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Vorzakk

The Agony of Accuracy

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Okay I don't quite understand all the hate for accurate weapons. Yes a sniper rifle can oneshot a human leader or a gun servitor, that's what it's supposed to do. As for tanks, are they all driving backwards? Are they just skimmer vehicles? good luck shooting a chimera or even a rhino without getting torn to pieces. The point of the weapon, crunch and fluff wise, is to take out high priority single targets. It can't kill tanks, and you have to be loading your dice for someone to have a reliable chance of one-shotting a chaos space marine.

 

then again, im an avid sniper rifle user, as trying to hit and damage with most weapons other than flamers, snipers, and grenades often feels like an exercise in futility. If anything, it just shows how bad your standard lasgun and autorifles are at killing even standard grunts. 

 

I feel like i missed a memo or something where inquisitorial acolytes are supposed to be incapable of fighting other humans without substantial backup.

I think part of the problem is the crazy high chance to hit. A sniper can get so many bonuses that its impossible to miss. So add near guaranteed hit with likely lots of d10s and if any of the d10s is low it can be subbed out for the degrees of success. When combined with things like inescapable attack and either the assassin ability or eye of vengeance it can get real dumb. 

The other part of this is that both sniper weapons are easy to start with and blow the other starting weapons out of the water.

 

I honestly don't find it too much of a problem. Accurate weapons hurt like hell, but then they're just as easily dodged as any other shot; a weapon which delivers its damage increase via extra shots (like a semi-auto burst) is a lot harder to avoid entirely.

 

They're also a lot harder to use tactically; because so much of their effectiveness is bound up in aiming, firing on the move isn't practical, nor can you use them for suppressive fire - which frankly is one of the most powerful options available in the game; a half-competent spud with an autopistol can pin down three or four guys with rifles from 100 metres away easily. He won't hit them, but that's not the point.

 

Essentially, you want both to make an effective combat unit. The autoguns fire full auto suppressive bursts and keep people's heads down (passing a Wp check with a -20 is **** hard) whilst the snipers take their time and shoot people dead.

 

I agree on the difficulty of bringing down goons with guns, but I guess that's an issue baked into the basic mechanics - the problem is that the acolytes are essentially identical statline wise to generic opponents - and you don't want them to be one-shotted by some dude with a stub-gun.

 

It's surprising how lethal you can make a 'normal' gun, by the way, in the hands of a competent fighter. Mighty Shot and Deathdealer (Ranged) stacked together can almost double the lethality of 'normal' weapons.

Easily dodge as long as the firer doesn't pick up one very obvious talent (inescapable attack). This talent stacks stupidly well with the accurate rule.

Unlike the full auto weapons though the sniper rifles practically can't miss they get so many Ballistic skill bonuses and have a smaller chance of jamming.

If a sniper wants to pin he can just overwatch instead of suppressing. Willpower test is easier but far more likely to still hit the target and can shoot at multiple targets for still more base damage than the autoweapon.

Along with talents alternate ammo types can add quite a bit to SP weapons. The las power settings also are pretty helpful.

 

 

It was a looted tank.  It was not a truk. 

 

I'll ask the guy and try and get more details, but it was ratling sniper who was just blowing holes in this thing. 

 

 

Let's do an example 

 

Sniper Rifle 1d10+4 I Pen 1

Long Las 1d10+3 E Pen 3 

 

These both seem fairly innocuous weapons.  If you are using them properly with special ammo though you should stack up a lot of 1d10's

 

Sniper BS ~40 Starting ~50 Experienced ~60 Endgame

+20 AIM

+10 ACCURATE

+10 SHORT RANGE 

+10 RED DOT

+4 MODIFIED STOCK

+5 CUSTOM GRIP

 

Target Value is around ~99

 

79 = 1d10 + 1d10+X

59 = 2d10 + 1d10+X

 

Mix that with the correct ammo and you can damage tanks.  The hobbit had a 'to-hit' value well above 100.  

Don't forget most vehicles give a size bonus to hit as well.

Add on some special ammo and/or mighty shot and/or overcharging the long las and it's at least pretty good at hurting vehicles, if not eventually killing them.

 

 

Yes, Accurate is powerfull, but (as said) only against single targets. I never had a problem with it, because as a GM I tend to run not only a single enemy, but many smaller ones. Even the Big Bad Boss Guy still has helpers and underlings (with autoguns/lasguns/equivalent) around, who really threaten snipers.

If the sniper wants the benefit of Accurate he can't do anything else in that round (aim: half action / shoot: half action). The goons with the autogun can shoot and move (Try to flank the sniper / Move out of Sight and get closer / etc.). They can force him to make Pinning tests. And they can target more than one PC with Pinning (or even damage if the they are too close to each other), while the sniper can only target one enemy at a time.

Even against lots of small enemies the accurate weapons can be better. They are pretty much guaranteed to hit and do enough damage to easily kill puny enemies. Full auto weapons have a chance to get enough hits to hurt multiple targets but are also far more likely to just miss or jam and do nothing or to fail to get past a tough enemy's damage soak. Since the accurate weapons' d10s are all added together it gives a far better chance to power through high armor and toughness enemies.

Suppressing fire doesn't really even things out thanks to overwatch being stupid (triggering multiple times, also causing pinning and no additional penalties to hit). 

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*SNIP*

I think part of the problem is the crazy high chance to hit. A sniper can get so many bonuses that its impossible to miss. So add near guaranteed hit with likely lots of d10s and if any of the d10s is low it can be subbed out for the degrees of success. When combined with things like inescapable attack and either the assassin ability or eye of vengeance it can get real dumb. 

The other part of this is that both sniper weapons are easy to start with and blow the other starting weapons out of the water.

 

*SNIP*

Easily dodge as long as the firer doesn't pick up one very obvious talent (inescapable attack). This talent stacks stupidly well with the accurate rule.

Unlike the full auto weapons though the sniper rifles practically can't miss they get so many Ballistic skill bonuses and have a smaller chance of jamming.

If a sniper wants to pin he can just overwatch instead of suppressing. Willpower test is easier but far more likely to still hit the target and can shoot at multiple targets for still more base damage than the autoweapon.

Along with talents alternate ammo types can add quite a bit to SP weapons. The las power settings also are pretty helpful.

 

 

*SNIP*

Don't forget most vehicles give a size bonus to hit as well.

Add on some special ammo and/or mighty shot and/or overcharging the long las and it's at least pretty good at hurting vehicles, if not eventually killing them.

 

 

*snip*

Even against lots of small enemies the accurate weapons can be better. They are pretty much guaranteed to hit and do enough damage to easily kill puny enemies. Full auto weapons have a chance to get enough hits to hurt multiple targets but are also far more likely to just miss or jam and do nothing or to fail to get past a tough enemy's damage soak. Since the accurate weapons' d10s are all added together it gives a far better chance to power through high armor and toughness enemies.

Suppressing fire doesn't really even things out thanks to overwatch being stupid (triggering multiple times, also causing pinning and no additional penalties to hit). 

 

 

 1) yeah the sniper is up there with the flamethrower and grenade launcher as far as powerful starting items go. I don't know how much of it is a hold over from first edition, when full auto and semi auto were flat out better than single shot, but back then, every weapon was absurdly powerful.

 

2) vehicles are really easy to hit and damage, I think some of it is just bad scaling though on the vehicles part, but i do start seeing where 3d10 damage for a rifle is a bit much when compared to light vehicle armor.

 

3) you lose all those aim bonuses and the bonus damage when firing from overwatch though. You're back down to 1d10+4 with however much pen, at base Ballistic skill

 

The fundamental problem is that the extra damage from degrees of success is compounded by the high accuracy bonuses of a single shot accurate weapon. While its fine against random humanoids, It does become an issue against hardened targets like vehicles or bosses. Fog suggested straight up reducing the damage but that risks its actual idea of being that reliable single shot infantry killer it is supposed to be, which he may agree with, but i don't. I think it would be better to add to the base damage of the weapon rather than more d10s, like for every 2 degrees of success, add 4 damage (or 2 damage per extra degree, up to 8), since thats the base damage not counting overcharge on a longlas or sniper rifle. That way you can be sure it at least wont be plowing through the front or side armor of a tank anytime soon but still doing sensible damage. It runs a bit counter to the idea of "always roll dice for random damage" this game uses but i feel the randomness detracts somewhat in that the best aimed shot could either turn your rifle into an anti-tank weapon, or leave you bewildered at the enemy walking away unscathed.

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Page 226:

 

The Attack:

Step One: Apply Modifiers To Attacker's Characteristic:

...

The GM can also impose additional penalties or bonuses to the test if the situation warrants it.
...
The  maximum total bonus that can be applied to a test is +60. Conversely, the maximum total penalty that can be applied to a test is –60. When adjudicating difficulty, common sense should prevail.
...
Regardless of  the  usual  limits  on  test  penalties,  some  actions  are  simply impossible, and no test is permissible.
 
---
So when a Sniper fights a tank, he deals zero damage.
 
When a Sniper attacks a light vehicle itself, and not the driver, impose a penalty on the test. This represents the sniper trying to hit something critical.
 
I know it's not perfect, but it's still RAW. Impose a Very hard(-30) difficulty for instance for Snipers fighting light vehicles.
Edited by Gridash

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Ok, I'm lost at how Accuracy can by thought of as over powered.  Back in DH 1st when we started I wanted to do a sniper, after the first few sessions it was clear that sniping was just a waste of time and I got myself two bolt pistols and never picked a sniper rifle up again.

 

Now we have accurate which brings sniping back to something reasonable.

 

So lets have a look compared to an autogun assuming that both hit just as well (5 DoS):

 

Autogun = 1d10 + 3 X5 hits  >  5 chances of righteous fury, 5 shots that have to be evaded - avg = 40 dmg

Sniper Rifle = 1d10 + 4 + 2d10  >  1 chance of righteous fury, 1 shot have to be evaded - avg = 19 dmg

 

If we look at the example previous posted in this thread where the sniper got +20 to aim then then we have:

 

Autogun = 1d10 + 3 X10 hits  >  10 chances of righteous fury, 10 shots that have to be evaded - avg = 80 dmg

Sniper Rifle = 1d10 + 4 + 2d10  >  1 chance of righteous fury, 1 shot have to be evaded - avg = 19 dmg

 
This is since it will take the sniper two rounds to fire.

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So lets have a look compared to an autogun assuming that both hit just as well (5 DoS):

 

Autogun = 1d10 + 3 X5 hits  >  5 chances of righteous fury, 5 shots that have to be evaded - avg = 40 dmg

Sniper Rifle = 1d10 + 4 + 2d10  >  1 chance of righteous fury, 1 shot have to be evaded - avg = 19 dmg

 

If we look at the example previous posted in this thread where the sniper got +20 to aim then then we have:

 

Autogun = 1d10 + 3 X10 hits  >  10 chances of righteous fury, 10 shots that have to be evaded - avg = 80 dmg

Sniper Rifle = 1d10 + 4 + 2d10  >  1 chance of righteous fury, 1 shot have to be evaded - avg = 19 dmg

 
This is since it will take the sniper two rounds to fire.

 

 

Few small things with your post. The biggest thing being you missed the ease of getting those DoS.

 

Since accurate weapons essentially give a +30 to aimed shots (+10 for taking a single shot, +10 for being an accurate weapon +10 for aiming with it), and since firing full-auto gives a -10 to hit, the same roll that would give you 5 DoS with an accurate weapon will only give you 1 DoS with an auto-gun on full auto. To get even on par with the damage a sniper rifle will put out, an autogun user has to roll 2 DoS better[/b] than the Sniper rifle user, and that's considerable. To get the numbers you're talking about they need to roll 4 degrees of success better than the sniper user.

 

It's simply easier and more consistent to be getting those numbers with a sniper most of the time, and the sniper is more effective against armor, due to all three rolls being bunched together into one result, as opposed to the autogun, which technically has the opponent's damage reduction applied against every hit individually (which means 4 hits against a character with a total of 7 damage reduction, dealing 32 damage total, is actually, on average, only dealing 4 damage overall).

Edited by ColArana

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Slight remark, adding a Targeter to a weapon that you want to fire reduces any final penalty by -10.

 

Thus -10 while firing on full-auto becomes 0.

 

Add a Motion Predictor on it and it gives a +10 bonus to the test. I guess that's the equivalent of the Red-Dot Laser Sight, but when firing on Semi or Full-auto mode.

Edited by Gridash

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Autogun = 1d10 + 3 X5 hits  >  5 chances of righteous fury, 5 shots that have to be evaded - avg = 40 dmg

Sniper Rifle = 1d10 + 4 + 2d10  >  1 chance of righteous fury, 1 shot have to be evaded - avg = 19 dmg

 

If we look at the example previous posted in this thread where the sniper got +20 to aim then then we have:

 

Autogun = 1d10 + 3 X10 hits  >  10 chances of righteous fury, 10 shots that have to be evaded - avg = 80 dmg

Sniper Rifle = 1d10 + 4 + 2d10  >  1 chance of righteous fury, 1 shot have to be evaded - avg = 19 dmg

 
This is since it will take the sniper two rounds to fire.

 

 

Since accurate weapons essentially give a +30 to aimed shots (+10 for taking a single shot, +10 for being an accurate weapon +10 for aiming with it), and since firing full-auto gives a -10 to hit, the same roll that would give you 5 DoS with an accurate weapon will only give you 1 DoS with an auto-gun on full auto. To get even on par with the damage a sniper rifle will put out, an autogun user has to roll 2 DoS better[/b] than the Sniper rifle user, and that's considerable. To get the numbers you're talking about they need to roll 4 degrees of success better than the sniper user.

 

 

You can aim with Full-Auto too, giving a 3 DoS difference.

 

This puts the Full-Auto weapon to be more damaging and less easy to dodge at best case (roll 1), but makes you more likely to hit with your accurate weapon, hence the "Accurate" trait, but they may dodge it. It also appears that, mathematically, Full-Auto scales better with higher BS.

Edited by Utherix

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SNIP

 

 

It does scale better, but it takes longer for it to get rolling. one of the tradeoffs of sniper rifles is they have limited scaling in exchange for reliability, especially considering a lot of talents add damage "per hit" and not "per DoS"

A heavy stubber with a skilled gunner will rip people apart faster than a skilled sniper would most of the time, assuming we arent fighting space marines or tanks.

 

Also, I still hold the right to kill dark eldar skimmers with a sniper rifle. It's their own fault for never armoring anything. Otherwise im going to snipe the pilot because its open topped.

 

Still, if you told me an actual tank was coming at me, my first instinct isn't to shoot it with a sniper rifle, its to GTFO.

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3) you lose all those aim bonuses and the bonus damage when firing from overwatch though. You're back down to 1d10+4 with however much pen, at base Ballistic skill

 

Its doing less damage per target but still can potentially shoot multiple targets and causing pinning tests.

 

 

Page 226:

 

The Attack:

Step One: Apply Modifiers To Attacker's Characteristic:

...

The GM can also impose additional penalties or bonuses to the test if the situation warrants it.
...
The  maximum total bonus that can be applied to a test is +60. Conversely, the maximum total penalty that can be applied to a test is –60. When adjudicating difficulty, common sense should prevail.
...
Regardless of  the  usual  limits  on  test  penalties,  some  actions  are  simply impossible, and no test is permissible.
 
---
So when a Sniper fights a tank, he deals zero damage.
 
When a Sniper attacks a light vehicle itself, and not the driver, impose a penalty on the test. This represents the sniper trying to hit something critical.
 
I know it's not perfect, but it's still RAW. Impose a Very hard(-30) difficulty for instance for Snipers fighting light vehicles.

 

...what? None of that makes any sense and is certainly not RAW. Why would the attack deal zero damage, hitting the tank is not impossible, it in fact, tends to be pretty easy due to size modifiers,  so the test would be allowed. The 3d10+4+mighty shot(maybe)+ special ammo(maybe) can clearly has the potential to hurt most vehicles so it wouldn't automatically become zero. Even if all that can't get through the armor a righteous fury would still deal 1 point of damage.

Shooting the driver would probably constitute a called shot as it would be a subsection of the vehicle (at least on closed topped vehicles). If not why ever target the vehicle itself with a meltagun, just blow the driver away.

 

 

Ok, I'm lost at how Accuracy can by thought of as over powered.  Back in DH 1st when we started I wanted to do a sniper, after the first few sessions it was clear that sniping was just a waste of time and I got myself two bolt pistols and never picked a sniper rifle up again.

 

Now we have accurate which brings sniping back to something reasonable.

 

So lets have a look compared to an autogun assuming that both hit just as well (5 DoS):

 

Autogun = 1d10 + 3 X5 hits  >  5 chances of righteous fury, 5 shots that have to be evaded - avg = 40 dmg

Sniper Rifle = 1d10 + 4 + 2d10  >  1 chance of righteous fury, 1 shot have to be evaded - avg = 19 dmg

 

If we look at the example previous posted in this thread where the sniper got +20 to aim then then we have:

 

Autogun = 1d10 + 3 X10 hits  >  10 chances of righteous fury, 10 shots that have to be evaded - avg = 80 dmg

Sniper Rifle = 1d10 + 4 + 2d10  >  1 chance of righteous fury, 1 shot have to be evaded - avg = 19 dmg

 
This is since it will take the sniper two rounds to fire.

 

As ColArana pointed out, the to hit chance is much higher for the sniper rifle so it is far more likely to score those 5 DoS or even hit at all. Since it has longer range its also more likely to get the half range bonus. It also has little chance to jam while full auto increases the chance on the autogun.

 

It doesn't take the rifle 2 turns to fire, all the accurate abilities trigger off of half action aims.

Making it just as hard to dodge if not harder than the autogun attack is a simple matter of buying inescapable attack.

Against a target with high armor, high toughness and/or good cover the 19 damage Pen 3 all as one hit can be far better than the multiple weaker hits with no pen and against enemies with lighter defenses both weapons are pretty likely to kill if they score a good to hit roll but as we've established the rifle is better at hitting. It is simply more reliable damage in general than most other weapons and can be on the higher end of potential damage. 

There is also the fact that the autogun runs out of ammo after only 3 full auto bursts while the sniper rifle can fire 20 times.

 

Slight remark, adding a Targeter to a weapon that you want to fire reduces any final penalty by -10.

 

Thus -10 while firing on full-auto becomes 0.

 

Add a Motion Predictor on it and it gives a +10 bonus to the test. I guess that's the equivalent of the Red-Dot Laser Sight, but when firing on Semi or Full-auto mode.

This isn't going to be true most of the time. Targeter only affects the to hit chance if the final modifier is negative after everything else has been applied. So if you are within half range and/or took a half action aim and there are no other situational negative modifiers then the targeter will do nothing as the final modifier will have already been brought to +0 or +10. Motion predictor is the much better choice.

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As ColArana pointed out, the to hit chance is much higher for the sniper rifle so it is far more likely to score those 5 DoS or even hit at all. Since it has longer range its also more likely to get the half range bonus. It also has little chance to jam while full auto increases the chance on the autogun.

It doesn't take the rifle 2 turns to fire, all the accurate abilities trigger off of half action aims.

Making it just as hard to dodge if not harder than the autogun attack is a simple matter of buying inescapable attack.

Against a target with high armor, high toughness and/or good cover the 19 damage Pen 3 all as one hit can be far better than the multiple weaker hits with no pen and against enemies with lighter defenses both weapons are pretty likely to kill if they score a good to hit roll but as we've established the rifle is better at hitting. It is simply more reliable damage in general than most other weapons and can be on the higher end of potential damage. 

There is also the fact that the autogun runs out of ammo after only 3 full auto bursts while the sniper rifle can fire 20 times.

As BillMcDonagh noted above and as I've implied before, sniper rifles don't really scale. They're pretty good for starting weapons, but the problem is that you can't just compare them to starting weapons if you're concerned about the Accurate property. Instead, you have to compare whatever has that property to whatever doesn't - and it turns out that there are a lot of weapons which outclass nearly all* the weapons with Accurate. And several of them (lascannon, autocannon, missile launcher) are even long-range just like sniper weapons. See, what we're doing in your quote above is comparing an autogun to a sniper rifle. This isn't terribly fair not because of anything about the sniper rifle, but because the autogun (and most of other SP weapons, and most of the Las weapons) is in the scum tier** of weapons. Unless you use it for suppressive fire, the autogun is a terrible weapon that you should trade up for at the first opportunity, and even the setting represents that with its availability and flavor text. If you're concerned about taking out a target with high armor/Unnatural Toughness, then either it's above your pay grade (at which point you will be thankful to have a sniper rifle!) or it's an even match for you (by which point you should likely have a kit of heavy armaments).

 

*I say nearly because the Exitus Rifle from DH1E's Ascension was on par with top-tier weapons by virtue of having good base damage/Pen and having special ammunition that made it even better.

**I will sometimes refer to it as the "s*** tier" of weapons but I'm uncertain whether profanity is allowed here, hence "scum tier" instead.

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Slight remark, adding a Targeter to a weapon that you want to fire reduces any final penalty by -10.

 

Thus -10 while firing on full-auto becomes 0.

 

Add a Motion Predictor on it and it gives a +10 bonus to the test. I guess that's the equivalent of the Red-Dot Laser Sight, but when firing on Semi or Full-auto mode.

This isn't going to be true most of the time. Targeter only affects the to hit chance if the final modifier is negative after everything else has been applied. So if you are within half range and/or took a half action aim and there are no other situational negative modifiers then the targeter will do nothing as the final modifier will have already been brought to +0 or +10. Motion predictor is the much better choice.

 

 

For some reason I thought that "final penalty" meant the result of all the negative modifiers counted together, separately from counting all the bonuses together. Both would then determine the final modifier. You're probably right though.

Edited by Gridash

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There is also the fact that the autogun runs out of ammo after only 3 full auto bursts while the sniper rifle can fire 20 times.

 

 

With ammo ejection thingie installed on the autogun and the talent rapid reload you can reload an autogun as a free action, so ammo capacity is quite a minor thing that it is easy to get around.

 

Sniper rifles are strong early game, and becomes weak later on, I dont really think it is a major gripe with this game.

 

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Ok to be clear, I'm not trying to say the autogun is a better weapon, I'm pointing out it has a chance for a higher output overall in some situations, ie crowd control and the sniper rifle is a single target weapon and the only way it can compete at that is with 'Accurate'

 

As to bonuses, the sniper is only, at worst +20 ahead of the autogun and if you claim that a person can't get 5 DoS with an autogun then why have full auto 10, or the auto pistol with full 6, I've even spotted one weapon with full 15. 

 

As to the two rounds, I was referencing the example earlier in this thread, aiming for a +20 is a full action, therefore the sniper has to aim for one round then fire on the next.  In addition to this if he then uses an evasion he loses the aim action.

 

Yes inescapable attack makes it hard to dodge a single attack, but to dodge full or semi requires a number or DoS equal to the hit, so since it's claimed that the autogun uses can't get five DoS's then no one is evading 5 hits.  Also if we are taking talents into consideration then that only increases the damage potential of the autogun firer.

 

As an example:  recoil gauntlets with two weapon wielder = chance of 20 hits, add to this double tap and the second gun is on the same chance as the sniper, with the target been unable to evade.

 

So:

No accurate is not overpowered

No the basic sniper rifle or las should not be one shoting a space marine - 11 defense after pen from the deathwatch reinforcement section.

No the basic sniper rifle should not be taking tanks out - Chimera front 30, side 22, back 16.

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Did you take into your example of how soak works?
With auto/semi weapons having to deal with soak per hit.
Where as the sniper rifle can stack all its extra D10s onto one Hit.

 

That's a big difference that can add up. 

 

My question would be can you count on Autogun Crits enough to ignore the Sniper Rifles big single shot?
I mean 3d10 (One shot) vs 5d10(5 Shots) sounds scary until you start subtracting Cover/Armor/Toughness per shot.
 

Edited by Melil13

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As ColArana pointed out, the to hit chance is much higher for the sniper rifle so it is far more likely to score those 5 DoS or even hit at all. Since it has longer range its also more likely to get the half range bonus. It also has little chance to jam while full auto increases the chance on the autogun.

It doesn't take the rifle 2 turns to fire, all the accurate abilities trigger off of half action aims.

Making it just as hard to dodge if not harder than the autogun attack is a simple matter of buying inescapable attack.

Against a target with high armor, high toughness and/or good cover the 19 damage Pen 3 all as one hit can be far better than the multiple weaker hits with no pen and against enemies with lighter defenses both weapons are pretty likely to kill if they score a good to hit roll but as we've established the rifle is better at hitting. It is simply more reliable damage in general than most other weapons and can be on the higher end of potential damage. 

There is also the fact that the autogun runs out of ammo after only 3 full auto bursts while the sniper rifle can fire 20 times.

As BillMcDonagh noted above and as I've implied before, sniper rifles don't really scale. They're pretty good for starting weapons, but the problem is that you can't just compare them to starting weapons if you're concerned about the Accurate property. Instead, you have to compare whatever has that property to whatever doesn't - and it turns out that there are a lot of weapons which outclass nearly all* the weapons with Accurate. And several of them (lascannon, autocannon, missile launcher) are even long-range just like sniper weapons. See, what we're doing in your quote above is comparing an autogun to a sniper rifle. This isn't terribly fair not because of anything about the sniper rifle, but because the autogun (and most of other SP weapons, and most of the Las weapons) is in the scum tier** of weapons. Unless you use it for suppressive fire, the autogun is a terrible weapon that you should trade up for at the first opportunity, and even the setting represents that with its availability and flavor text. If you're concerned about taking out a target with high armor/Unnatural Toughness, then either it's above your pay grade (at which point you will be thankful to have a sniper rifle!) or it's an even match for you (by which point you should likely have a kit of heavy armaments).

 

*I say nearly because the Exitus Rifle from DH1E's Ascension was on par with top-tier weapons by virtue of having good base damage/Pen and having special ammunition that made it even better.

**I will sometimes refer to it as the "s*** tier" of weapons but I'm uncertain whether profanity is allowed here, hence "scum tier" instead.

 

 

Yeah, the common lasgun and autoguns just aren't very good. If you're talking abstract levels of power, the sniper rifle is in the range with weapons like flamers, grenade launchers (or just grenades), and melee weapons which aren't any harder to get. They each have their own independent roles separate from the sniper rifle and with the exception of melee, draw a lot of controversy. I think people need to realize, that just like on tabletop, the lasgun and autogun are bad weapons, fit only for shooting unarmored thugs or suppressing fire. 

 

Ok to be clear, I'm not trying to say the autogun is a better weapon, I'm pointing out it has a chance for a higher output overall in some situations, ie crowd control and the sniper rifle is a single target weapon and the only way it can compete at that is with 'Accurate'

 

As to bonuses, the sniper is only, at worst +20 ahead of the autogun and if you claim that a person can't get 5 DoS with an autogun then why have full auto 10, or the auto pistol with full 6, I've even spotted one weapon with full 15. 

 

As to the two rounds, I was referencing the example earlier in this thread, aiming for a +20 is a full action, therefore the sniper has to aim for one round then fire on the next.  In addition to this if he then uses an evasion he loses the aim action.

 

Yes inescapable attack makes it hard to dodge a single attack, but to dodge full or semi requires a number or DoS equal to the hit, so since it's claimed that the autogun uses can't get five DoS's then no one is evading 5 hits.  Also if we are taking talents into consideration then that only increases the damage potential of the autogun firer.

 

As an example:  recoil gauntlets with two weapon wielder = chance of 20 hits, add to this double tap and the second gun is on the same chance as the sniper, with the target been unable to evade.

 

So:

No accurate is not overpowered

No the basic sniper rifle or las should not be one shoting a space marine - 11 defense after pen from the deathwatch reinforcement section.

No the basic sniper rifle should not be taking tanks out - Chimera front 30, side 22, back 16.

 

The issue (im hoping) wasn't overall damage, it was basically power out of the gate, as you can get a sniper rifle as a starting acquisition, where as recoil gauntlets and dual wield talents are harder to get than that. As i said though, there are other weapons in this availability tier that are equally debilitating. 

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Keep in mind at the heart this is an investigation game, and as such combat is not the central aspect of the game.

A powerful sorcerer or heretek will have protections that make mere autoguns/Lasguns a joke. I think the standard adventure in the book ends up with a deamon that has 14t ... an auto gun or las gun has no chance of really threatening this thing.

 

The strength of these weapons lies in their ability to cause pining or crit fishing with full auto/semi auto. I would argue that while these weapons are in effective at ending a fight through pure dmg, but they can have a lasting impact on the overall fight. Forcing to keep enemies heads down while the party takes down a necessary target, picks them off one by one or achieves another important objective. On big bad bosses hopefully you packed some man stopper bullets or some other type of ammo for dealing with certain targets, and then you pepper them with it searching for that Righteous Fury, critical dmg can be a serious combat changer.

 

Autoguns and las guns have some of the best ammo upgrades in the game that can rival even the more deadly weapons.
* Peppering the Deamon with Holy Bullets
* Loading up Man Stopper Bullets for armored targets

Ect.

Edited by Melil13

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I just have read the rules of Overwatch and they are quite ridiculous as they allow as much standard attack as you have ammo in your clip, which is absurd.
Though there is a restriction, which is very important. You have a kill zone of 45°. Which is fine for most weapons but I as GM would limit all long range weapons to a 10° zone, as they simply aren't as quick to swivel back and forth.
Which should limit the actual kill zone of a sniper rifle to a realistic zone.

 

And it is up to a GM to decide if a tank can be damaged by any attack a PC makes, regardless of the rules or talents those PC's have.
Player: " I shoot the Land Raider with me super-duper, heavy bullets sniper rifle, WOW 5 DoS, thats 10 damage"
GM: "You see you bullet chip off some paint off the Land Raider."

 

I would allow if this PC to make a shot at the visor of the driver or gunner position of the Land Raider at a -30 penalty if the vehicle is moving, else it would be at -20 at a decent range.

 

As long a I can remember 40k RPG's should be kept in check by GM to keep things 'realistic' to a level which all players feel comfortable with.
 

So yes, I think Sniper rifles should rock vs single targets, unless heavily armoured, like in Terminator Armour. Even power armour has joints and weak spots to target: if you hit a marine dead in the eye with sufficient calibre, you should be able to kill him, though this should be a 1/200 type of success.

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If you think accuracy is overpowered, I suggest the following:

 

- Only give one extra dice for for the first two additional DoS 

 

- let them unlock the second dice with following talent:

Name: Elite Sniper

Tire: 3  

Prerequisites: Marksman, BS 45 

Aptitudes: Ballistic skill, Finesse

 

Buy making them drop a bunch of XP on it, it becomes likely that only the dedicated sniper will go for it. 

Edited by Duskwalker

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You also have the option to rule that the accuracy modifier doesn't work on short range as the target is so close that the zoom-in function is counter productive. Like above this could be something to overcome with a talent purchase.

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You also have the option to rule that the accuracy modifier doesn't work on short range as the target is so close that the zoom-in function is counter productive. Like above this could be something to overcome with a talent purchase.

 

Accurate applies to weapons even without a telescopic sight. i.e. no zoom.

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I've never personally had a problem with Accurate and I'm not sure I totally understand what exactly the problem is. Snipers can damage tank? One-shot NPCs?

 

Can someone just lay out what the issue is most people are having?

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You also have the option to rule that the accuracy modifier doesn't work on short range as the target is so close that the zoom-in function is counter productive. Like above this could be something to overcome with a talent purchase.

 

Accurate applies to weapons even without a telescopic sight. i.e. no zoom.

 

 

Correct, and it begs the question why accurate pistols dont give a damage bonus like their basic counter parts...

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I've never personally had a problem with Accurate and I'm not sure I totally understand what exactly the problem is. Snipers can damage tank? One-shot NPCs?

 

Can someone just lay out what the issue is most people are having?

 

I think it's the tank killing thing.

 

 

 

 

You also have the option to rule that the accuracy modifier doesn't work on short range as the target is so close that the zoom-in function is counter productive. Like above this could be something to overcome with a talent purchase.

 

Accurate applies to weapons even without a telescopic sight. i.e. no zoom.

 

 

Correct, and it begs the question why accurate pistols dont give a damage bonus like their basic counter parts...

 

 

Balance, I presume. And some fluff related to bullet sizes and stuff.

 

Which pistols are accurate, by the way?

Edited by Flail-Bot

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