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Treaty-of-champions

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I have to agree with Zaltyre's assessment.  The hag's damage potential as an Act 2 open group monster is severely underwhelming and they are only three monsters!  Though the idea of hero lock down is scary, consider the fact that the most recovery they can prevent is four health if all three monsters are on the board. 

 

In theory they can be devastating, but if they are locking down heroes in Act 2, then the OL would be winning with a different open group anyways.  Chances are with Lifethirst, heroes will need to perform actual "Revive" actions instead of using skills like "Prayer of Healing" so they can at least get the characters to revive.

 

Heroes like Rendiel, Aurem (with a healing potion), Andira, Ispher and Serena can easily work around Lifethirst.  Also, classes like the Berzerker, and Beastmaster make it less effective.

 

Cursain

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Sure Omnislash there is more than just attack dice- but it is known that FFG does playtesting on these things, so I have to assume this situation has come up. Honestly, this pack is getting purchased whether crow hags are broken or not. When I and more people get it, I'll be interested to see the broad impact of the hags.

Edited by Zaltyre

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Sure Omnislash there is more than just attack dice- but it is known that FFG does playtesting on these things, so I have to assume this situation has come up. Honestly, this pack is getting purchased whether crow hags are broken or not. When I and more people get it, I'll be interested to see the broad impact of the hags.

 

Another excellent point.  Look at the credits for game testing Shadows of Nerekhall alone:

 

Playtesters: Dawson Arthur, Michael Bernabo, Ian Birdsall, John Britton,

Jes Brookes, Nayt Brookes, Jacob Bolton, Jordan Bolton, Mark Burrows,

Christian Busch, Daniel Cervantes, Alejandro Durán, Emeric Dwyer,

Jason Glawe, Jennifer Glawe, Christopher Gustafsu, Trent Hammer,

Daniel Hamrick, Justin Hoeger, Sarah Janssen, Mark Jones, Mark Larson,

Andrew Liberko, Ming-Yee Li, Clarissa Lockrey, Luke Macalus, Darren

Nakamura, Matt Newman, Ben Pletcher, David Puldon, Adam Sadler,

Brady Sadler, Ryan Thompson, Victor Twu, Tom Wirth, Andrew Wylie.

 

We have to assume FFG cares about their product and is serious about a game's balance in which two teams pitch their strategies against one another.

 

I trust FFG's game testing more than other companies, like "Games Workshop".....which technically consider themselves a "modeling company" now, but that's another story.........................................................

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Some elements of clarification from FFG:

 

 Hi FFG, Could you please clarify what happens in the following situations regarding a hero being knocked out:

 

Q: Do familiars still get their bonuses from skill cards of a hero that has been KOed?

A: If the skill card does not require use (i.e. “Use this card…” “Exhaust this card…” or a fatigue cost) than the familiar still gains its bonus from knocked-out heroes’ skill cards.

 

Q: Can a hero use a Valor/Elixir token with the effects from all skill cards of the Champion/Apotecary even if the latter is currently KO?

A: Yes, as previously ruled, another hero can use Valor/Elixir tokens with the effect from skill cards of the Champion/Apothecary even while the Champion/Apothecary is knocked out. (previous ruling: https://boardgamegeek.com/article/12038552#12038552)

 

Q: Does a hero still benefit from extra dices from the Disciple if the Disciple is currently being KO?

A: Yes, a hero still benefits from extra dice granted prior to the Disciple being knocked out.

 

Q: If a KO hero is healed by a health potion, does he regain all health including or excluding bonuses from skill cards?

A: Yes, a knocked-out hero healed by a health potion regains all health including bonuses from skill cards.

 

Q: Generally speaking, can skill cards from a hero being KO still be used by other non-KOed heroes? Assuming they are applicable to other heroes and do not imply the skill owner to be on the map. 

A: Generally speaking, if a card does not require the knocked-out hero to “Use this card…”, “Exhaust this card…”, pay a fatigue cost, or be on the map then that skill is still in effect.

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Alright, answers have we! Indalecio, if you would be so kind as to post those answers, in the FFG Sez thread, that would be great. Between that, corroboration that heroes are off the map when KO, and the reponse about lifethirst, there is now a working understanding of knocked out heroes that can be applied to future situations. I am happy.

Edited by Zaltyre

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Back from vacation. Here's the response I got from FF:

 

Hey Bryan!

Yes, Lifethirst does effect knocked-out heroes. Since a knocked-out hero can be targeted by healing effects, effects that affect the healing effects are still used. Knocked-out heroes are not considered on the map unless targeted by a healing ability and an ability that would affect that healing ability. Knocked-out heroes can be be targeted only by abilities that would allow them to recover any amount of damage. Knocked-out heroes cannot be the target of Overlord cards, unless that card specifically breaks the rule of Overlord cards being unable to target knocked-out heroes (such as how Frenzy breaks the rule of monsters only being able to attack once during their activation). Knocked-out heroes do not roll attribute tests, again, barring any quest-specific rules or cards that specifically note being able to target knocked-out heroes.

I hope this helps!

Thanks for playing,
Kara Centell-Dunk
Game Developer
kcentelldunk@fantasyflightgames.com

 

 

I'm really confused by this answer. Heroes are not considered on the map with the exception of being targeted by healing abilities? Then how do class specific effects work if they aren't on the map? It means they aren't there at all. That's not a satisfactory answer. 

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From the base game rulebook (p 15) we’ve got the following (I bolded some stuff):

 

-When a hero is defeated, he immediately suffers fatigue up to his stamina, damage up to his health (if defeated by some other effect) and the controlling player removes his figure from the map, replacing it with one of his hero tokens. He discards all his condition cards, too.

 

-Attacks and hero abilities cannot target or affect hero tokens, and they cannot receive condition cards. 

 

-Heroes cannot use skills or abilities while knocked out, unless specifically allowed.

 

-Hero players may only target a knocked out hero with an ability that would allow him to recover some amount of wound (clarified in the FAQ as limited to abilities that directly recover wound- giving something to a hero- like the insight token- that then allows that hero to recover wound is a no-no.)

 

-For the healing exception, the knocked out hero’s hero token is treated as a hero. (That is, for all other purposes, hero tokens are NOT considered heroes- which is why you can’t target them with OL cards and the like.)

 

From Indalecio’s questions, we get:

 

Q: Do familiars still get their bonuses from skill cards of a hero that has been KOed?

A: If the skill card does not require use (i.e. “Use this card…” “Exhaust this card…” or a fatigue cost) than the familiar still gains its bonus from knocked-out heroes’ skill cards.

 

Q: Generally speaking, can skill cards from a hero being KO still be used by other non-KOed heroes? Assuming they are applicable to other heroes and do not imply the skill owner to be on the map. 

A: Generally speaking, if a card does not require the knocked-out hero to “Use this card…”, “Exhaust this card…”, pay a fatigue cost, or be on the map then that skill is still in effect.

 

The above is consistent with what’s in the rulebook. It provides for the fact that non-healing abilities that depend on range don’t work, and the hero can’t use (or exhaust) skills. Also, the hero can’t suffer fatigue past his stamina, so he can’t pay fatigue while knocked out.

 

From your question, we’ve got the response that Lifethirst (and OL card Trading Pains) does affect hero tokens because what it’s actually doing is triggering off the healing ability. The hero token is already being treated/targeted as a hero for the healing ability, and Lifethirst (or Trading Pains) is utilizing that trigger for its target.

 

When a hero is knocked out he’s not on the map, but he’s also not out of play completely, as might happen during a Finale. Because of that, his class effects have been ruled as being still “active,” provided they do not specifically depend on him doing something to activate them (paying a cost, exhausting them, using an action) or on his being on the map, since he is not.

Edited by Zaltyre

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So we have a new preview for this pack out today. No changes made at all to the demon lords. Aesthetically I preferred the more feral look of the conversion kit ones. The sword doesn't make as much sense when they are ranged units, either. No biggie though.

Then we have Jonas the Kind. I'm no artist, but I am the only one who thinks the art for him looks really.... odd? The proportions seem wrong.. like he has a huge head or something. It's very distracting... Art seems to be hit/miss on a lot of these packs. The sculpts look nice though. As for his changes, he has +2 health, a changed hero ability and an unchanged heroic feat..

The new hero ability is pretty awful in my view. It is very rare for my heroes not to perform an attack on their turn, especially in a round where they will be taking combat damage. Other healers have powerful auras with no restrictions. So that's a little disappointing. Should have been +2 shields at least given how restrictive it is.

I doubt I will use this hero, but if anyone can think of a viable build for him I'd be curious to know.

Edited by Charmy

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I actually disagree a bit concerning Jonas and his abilities.  There are a fair number of quests whose goal is less attacking and more running and/or going somewhere or targeting something (other than monsters) to achieve something.

 

With Jonas and his abilities, it does allow you to avoid attacks and focus on the goal, while at the same time, getting some defensive buffs.

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Kinda agree with Charmy, Jonas is a bit 'meh' - not bad per say but underwhelming compared to others. Mostly because the heroic ability is reliant on to many variables for my taste (friends have to be within 3, have to not preform an attack, have to be i a position where not attacking wont cost you time/the game) and Jonas has average move and stamina so he is not exactly a speedster of re-positioning or a stamina freak to spam abilities which i feel  the spirit speaker needs. Maybe if it added 2 shields so you could really look to tank some damage i might be a little more enthusiastic.

The heroic feat however is a a huge boost for dealing with hordes, and is far more useful as Jonas gets to chose to do it once in position so the OL has to either run risks with mobbing up or disperse which will probably let heroes maneuver much more easily. And it is still pretty good with large minions whos high attack rolls could really hurt themselves. (quick query, i assume that Jonas player would get to spend any surges the monster has access to with this attack which could be pretty **** beastly)

On paper i think he is a 6 out of 10.
 

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There is a new update for Treaty of Champions: https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2015/12/10/the-shadow-of-death/

 

It includes information for the hero Grey Ker:

 

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and Skeleton Archers:

 

351waxx.png2gvpljd.png

 

The conversion of Grey Ker's ability in D1e to his ability in D2e is very interesting.  I would love to hear some feedback as to how people would use his hero ability.  For me, this seems to open up some interesting possibilities when it comes to using abilities and/or class skill cards that require a certain order of hero turns in a given round.  In addition, how you would use familiars attached to such a hero who can split his turn would bring up interesting possibilities ... as well as the potential need of FAQ entries.  Now add the fact that you could also use his heroic feat for a total of 3 actions during his turn (perhaps 1 action, suspension of turn, and then 2 more actions), and it opens a world of possibilities.

 

I also find the conversion of the Skeleton Archer's ability of Undying from D1e to Reanimation in D2e interesting.

Edited by any2cards

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What is clear is that the familiar would have to activate before his first action or after his last action. It could not activate on the "inside" end of the suspension.

The word "suspend" also seems to imply he would keep MP. Grey Ker would be well countered by the shadowmancer class.

Edited by Zaltyre

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What is clear is that the familiar would have to activate before his first action or after his last action. It could not activate on the "inside" end of the suspension.

The word "suspend" also seems to imply he would keep MP. Grey Ker would be well countered by the shadowmancer class.

 

Hmmm interesting

 

But what if my first action is a move action, i get 4 MP i spend 3 MP

 

Do I have to spend all of my MP to get my first action "Performed"?

 

Tha ability say: ....After you have performed your first action....

 

what do you think?

Edited by Straangeer

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