Twin Laser Turrets: Why they're scary, and how you can fight back.

[Vorpal Sword 14,685]

I'm responding to threads like these two from the past week:

• TLT Meta, The end of the Fast and Furious?
• Twin Laser Turrets are ridiculous

People seem to be looking at these and asking questions: how worried should I be about Twin Laser Turrets? (At least a little.) Can they be beaten? (Yes.) What are they going to do to the metagame? (Read on!)

Here's the card in question:


What does it do? It's a double attack at Range 2-3, with the damage of each attack capped at 1. That scares people for a couple of reasons: first, it's the only turret upgrade that reaches out to Range 3. That means that, from a maneuvering standpoint, a small ship with a Twin Laser Turret works more like an HLC Outrider than like a ship with Ion Cannon Turret.

Second, it offers incredibly reliable damage (although not always a lot of it). It typically does less damage than a normal attack with 3 dice, but it's much less likely to miss entirely. Correction: it has a lower damage cap than a normal attack with 3 dice, but it's less likely to miss entirely. That leads, on average, to doing comparable or even better damage than 3 Attack.

Taken together, those things mean that TLT is going to feel different at the table for a lot of players, I think, and it's what seems to be leading to some frustration. If you're on the receiving end, you're going to be thinking I just can't get away from it! And to some degree, you're right.
 
TLT offers a reliable point of damage every round against (most) of the agile arc-dodgers that currently play a huge role in the metagame. That's not new, especially with the Darth Vader crew card in the game. What is new is that TLT also offers excellent and reliable damage against those expensive, Large ships with turrets that dominate the metagame. (In a matchup of two 24-point Syndicate Thugs + Twin Laser Turret against a 63-point Fat Han, bet on the Scum: Han will take 2-3 points of damage each round, even after all the mitigation, and he can't deal enough damage quickly enough to counter that.)
 
We haven't seen an upgrade before that hits at both of those pillars of the game simultaneously--the arc-dodger and the heavy turret. And since those pillars are much more prominent right now than their sibling the jouster, it's going to catch a lot of people napping.
 
But that doesn't have to be you. Read on to find out how you can skip the frustration.

Edited August 24, 2015 by Vorpal Sword

[Vorpal Sword 14,685]

So diving down into the specifics, what does TLT mean for your defense from a mathematical standpoint?

(*) It means green dice are even more unreliable than usual. If you're a fan of TIE Interceptors, you're used to biting your nails while the defense dice decide whether or not you live through the round. This is like that, except you get even more chances to fail!

(*) It means once-per-round effects are less valuable. This includes things like C-3PO and R2-D2 (both versions, actually), but it also includes things like focus and evade tokens.

(*) It means expensive hit points are dangerous. TLTs are pretty certain to shave hit points away from even the most determined defense, which means if you're paying 10+ squad points for each hit point, you're in trouble.

 

(*) It means your championship Wave 6 list might not work anymore. If you were running RAC/Fel, for instance, you're in for a bad matchup against TLT spam. This might require that you set aside your favorite list and start experimenting, which is going to feel great for some of us and make others really uncomfortable. Do it anyway, because not doing it is going to lead to some very frustrating games.

But if you know what TLTs do, you know how to fight them!

(*) Rely on hit points, not green dice. This doesn't mean you hang up Soontir Fel (see below). But if you want to make your list stronger against TLTs, you want a ship with more hit points rather than trying to rely on your Agility to avoid damage entirely. For instance, a Z-95 is a better choice as an anti-TLT swarmer than a TIE fighter is, because the Z-95 performs better against reliable, low-damage attacks like the TLT.

(*) Find upgrades that work multiple times per round. TLTs really, really hate Sensor Jammer. They don't like trying to hit Luke Skywalker. They're not big fans of Glitterstim. They think Lone Wolf is obnoxious. They don't think Autothrusters are fun to shoot at. And that's all because typically, a TLT-heavy list makes a lot of unmodified attacks. That's how they're getting that reliability, but if you can modify your green dice against every incoming attack, you've gone a long way toward countering that advantage.

(*) Build your list with cheap hit points. The cheapest hit points in the game belong to the Omicron Group Pilot. The next cheapest, in order, belong to the (naked) Y-wing, TIE Punisher, YV-666, and VT-49 Decimator. Moreover, named pilots with a lot of upgrades are more expensive per hit point than a naked generic version of the same ship. In the TLT metagame, you'll have to choose your upgrades with more care than at any time since Wave 4 hit.

In addition to Mathwing and list-building theorycraft, there's also the game's geometry to think about. How can you exploit that Range 1 donut hole?

(*) Close quickly. This seems like it should be self-explanatory, but I'll mention it anyway: none of the ships that can take TLTs are particularly fast or maneuverable. (K-wings can be both, actually, but they can't SLAM and attack in the same turn.) If you set up at the front of your deployment zone and execute two 4-straight maneuvers with a small base, you're just outside Range 3 from your opponent's deployment zone. And meanwhile, the slowest possible approach by your TLT-carrying opponent (barring a slow-roll or stop maneuver, which Y-wings, HWKs, and K-wings can't do) has put it on the border between Range 2 and Range 3. Your opponent should have at most one round of shooting with the TLT before you pounce--and if you're Large, or have boost, or have access to a 5-straight maneuver, you can actually close fast enough to get to Range 1 for that first round of engagement.

Of course this can get a lot more complicated if you don't set up directly across from your opponent, or if your opponent doesn't move forward. (For this reason, TLTs probably want to either deploy parallel to their edge, rather than perpendicular, or start with a turn so that they're moving perpendicular their opponents' approach.) But the fundamental issue is that a TLT list is at its best at Range 3 and at its worst at Range 1, which means you want to make your initial engagement at Range 2 or (ideally) at Range 1.

(*) Deploy last, move last, and shoot first. A list with four TLTs will typically have low pilot skill, since Gold Squadron, Rebel Operative, and Hired Thugs all sit at PS2 and Spice Runners are PS1. That's an easy bid to beat, and because the TLT's donut hole makes it sensitive to positioning, it's a very good idea to outbid them.

(*) Use boost and barrel roll to exploit the donut hole. To the extent possible (given that you're aiming for cheap hit points and prioritizing extra hit points over extra green dice), use maneuverable ships to hunt your way into Range 1--and then stick there. Naturally this gets more difficult if your opponent spreads out those TLTs. But positioning your ships in the donut hole means you've force your opponent to split his or her fire, which isn't a good idea when you specialize in small amounts of reliable damage.

 

***

I think that's about it for me, although I'll stick around to keep talking if you can stand to listen. Thanks for reading!

[A couple of edits based on early feedback. Thanks to MrkvChain and Skargoth.]

Edited August 22, 2015 by Vorpal Sword

[MrkvChain 72]

(*) Deploy last, move last, and shoot first. A list with four TLTs has severely limited its pilot skill. A Rebel TLT list has at least three ships at PS2, and a Scum TLT list has at least three ships on PS1. That's an easy bid to beat, and because the TLT's donut hole makes it sensitive to positioning, it's a very good idea to outbid them.

 

Thats not true. You can have two Gold-Squadron Pilots with TLT, one Gray Squadron with TLT, plus Roark Garnet with TLT. That means 2 PS 12, one PS 4 and one PS 2.

You can even upgrade to:

 

Roark Garnet, TLT

Rebel Operative, TLT

Gold Squadron Pilot, TLT

Gray Squadron Pilot, R2-D6, Swarm Tactics, TLT

 

That means 3 attacks at PS12, and one at PS2.

 

EDIT: The movement still happens at 2*PS2 and 2*PS4.

 

But its been a good read!

Edited August 22, 2015 by MrkvChain

[Skargoth 1,703]

Good write up, I think some of the naysayers just need to see it put in perspective.

Edited August 27, 2015 by Skargoth

[Tipperary 2,370]

(*) Deploy last, move last, and shoot first. A list with four TLTs has severely limited its pilot skill. A Rebel TLT list has at least three ships at PS2, and a Scum TLT list has at least three ships on PS1. That's an easy bid to beat, and because the TLT's donut hole makes it sensitive to positioning, it's a very good idea to outbid them.

Thats not true. You can have two Gold-Squadron Pilots with TLT, one Gray Squadron with TLT, plus Roark Garnet with TLT. That means 2 PS 12, one PS 4 and one PS 2.

You can even upgrade to:

 

Roark Garnet, TLT

Rebel Operative, TLT

Gold Squadron Pilot, TLT

Gray Squadron Pilot, R2-D6, Swarm Tactics, TLT

 

That means 3 attacks at PS12, and one at PS2.

 

But its been a good read!

This is brutally hilarious. Still has a few problems since high-HP would potentially survive ≤8 hits and punch a ship, at which point they could shut the combo down, but as an alpha-strike 8 TLT attacks is definitely scary even to tanked squints.

[Vulf 911]

If only there was a high hitpoint Cluster Missile boat with boost to close in and take advantage of the low defense of turret ships.

 

Oh wait, it is coming out in the same god **** release. The solution is problemming itself.

[ficklegreendice 34,363]

Thrusters?

They're not once per round, they're reliable (more so than greens) and in the event that an opponent pushes 3 crits through some silly bad defense roll, it's still one damage max.

Tlts are far more reliable than most conventional attacks with thrusters involved, but thrusters can really stonewall them (esp unmodded shots)

On the flip side, tlt fans invest in Conner's . conners break up enemy approaches, break open turtled ships like soontir, and overall just compliment tlt exceptionally well while also screwing over both pillars of the current meta

I've found thruster ships otherwise exceptionally difficult to crack, as well as ptl + r2-d2 e-wings. Without thrusters though, high value targets such as Vader flood with surprising ease.

Edited August 22, 2015 by ficklegreendice

[ParaGoomba Slayer 3,180]

Step 1.) Fly literally anything except a 2 ship list. Even then Dual IG's don't seem to bad against them.

Step 2.) Close to range one ASAP and concentrate fire with your swarm or BBBB(Z)/Panic Attack or 6 A Wings, 5x Autoceptors, etc.

3.) Bids to 3+ PS. 7x Obsidian +7x TIE MK II comes to mind. 4x Dagger Squadron and 4x Enhanced scopes lol?

Step 4.) Show up to the game day with your counter TLT list and have everyone still play Turrets anyways.

[Biophysical 15,776]

I think staying at range 3 is a legit strategy if you have the moves to pull it off. The individual TLT ship fights well at range 3, but the formation does not (and we're talking about massed TLTs, here, not 1 or 2 in a squad). If you can control range better, you can engage only one or two ships at the edges, making for a very unfair fight, because cheap TLT carriers cannot maneuver well once you're in position.

In short:

Going head to head with TLTs gives you a chance to shoot for the range 1 gap and get unopposed shots.

Attacking from a flank or rear gives you an opportunity to control range and engage only part of the opposing squad each turn.

Either of these approaches with ships that have even modest abilities to modify movement will be advantageous.

[FuturistiKen 316]

Excellent write-up!  Both informative and well written, and also brought about some excellent discussion.  All of it helps the newbie pilot (me) understand both the meta as it currently stands, and the direction it can be expected to take in the short-term as the new ships start showing up on tournament tables.  What this forum is all about, so thanks!

[Okapi 1,463]

If anything this is an interesting development. Anything to shake up the meta, which honestly has gone a little stale lately.

[Rodafowa 2,483]

I, for one, welcome our new Twin Laser Turret overlords.

I worry they're going to make Brobots even more prominent in the meta, because they might chase away some of the high-PS arc-dodgers that the Aggressors don't like seeing. But if it's a choice between endless fat turrets and quirky low-PS TLT swarms I know which one I'd enjoy flying against more.

[Sekac 3,507]

(*) Deploy last, move last, and shoot first. A list with four TLTs has severely limited its pilot skill. A Rebel TLT list has at least three ships at PS2, and a Scum TLT list has at least three ships on PS1. That's an easy bid to beat, and because the TLT's donut hole makes it sensitive to positioning, it's a very good idea to outbid them.

 

Thats not true. You can have two Gold-Squadron Pilots with TLT, one Gray Squadron with TLT, plus Roark Garnet with TLT. That means 2 PS 12, one PS 4 and one PS 2.

You can even upgrade to:

 

Roark Garnet, TLT

Rebel Operative, TLT

Gold Squadron Pilot, TLT

Gray Squadron Pilot, R2-D6, Swarm Tactics, TLT

 

That means 3 attacks at PS12, and one at PS2.

I'm confused by this. Why would the first list have 2 ships at PS 12 and why would the second have 3? Roark makes one ship (which also can't be himself) PS 12.

So the first list could fire at 12/4/4/2 at best, and the second could do 12/12/4/2. Still decent, but either way, kill Roark first. He's the most fragile TLT anyway.

[MrkvChain 72]

 

 

(*) Deploy last, move last, and shoot first. A list with four TLTs has severely limited its pilot skill. A Rebel TLT list has at least three ships at PS2, and a Scum TLT list has at least three ships on PS1. That's an easy bid to beat, and because the TLT's donut hole makes it sensitive to positioning, it's a very good idea to outbid them.

 

Thats not true. You can have two Gold-Squadron Pilots with TLT, one Gray Squadron with TLT, plus Roark Garnet with TLT. That means 2 PS 12, one PS 4 and one PS 2.

You can even upgrade to:

 

Roark Garnet, TLT

Rebel Operative, TLT

Gold Squadron Pilot, TLT

Gray Squadron Pilot, R2-D6, Swarm Tactics, TLT

 

That means 3 attacks at PS12, and one at PS2.

I'm confused by this. Why would the first list have 2 ships at PS 12 and why would the second have 3? Roark makes one ship (which also can't be himself) PS 12.

So the first list could fire at 12/4/4/2 at best, and the second could do 12/12/4/2. Still decent, but either way, kill Roark first. He's the most fragile TLT anyway.

 

 

Upps. Seems I was wrong, you're right, it's two ships at PS 12.

 

But since TLT says attack twice, it's still four attacks at PS 12

[Biophysical 15,776]

Does anyone think that a single TLT in list (say, Jan Ors) requires any special consideration, or do you just treat them like a regular turret?

[Engine25 2,910]

Does anyone think that a single TLT in list (say, Jan Ors) requires any special consideration, or do you just treat them like a regular turret?

 

You'll do best with a way to get 2 tokens and protect it from enemies at R1.

 

I can see this working:

 

Spice Runner (or your preferred Scum named pilot)

++Twin Laser Turret

++K4 Security Droid

++Feedback Array

 

27+ depending on your preference of pilot.  If you take Jan, it might behoove you to take an Engine Upgrade, but she'll still need a way to get at least one modified attack.

[Ravncat 1,989]

And then there's the Fel approach to TLT's, which is almost the lorrir approach really -  Twin Ion Engine mark 2 -  this lets you turn into the TLT ship with a 3 bank, roll out and boost in -  so you swerve into range one in such a way that you are now perpendicular to the TLT ship , and covers enough distance to jump into range 1 ---   Then you can turn 2 parallel to the boosting ship the following turn and STAY in range 1, even if they K-turn.... all done in one fel swoop!  

Edited August 23, 2015 by Ravncat

[xXWarsmithXx 310]

 

 

 

(*) Deploy last, move last, and shoot first. A list with four TLTs has severely limited its pilot skill. A Rebel TLT list has at least three ships at PS2, and a Scum TLT list has at least three ships on PS1. That's an easy bid to beat, and because the TLT's donut hole makes it sensitive to positioning, it's a very good idea to outbid them.

 

Thats not true. You can have two Gold-Squadron Pilots with TLT, one Gray Squadron with TLT, plus Roark Garnet with TLT. That means 2 PS 12, one PS 4 and one PS 2.

You can even upgrade to:

 

Roark Garnet, TLT

Rebel Operative, TLT

Gold Squadron Pilot, TLT

Gray Squadron Pilot, R2-D6, Swarm Tactics, TLT

 

That means 3 attacks at PS12, and one at PS2.

I'm confused by this. Why would the first list have 2 ships at PS 12 and why would the second have 3? Roark makes one ship (which also can't be himself) PS 12.

So the first list could fire at 12/4/4/2 at best, and the second could do 12/12/4/2. Still decent, but either way, kill Roark first. He's the most fragile TLT anyway.

 

 

Upps. Seems I was wrong, you're right, it's two ships at PS 12.

 

But since TLT says attack twice, it's still four attacks at PS 12

 

 

Why wouldn't you switch it to:

 

Roark Garnet, TLT

Rebel Operative, TLT

Gold Squadron Pilot, R2-D6, Swarm Tactics, TLT

Gray Squadron Pilot, TLT

 

Then you have 12/12/4/4

[Tipperary 2,370]

 

 

 

 

(*) Deploy last, move last, and shoot first. A list with four TLTs has severely limited its pilot skill. A Rebel TLT list has at least three ships at PS2, and a Scum TLT list has at least three ships on PS1. That's an easy bid to beat, and because the TLT's donut hole makes it sensitive to positioning, it's a very good idea to outbid them.

 

Thats not true. You can have two Gold-Squadron Pilots with TLT, one Gray Squadron with TLT, plus Roark Garnet with TLT. That means 2 PS 12, one PS 4 and one PS 2.

You can even upgrade to:

 

Roark Garnet, TLT

Rebel Operative, TLT

Gold Squadron Pilot, TLT

Gray Squadron Pilot, R2-D6, Swarm Tactics, TLT

 

That means 3 attacks at PS12, and one at PS2.

I'm confused by this. Why would the first list have 2 ships at PS 12 and why would the second have 3? Roark makes one ship (which also can't be himself) PS 12.

So the first list could fire at 12/4/4/2 at best, and the second could do 12/12/4/2. Still decent, but either way, kill Roark first. He's the most fragile TLT anyway.

 

 

Upps. Seems I was wrong, you're right, it's two ships at PS 12.

 

But since TLT says attack twice, it's still four attacks at PS 12

 

 

Why wouldn't you switch it to:

 

Roark Garnet, TLT

Rebel Operative, TLT

Gold Squadron Pilot, R2-D6, Swarm Tactics, TLT

Gray Squadron Pilot, TLT

 

Then you have 12/12/4/4

R2-D6 can't be on PS2 pilots?

[Marinealver 8,073]

They are pulling power from tokens (as in single tokens) and once per turn abilities especially the hard mitigation cards like C-3PO. But multi Tokens and once per attack abilities will be given much more power.

 

I think TLT is a good card but it will make good upgrade better and average upgrade terrible widening the meta gap.

[MajorJuggler 7,752]

Second, it offers incredibly reliable damage (although not always a lot of it). It typically does less damage than a normal attack with 3 dice, but it's much less likely to miss entirely.

 

I'm still working on the analysis before I make a comprehensive post, but I felt it important to interject a very important point here that directly contradicts something you have said here (bolded). I am not aware of anyone else who has yet done all of the pre-requisite math correctly to reach this conclusion:

 

At range 2, if the defender does not have AutoThrusters, the TLT does more average damage than 3 base attack dice for most permutations of defense dice, defender action economy, and attacker action economy.

 

It is not only an issue of the TLT having a low variance in damage: the expected damage of TLT is greater than having 3 attack dice. The only time when 3 attack dice does more damage than TLT is when the attacker has focus, and the defender does not have focus, and the defender AGI is 3+. Even then, the difference is relatively small (6% vs AGI3, 12% vs AGI4) . In most permutations at range 2 the average damage from TLT is closer to ATT4 than it is to ATT3. If the defender has focus and the attacker does not, then TLT is within spitting distance of ATT4 regardless of the defender's AGI (1.75 compared to 2.0 vs AGI0, down to 0.316 compared to 0.326 vs AGI4).

 

Primary weapons gain their advantage at range 1, but if you use the "typical" range bin and action economy distribution that I have been using in my MathWing thread, and allow the TLT to always have a shot (no range 1 hole), then the TLT still does about 5% to 9% more damage than ATT3 even with the primary weapon's bonus at range 1.

 

To put it in perspective, a PS2 Y-wing with TLT has a jousting efficiency of about 89%. That's absurdly good for having a turret, even one that has a range 1 hole.

 

 

TL;DR: TLT is even more scary than Vorpal thinks it is! Fly against it haphazardly at your own peril!

Edited August 23, 2015 by MajorJuggler

[maxam 815]

Really, really great post Vorpal - thank you!

[AlexW 2,902]

 

 

To put it in perspective, a PS2 Y-wing with TLT has a jousting efficiency of about 89%. That's absurdly good for having a turret, even one that has a range 1 hole.

 

 

TL;DR: TLT is even more scary than Vorpal thinks it is! Fly against it haphazardly at your own peril!

 

 

And, it only sort of has a range 1 hole.  This isn't an Outrider with an HLC.

[phild0 1,735]

Nice post, Vorpal!

 

Well constructed, informative.

 

After playing a few games against TLT lists with a Decimator, I've already felt compelled to try new lists and ships. Not that a Decimator CAN'T win against TLT, the approach and chase just has to be pretty darn good! The same goes for Soontir. Lots of ways that multiple TLTs can set up multiple arcs and/or blocks when Soontir closes the gap.

 

If anything, playing the sort of ships that TLT can eat up just got a LOT more interesting. Who knew I could be even MORE excited about X Wing.

[Vorpal Sword 14,685]

Second, it offers incredibly reliable damage (although not always a lot of it). It typically does less damage than a normal attack with 3 dice, but it's much less likely to miss entirely.

 

I'm still working on the analysis before I make a comprehensive post, but I felt it important to interject a very important point here that directly contradicts something you have said here (bolded). I am not aware of anyone else who has yet done all of the pre-requisite math correctly to reach this conclusion:

 

At range 2, if the defender does not have AutoThrusters, the TLT does more average damage than 3 base attack dice for most permutations of defense dice, defender action economy, and attacker action economy.

 

It is not only an issue of the TLT having a low variance in damage: the expected damage of TLT is greater than having 3 attack dice. The only time when 3 attack dice does more damage than TLT is when the attacker has focus, and the defender does not have focus, and the defender AGI is 3+.

I'm sure you've double-checked that, but I'd ask you to look again. Taking TLT and 3 dice against 2 Agility, with one focus token for the attacker and no focus token for the defender: I have the TLT doing 1.43 damage on average, and 3 Attack doing 1.53.

It's a complex situation and it's perfectly possible I've done something wrong--especially since I'm going at it by brute force this time around, with my scripts are on hold until I can afford to update SAS or learn R.