Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
OtakuQc

DH2 needs a solid fluff book

Recommended Posts

Hi everyone!

 

I'm a lurker. I decided to get out of the Warp to write this.

 

By the topics of this forum, I think that DH2 need a good background book. The phenomenal amount of information, let me believe that there is no consensus on some subjects. Also, there is some void that needs to be fulfilled..

 

I think a good supplement containing history, sociology, psychology, politic, economy and religion could contribute a lot for the DH2.

 

I am a newbie to the world of W40k. My only references are Space Hulk (PC game of 90s) and the Space Marine (PS3). Even with my 29 years of experience in the world of RPGaming, I'm at lost on some aspects of the universe. One example is the everyday life of a subject of the Empire. What are the civilians transport on land, air, sea and space? (I know there is some transports that did not change that much, but still).

 

Hope to be useful.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, lots of that information is considered the background knowledge of 40k (I'd recommend checking out the wiki or Lexicanum if you are interested.) But I wouldn't mind a book with more of a focus on sector lore. I guess the big issue in this case would be that there would still need to be rules in it, otherwise they would likely just commission one of the 40k fiction authors to just set a novel in the Askellon sector. Additionally, I'm not sure I'd be willing to BUY a rule book without many rules.

 

But even so, it could stand to be made, but then the question is, what are they giving the lore book priority on? I think most of the community is itching for more rules/creatures/items and roles, so essentially Lore book < enemies beyond/bestiary.

 

These things tend to get fleshed out over time. A little bit of Lore starts to feel a lot bigger when we've got 5-6 supplements.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am a newbie to the world of W40k.

 

 

No offence, but it's noticabe. :)
Problem is not "we have not enough lore". Problem is "we have tons of lore parts of that contradict each other, and no solid canon hierarchy". And it's not something that can be done from DH2 point.
That's understandable. Sometimes ago it was just a half-comedy offshot for Fantasy Battles Warhammer, heavy adventure-like. It should be pulp-like space fiction. But later this idea was forfieted (for good if you ask me). But it stayed very aestetic-based, not fact or rationallity.
And one more. For bad or for good DH (and all WHRPG) is very niche product. You suppose to know something about setting to play it. 
Well. To be honest I'm a fan of rationality. I'm trying to create some kind of "fluff book" for my players who never know what is WH40K (or believe "it's about big humans with big shoulder armor who trying to kill tanks with swords? boooooooring!"). But it's completly non-official.
Edited by Aenno

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I for one think something like this would be great.  Something similar to the Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer and the Imperial Munitorium Manual.

 

It would be a great way to corral some of the fluff conflicts into one place and set the tone for Askellon.

 

Frame it as an Administratum Report on civillian life in the Askellon sector or some such.

 

This would be very cool!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Anyone who wants a product like this should email FFG directly. Books that don't contain mechanics are notoriously poor sellers and FFG would be spending identical resources (art, writing, layout, printing) on a lore product that wouldn't sell well as compared to a rules supplement that would sell much better. They would also likely be seen by Games Workshop as competing with the lore products they put out. So unless there's a really huge demand for it (eg directly contacting FFG), the likelihood of it is low.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A whole lore book may be a bit much, but I know I would really like if they produced a manual or some sort of general introduction to Warhammer 40k. It is a niche setting with a massive amount of lore that is impenetrable to people who are new, unless they are willing to spend a lot of time reading. There has been little done to introduce this setting to new people, and a short guide would do well to fix that. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The book could contain some rules in it. For example, a history section about a specific age and conclude with lost technologies that could be found and used or extinct xenos with hist stats or descriptions of some protoganists/villains from novels. Also, they could add optional system about the currency in the ecnonomy section. Etc. Etc.

 

But, a only substance book without rules material could be awesome nonetheless. Other rpg systems did it (I think of Battletech).

 

Alternatively, they could do a setting book of the universe of W40k that could be use by all FFG RPG W40k.

 

I know that the RPG of W40k is based on the wargaming tabletop. This type of game attract more to the grognard, but the RPG have the potential to open the setting to a larger audience. I want to know more that just the military side. It's just one piece of a whole. I want more...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, there is bits of non-military side in codexis and core rulebook for WH40K. You can notice how we drain them to every point trying to prove is <something> possible. Thats because 1) there are tons of rulebooks and info spreaded between pages; 2) there are some disputes what should be counted as canon and what shouldn't.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Problem is not "we have not enough lore". Problem is "we have tons of lore parts of that contradict each other, and no solid canon hierarchy". And it's not something that can be done from DH2 point.

 

This, so much.

 

Don't be afraid to "get something wrong". You can't, because wrong and right in this setting largely depend on which book you're looking at.

 

"It all stems from the assumption that there's a binding contract between author and reader to adhere to some nonexistent subjective construct or 'true' representation of the setting. There is no such contract, and no such objective truth."

-- Andy Hoare, former game designer at Games Workshop, published Black Library novel author and FFG writer

 

Every fan will invariably, at some point in time, arrive at their own vision of the setting, simply because the deeper you delve into the franchise, the more details you read, the more you will discover that they change between the books. This means you'll have to pick and choose, and this means you end up with your own "headcanon".

 

The problem with websites like Lexicanum is that they don't explain this important fact, and are written as if they contain the one truth. By all means, use the wiki to get inspiration, or to find the sources for things that are of interest for you, but don't take anything written there as gospel.

 

Make your own 40k that you enjoy playing in. Feel free to incorporate aspects from official books, but don't feel obliged to do so -- unless your players are expecting it. ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I mean, it's possible, if we ask real nicely, that Fantasy Flight games could release a free online story on their website of a day in the life of a few normal everyday civilians on various worlds. Would certainly be useful. Also I'm sure someone in the writing department would enjoy putting it together.

 

Alternatively, if any in the community feel they have a good understanding of the lore, they could write it themselves in the fan fiction side of the forum.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Alternatively, if any in the community feel they have a good understanding of the lore, they could write it themselves in the fan fiction side of the forum.

 

 

And I can bet I can find as much errors as I want. With cites from "official sources".
Hell, any story assuming Emperor is not active is contradict with 1st Edition Warhammer Core Rulebook for example.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
And I can bet I can find as much errors as I want. With cites from "official sources".
Hell, any story assuming Emperor is not active is contradict with 1st Edition Warhammer Core Rulebook for example.

 

And why would that be a problem? People just need to understand that all this stuff should be treated as a suggestion rather than gospel.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, not that I see problem here. I have my vision, it's not strictly codex vision, not Abnett or Mitchell one. But when I playing I need to enforce my vision to players I have. Yes, we're playing here in Russia, so we have some kind of vision about "totalitarian" society, what is it and how live here seems. I believe it's good for WH40K, but it's not something I can show and say "hey, that's canon".

Problem is when I have a player who have another vision (well, I had a player once who take Grey Knight codex for main aestetic source), and when he accuses me "hey, it's not warhammerish!". I ask him him why he believes so, maybe I will argue (such I do here), maybe I take his opinion, because we're trying to play Warhammer. But you have not one rulebook that can be named as "hey, that's your holy cow, that's you all should be, anything else is contraWarhammerish". But there is a difference and I believe it can be described.

 

Lynata here believes (is I take it right?) that Sister of Battle can't be unorthodox and stays Sister of Battle. That's aestetic point, and I can't argue with aestetic point. My problem is have we any source that forbid it differently, and yes - what is it? I don't know for sure, I rarely use SoB in my modules (and I believe they are rare), so I haven't any real position about it. But there is not "right position" and "wrong position", there is "this source demand this position and you can do everything with it".

So I arguing with "what source contain" and "what is logical", not "what is canonic version".

I believe Lynata doing same.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, not that I see problem here. I have my vision, it's not strictly codex vision, not Abnett or Mitchell one. But when I playing I need to enforce my vision to players I have.

 

This is true. Everyone in the group needs to share a common ground -- which is why I still prefer a franchise to have a singular, uniform and official canon to act as a "compass". 40k works fine with novels or games that are consumed on an individual basis (although here one could argue that it's bad if the reader/gamer expects one thing, and the product delivers another .. only experiences and reviews can help there). But roleplaying games are a team effort, and one that relies heavily on narration.

 

Mostly you can just brush off inconsistencies by pointing out that "this planet does it differently"; but needless to say, there are some things that should be universally true.

 

I'd say that ideally, the GM will sit down with their players before the campaign and check to see what interpretation of the setting everyone follows and whether there are some things that are of particular importance to individual people. Perhaps a compromise could be found?

 

Fluff and setting books can maybe help here by delivering an additional medium for material that the group can agree on, provided nobody takes offence with the content (and if so, perhaps that can simply be talked through as well). Dark Heresy has the advantage of inventing an entire new sector with all new worlds, so the likelihood of contradictions should be fairly low. People may have different ideas of how Cadia or Valhalla look, but if there is only one source describing the worlds of the Askellion sector - FFG - then this should not be the case. :)

 

So I arguing with "what source contain" and "what is logical", not "what is canonic version".

I believe Lynata doing same.

 

That sounds about right!

 

Though what is logical can at times also be very subjective. Sometimes, the only real solution is to agree to disagree. ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In general, I think just about every supplement FFG has ever put out for 40k contained some pretty cool background. Quite often new locations, or simply more in-depth information about known locations.

 

I think a number of people here are hoping for a book that could deliver the fluff without the crunch, rather than the "a littlebit of this, a littlebit of that" which seems to be the standard approach to these books ... but personally, I like their current style, too.

Edited by Lynata

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for that Primer. I'll make sure to read it tonight. 

 

I must agree with the OP, the 40K RPG's (as well as the rest of the 40K games) are in serious need of a fluff bible or primer. When I first became interested in 40K I started by reading Isenhorn and as much as it's a great novel, it's far from a perfect introduction as it assumes you know what the imperium is or what Chaos is all about. 

 

Years later I felt there were still large gaps in my understanding of the setting. For example, I still didn't understand what space marines were all about or how they were even created. So what did I do? I started reading the Horus Heresy. Now, a couple of years later and 30+ novels, countless short stories and who knows how many audiobooks I feel like I have some Idea of what's going on. My point is that it shouldn't be so difficult to understand what's going on. And I'm not talking about nebulous topics like Who is the Emperor? or What ever happened to Rogal Dorn? I think there's a place for a simple book that lays out the big details of the setting and expands on the "known" or assumed knowledge of say, a high level Inquisitor. 

 

This is humanity.

Hail the Emperor.

What's a Space Marine? Who are the Primarchs?

Big picture Horus Heresy.

Who are the major Xenos races?

What's a Rogue Trader? 

What's the church all about? There are many varieties you say? Great, tell me more. 

Psykers?

Warp?

Warp Travel?

 

Big picture stuff. A book that answers the question: What am I assumed to know?

 

I think GW is perhaps in the best position to write and publish something like this but so far they keep pointing to their vast, VAST library and saying "it's all in there". Not helpful. Not helpful at all. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for that Primer. I'll make sure to read it tonight. 

 

I must agree with the OP, the 40K RPG's (as well as the rest of the 40K games) are in serious need of a fluff bible or primer. When I first became interested in 40K I started by reading Isenhorn and as much as it's a great novel, it's far from a perfect introduction as it assumes you know what the imperium is or what Chaos is all about. 

 

Years later I felt there were still large gaps in my understanding of the setting. For example, I still didn't understand what space marines were all about or how they were even created. So what did I do? I started reading the Horus Heresy. Now, a couple of years later and 30+ novels, countless short stories and who knows how many audiobooks I feel like I have some Idea of what's going on. My point is that it shouldn't be so difficult to understand what's going on. And I'm not talking about nebulous topics like Who is the Emperor? or What ever happened to Rogal Dorn? I think there's a place for a simple book that lays out the big details of the setting and expands on the "known" or assumed knowledge of say, a high level Inquisitor. 

 

This is humanity.

Hail the Emperor.

What's a Space Marine? Who are the Primarchs?

Big picture Horus Heresy.

Who are the major Xenos races?

What's a Rogue Trader? 

What's the church all about? There are many varieties you say? Great, tell me more. 

Psykers?

Warp?

Warp Travel?

 

Big picture stuff. A book that answers the question: What am I assumed to know?

 

I think GW is perhaps in the best position to write and publish something like this but so far they keep pointing to their vast, VAST library and saying "it's all in there". Not helpful. Not helpful at all. 

The trouble is that most of that is generally pretty irrelevant, and most PCs will never even know it.

Some of that is in the book (like the basic nature of Psykers, Rogue traders, the names and some very basic info on xenos, and what your average dude knows of the warp and warp travel).

but the rest... Are you sure that it has it's place in Dark Heresy? All of that information can be found easily enough on sites like lexicanum or 1d4chan (which is more fun to read, and at least bothers ot indicate what is fanfiction and what is not - I'm looking at you 40kwiki!)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, the core rulebook of WH40k does what you speak about.

 

Also, the core rulebooks of GW's tabletop game. I think each edition included some sort of introduction, sometimes with more, sometimes less detail, but they all provide a good introduction as they are meant as the starting point for people new to the franchise, whereas the novels are intended for existing fans that have already consumed the aforementioned information.

 

The rulebooks are a bit pricey nowadays, but perhaps johnnype could ask a friend who has them? I've not read the 6th edition rulebook so far, but the 5th edition one had a very extensive background chapter.

 

For the Inquisition, there is also the old Thorian Sourcebook which GW had written for its own d100 Inquisitor game, and which is currently hosted here on Dark Reign.

 

Note that the more you go into detail, however, the more you are likely to find information that will conflict with other sources. Pick what you prefer, and don't be afraid to carve your own path, depending on your personal preferences.

 

"Keep in mind Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 are worlds where half truths, lies, propaganda, politics, legends and myths exist. The absolute truth which is implied when you talk about 'canonical background' will never be known because of this. Everything we know about these worlds is from the viewpoints of people in them which are as a result incomplete and even sometimes incorrect. The truth is mutable, debatable and lost as the victors write the history.

 

Here's our standard line: Yes it's all official, but remember that we're reporting back from a time where stories aren't always true, or at least 100% accurate. if it has the 40K logo on it, it exists in the 40K universe. Or it was a legend that may well have happened. Or a rumour that may or may not have any truth behind it."

-- Marc Gascoigne, chief editor Black Library

Edited by Lynata

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...