(*) Deploy last, move last, and shoot first. A list with four TLTs has severely limited its pilot skill. A Rebel TLT list has at least three ships at PS2, and a Scum TLT list has at least three ships on PS1. That's an easy bid to beat, and because the TLT's donut hole makes it sensitive to positioning, it's a very good idea to outbid them.

 

Thats not true. You can have two Gold-Squadron Pilots with TLT, one Gray Squadron with TLT, plus Roark Garnet with TLT. That means 2 PS 12, one PS 4 and one PS 2.

You can even upgrade to:

 

Roark Garnet, TLT

Rebel Operative, TLT

Gold Squadron Pilot, TLT

Gray Squadron Pilot, R2-D6, Swarm Tactics, TLT

 

That means 3 attacks at PS12, and one at PS2.

I'm confused by this. Why would the first list have 2 ships at PS 12 and why would the second have 3? Roark makes one ship (which also can't be himself) PS 12.

So the first list could fire at 12/4/4/2 at best, and the second could do 12/12/4/2. Still decent, but either way, kill Roark first. He's the most fragile TLT anyway.

 

 

Upps. Seems I was wrong, you're right, it's two ships at PS 12.

 

But since TLT says attack twice, it's still four attacks at PS 12 :P

 

 

Why wouldn't you switch it to:

 

Roark Garnet, TLT

Rebel Operative, TLT

Gold Squadron Pilot, R2-D6, Swarm Tactics, TLT

Gray Squadron Pilot, TLT

 

Then you have 12/12/4/4

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(*) Deploy last, move last, and shoot first. A list with four TLTs has severely limited its pilot skill. A Rebel TLT list has at least three ships at PS2, and a Scum TLT list has at least three ships on PS1. That's an easy bid to beat, and because the TLT's donut hole makes it sensitive to positioning, it's a very good idea to outbid them.

 

Thats not true. You can have two Gold-Squadron Pilots with TLT, one Gray Squadron with TLT, plus Roark Garnet with TLT. That means 2 PS 12, one PS 4 and one PS 2.

You can even upgrade to:

 

Roark Garnet, TLT

Rebel Operative, TLT

Gold Squadron Pilot, TLT

Gray Squadron Pilot, R2-D6, Swarm Tactics, TLT

 

That means 3 attacks at PS12, and one at PS2.

I'm confused by this. Why would the first list have 2 ships at PS 12 and why would the second have 3? Roark makes one ship (which also can't be himself) PS 12.

So the first list could fire at 12/4/4/2 at best, and the second could do 12/12/4/2. Still decent, but either way, kill Roark first. He's the most fragile TLT anyway.

 

 

Upps. Seems I was wrong, you're right, it's two ships at PS 12.

 

But since TLT says attack twice, it's still four attacks at PS 12 :P

 

 

Why wouldn't you switch it to:

 

Roark Garnet, TLT

Rebel Operative, TLT

Gold Squadron Pilot, R2-D6, Swarm Tactics, TLT

Gray Squadron Pilot, TLT

 

Then you have 12/12/4/4

R2-D6 can't be on PS2 pilots?

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They are pulling power from tokens (as in single tokens) and once per turn abilities especially the hard mitigation cards like C-3PO. But multi Tokens and once per attack abilities will be given much more power.

 

I think TLT is a good card but it will make good upgrade better and average upgrade terrible widening the meta gap.

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Second, it offers incredibly reliable damage (although not always a lot of it). It typically does less damage than a normal attack with 3 dice, but it's much less likely to miss entirely.

 

I'm still working on the analysis before I make a comprehensive post, but I felt it important to interject a very important point here that directly contradicts something you have said here (bolded). I am not aware of anyone else who has yet done all of the pre-requisite math correctly to reach this conclusion:

 

At range 2, if the defender does not have AutoThrusters, the TLT does more average damage than 3 base attack dice for most permutations of defense dice, defender action economy, and attacker action economy.

 

It is not only an issue of the TLT having a low variance in damage: the expected damage of TLT is greater than having 3 attack dice. The only time when 3 attack dice does more damage than TLT is when the attacker has focus, and the defender does not have focus, and the defender AGI is 3+. Even then, the difference is relatively small (6% vs AGI3, 12% vs AGI4) . In most permutations at range 2 the average damage from TLT is closer to ATT4 than it is to ATT3. If the defender has focus and the attacker does not, then TLT is within spitting distance of ATT4 regardless of the defender's AGI (1.75 compared to 2.0 vs AGI0, down to 0.316 compared to 0.326 vs AGI4).

 

Primary weapons gain their advantage at range 1, but if you use the "typical" range bin and action economy distribution that I have been using in my MathWing thread, and allow the TLT to always have a shot (no range 1 hole), then the TLT still does about 5% to 9% more damage than ATT3 even with the primary weapon's bonus at range 1.

 

To put it in perspective, a PS2 Y-wing with TLT has a jousting efficiency of about 89%. That's absurdly good for having a turret, even one that has a range 1 hole.

 

 

TL;DR: TLT is even more scary than Vorpal thinks it is! Fly against it haphazardly at your own peril!

Edited by MajorJuggler

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To put it in perspective, a PS2 Y-wing with TLT has a jousting efficiency of about 89%. That's absurdly good for having a turret, even one that has a range 1 hole.

 

 

TL;DR: TLT is even more scary than Vorpal thinks it is! Fly against it haphazardly at your own peril!

 

 

And, it only sort of has a range 1 hole.  This isn't an Outrider with an HLC.

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Nice post, Vorpal!

 

Well constructed, informative.

 

After playing a few games against TLT lists with a Decimator, I've already felt compelled to try new lists and ships. Not that a Decimator CAN'T win against TLT, the approach and chase just has to be pretty darn good! The same goes for Soontir. Lots of ways that multiple TLTs can set up multiple arcs and/or blocks when Soontir closes the gap.

 

If anything, playing the sort of ships that TLT can eat up just got a LOT more interesting. Who knew I could be even MORE excited about X Wing.

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Second, it offers incredibly reliable damage (although not always a lot of it). It typically does less damage than a normal attack with 3 dice, but it's much less likely to miss entirely.

 

I'm still working on the analysis before I make a comprehensive post, but I felt it important to interject a very important point here that directly contradicts something you have said here (bolded). I am not aware of anyone else who has yet done all of the pre-requisite math correctly to reach this conclusion:

 

At range 2, if the defender does not have AutoThrusters, the TLT does more average damage than 3 base attack dice for most permutations of defense dice, defender action economy, and attacker action economy.

 

It is not only an issue of the TLT having a low variance in damage: the expected damage of TLT is greater than having 3 attack dice. The only time when 3 attack dice does more damage than TLT is when the attacker has focus, and the defender does not have focus, and the defender AGI is 3+.

I'm sure you've double-checked that, but I'd ask you to look again. Taking TLT and 3 dice against 2 Agility, with one focus token for the attacker and no focus token for the defender: I have the TLT doing 1.43 damage on average, and 3 Attack doing 1.53.

It's a complex situation and it's perfectly possible I've done something wrong--especially since I'm going at it by brute force this time around, with my scripts are on hold until I can afford to update SAS or learn R.

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