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Treaty-of-champions

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They do roll a blue die, but I would have liked to see at least a B+Y+Y ranged attack in Act II.

 

After some thoughts I think these monsters are very weak. The ability is nice, but I don't see how I could ever pick these as an open group.

 

Otherwise the master has a nice ability, yes, but:

- We don't know if the Act I variant has the ability.

- She will be shot on sight by the heroes, leaving you with two minions who can certainly run but they don't do anything else and don't tell me Lifethirst 1 will destroy the heroes' healing capabilities...

- Heroes with standard healing capabilties can usually take 2 damage without any problem. As a hero player I would gladly pay 2 life out of 3 remaining to avoid getting Immobilized, Stunned, Cursed or Doomed.

 

I think it's almost certain the Act I version has Death Omen too. Has there ever been a monster where the Act II master has an ability the Act I doesn't?

 

Beyond that, she won't necessarily be shot on sight by the heroes. Her ability kicks in by line of sight, so in long maps she works perfectly well as she can do her ability twice (or once and then move further away). Four damage in two rounds could pick off many mages and healers. And that's just the hags themselves, let alone other monsters you pair them with.

 

They'll also be really, really fun in the Misthall expansion, where KOing a hero is really scary.

 

I think the attack dice they gave them is perfect, personally. Anything higher may have been too strong. These aren't damage-dealing enemies.

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Upon further inspection: Two Minions and one Master. If they are all within 5 spaces of a Koed hero, he needs to roll FIVE hearts to even stand up. These things are not going anywhere near group campaigns because that is WAY too OP. So what if they roll a Blue and Yellow, there are enough enhancement effects in this game to change that. They also have 7/9 HP and use a black defense die. I can see situations where these things are just standing around, locking the hero side down because nobody can actually stand up and the OL just does his merry business.

 

No thank you.

Crow hags have inspired an important rule question that will affect their balance significantly. Namely, I do not know if their ability will affect standup, because their ability is not a health recovering one, so it may not b able to target hero tokens. Just a thought. The same reasoning applies to the punisher's trading pains. I'll post an answer when i get it.

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I think it's almost certain the Act I version has Death Omen too. Has there ever been a monster where the Act II master has an ability the Act I doesn't?

Yes, there are : Dark Priests and Crypt dragons : Horrifyied in act 2 but not in act 1. Haven't found other exceptions yet

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Upon further inspection: Two Minions and one Master. If they are all within 5 spaces of a Koed hero, he needs to roll FIVE hearts to even stand up. These things are not going anywhere near group campaigns because that is WAY too OP. So what if they roll a Blue and Yellow, there are enough enhancement effects in this game to change that. They also have 7/9 HP and use a black defense die. I can see situations where these things are just standing around, locking the hero side down because nobody can actually stand up and the OL just does his merry business.

 

No thank you.

Crow hags have inspired an important rule question that will affect their balance significantly. Namely, I do not know if their ability will affect standup, because their ability is not a health recovering one, so it may not b able to target hero tokens. Just a thought. The same reasoning applies to the punisher's trading pains. I'll post an answer when i get it.

 

I dont think it will affect knocked out heroes, heroes have to be within 5 spaces for lifeleech to occur, tokens are not heroes so no issue there. The stand up rules clearly state roll for recovery then place hero (so hero will be there with health already recovered.)

I still think that the ability is nuts and well worth having and dosent diminish the options in any real way, recovered heroes are incredibly squishy and making it harder to get them back to survivable levels is still great.

It just means they are not broken out of the box.

If it DOES work on KO'ed heroes they are just evil.

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Upon further inspection: Two Minions and one Master. If they are all within 5 spaces of a Koed hero, he needs to roll FIVE hearts to even stand up. These things are not going anywhere near group campaigns because that is WAY too OP. So what if they roll a Blue and Yellow, there are enough enhancement effects in this game to change that. They also have 7/9 HP and use a black defense die. I can see situations where these things are just standing around, locking the hero side down because nobody can actually stand up and the OL just does his merry business.

 

No thank you.

Crow hags have inspired an important rule question that will affect their balance significantly. Namely, I do not know if their ability will affect standup, because their ability is not a health recovering one, so it may not b able to target hero tokens. Just a thought. The same reasoning applies to the punisher's trading pains. I'll post an answer when i get it.

 

 

I for one appreciate this Zalt. To tell the truth, I was going to ask them officially myself. 

 

Knocked out Heroes can in effect recover health from potions and hero abilities or effects in addition to becoming revived, although his hero token is what is on the board. Because the Hag effects Heroes and not hero figures, I see no reason why the Hag's effect wouldn't fall into the same category. That being said, this IS something FF needs to answer and clearly.

 

While we're on the subject, I want to know IF the Hag's effect stacks. That is, if there are two Hags in range, they both have Lifethirst 1, so does that equal Lifethirst 2 on the same hero? I see no reason why that wouldn't be the case either. 

 

Other then this, It's nice seeing a new H&M announced. The figures look nifty. 

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demons will have made a long way before comming back

 

i'm still amused by the fact that all big monsters with wings doesn't have fly ... it's purely decorative

 

I hope the monster shown is not the real one, in the artwork he has the hand uprised with fire on it, and the miniature shows him the arm down with no fire

Edited by rugal

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Omnislash- the distinction comes from a little box in the top right of rulebook pg15 labeled "knocked out heroes." 

 

While monster attacks cannot target or affect a knocked out
hero, hero players may only target a knocked out hero with an
ability that would allow the knocked out hero to recover any
amount of damage. For this exception, the knocked out hero’s
hero token is treated as a hero even if another figure occupies
the space containing the hero token.
 
This block of text has been taken to mean that monster abilities also cannot target knocked out heroes, but the question will hopefully answer that unambiguously.
Edited by Zaltyre

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Lifethirst sounds definitely like it would stack, when triggering from different monsters. I would be VERY surprised if it didn't.

The question however is if you could give Lifethirst ability to a monster (through a card) who already has Lifethirst, would both abilities stack I´m not too sure anymore.

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I'm really excited by the fact that an entirely new monster type has been added to Descent. However, I will await the ruling on whether they are actually good or not.

 

The text description from the post strongly suggests that Lifethirst *does* stack for multiple hags. However, whether it affects hero tokens is the next question. If it stacks and affects hero tokens, I would consider them a risky, but playable monster in some situations. Being able to severely curtail hero revival is quite powerful.

 

If Lifethirst doesn't affect hero tokens then I'd say they're weak and I'd pretty much always prefer a different group. The civilized and dark trait slots have steep competition.

 

I completely agree with Indalecio on this point:

 

Thing is, I´m not too sure anymore there is such thing as monster groups supporting each other in Descent. I wish there was, but in practice your monster groups often start being scattered around the map, and heroes normally get their numbers down by the time they can unite.

 

I have played through most of the game content and it is not often that you will be able to get monsters to support one another within the same battle. Its even more rare to have multiple *open* groups with placement that allows for complimentary pairings.

 

Given that, a monster group must be strong in and of itself to be all that usable. In Act II, having such terribly weak attacks (I shudder to think what their Act I attack is like..) and few numbers means they will be unlikely to penetrate the heroes' armor and could even be ignored. The heroes don't need to heal from these things if they aren't taking damage.
 

I still would like to try them in the role of passive harassment if a map supports it. Since their ability doesn't require LoS and has decent range, they might work by acting as cautious monsters that wait in the wings until the heroes have engaged bigger threats. Then, they can use their high speed to swoop in and provide the healing debuff from around corners or from high ground.

 

Still, that means you have one less monster group overall directly confronting the heroes. Does the healing debuff make up for that? I'm skeptical.

 

Maybe the included quest maps will allow for such tactics.. we'll have to see.

Edited by Charmy

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On another note, Zyla will be one heckuva quick mage. Stanima of 5, Speed of 5, can walk through terrain and enemy figures.

 

We also have Skeleton Archers, a monster people have been awaiting for awhile. Looks like they'll have something to nicely compliment Mists of Bilehall.   

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I agree with Underworld: the heroes are not on the map when knocked out, the token merely represents where they have fallen. Knocked out heroes, rules as written, would not be affected by that ability, as the hp recovery occurs before they are placed back on the map.

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Actually the heroes are on the map when they are knocked out.  

 

I'm going to quote rules here and give you the best interpretation that I can give. 

 

Page 15 of the Rulebook:

 

Defeated

 

When a hero or monster suffers damage equal to or greater than its Health, it is defeated. Unless specified differently in a given quest, when a monster is defeated, it is simply removed from the map and is no longer in play. When a hero is defeated, he is knocked out.

 

The hero is not removed from the map when he is defeated. He is simply in the state of being knocked out. 

 

Knocked out

 

When a hero is defeated, he immediately suffers fatigue up to his Stamina, damage up to his Health (if defeated by some other effect), and the controlling player removes his figure from the map, replacing it with one of his hero tokens. The hero player discards any Condition cards he has and the overlord player may immediately draw one Overlord card. A hero cannot use skills or abilities while knocked out, unless an effect specifically allows it.

 

The figure of the hero is removed from the map, replaced by a hero token. But the hero is still technically on the map.

 

Heroes cannot suffer fatigue past their Stamina value, nor damage past their Health value—even when knocked out. A knocked out hero cannot receive any Condition cards and is immune to all attacks and most hero abilities.

 

Can't be attacked. Immune to most ( but not all) hero abilities. 

 

A space containing a knocked out hero (represented by a hero token) is considered to be empty to other figures for the purposes of movement. In other words, any figure may move through and end its movement in that space. Also, knocked out heroes do not block line of sight.

 

Hero Tokens don't block movement or line of sight. Hero Tokens are placed to remind us of this in addition to giving us the location of where the hero is located. 

 

A knocked out hero may still recover damage from other heroes through the use of skills, potions, and being revived (see “Revive a Hero” on page 10). If a knocked out hero recovers at least one damage, he immediately replaces his hero token with his figure and may perform actions as normal on his next turn.

 

To replace the hero token with the figure, the hero has to at least remove one damage. And so here lies the crux of the matter.

 

The Box as Zaltyre quoted above:

 

Knocked Out Heroes

 

While monster attacks cannot target or affect a knocked out hero, hero players may only target a knocked out hero with an ability that would allow the knocked out hero to recover any amount of damage. For this exception, the knocked out hero’s hero token is treated as a hero even if another figure occupies the space containing the hero token.

 

Monster attacks cannot effect a Knocked out hero. However Lifethirst is not an attack but an ability that triggers when a hero removes damage. This is the really question then.

 

To quote the Hag's ability:

 

Lifethirst X: Whenever a hero within 5 spaces of this monster recovers one or more hearts, that hero reduces the amount of hearts recovered by X. (to a minimum of 0 ) 

 

The knocked out hero is on the board. He's technically a target for this ability. The ability triggers whenever he gains life. However the Life gain happens when he is Knocked out, before he replaces his figure. So the question that truly needs to be answered is can this ability target the knocked out hero? It does say that heroes using healing abilities on knocked out heroes is an exception, so that might be your answer right there.

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While we are on the subject. I've played the game with the mindset that Knocked out heroes also cannot be targeted by Overlord cards or effects that force them to roll attribute tests. For instance, Basic II often uses cards that target specific heroes, but I've always considered heroes to be ineligible targets when Koed. So it will be interesting how FF actually answers this question.  

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While we are on the subject. I've played the game with the mindset that Knocked out heroes also cannot be targeted by Overlord cards or effects that force them to roll attribute tests. For instance, Basic II often uses cards that target specific heroes, but I've always considered heroes to be ineligible targets when Koed. So it will be interesting how FF actually answers this question.  

That one I have asked about before- targeting heroes for attribute tests is a no-no. I am pretty sure that hero tokens only count as "heroes" for abilities that are directly about health recovery- even abilities where health recovery is a secondary effect (giving that hero the insight token so that he recovers damage) don't work, for example.

 

What I'm mostly curious about is whether or not the hero token remains a hero token until it has finished recovering health, or once it's recovering health it's a hero again, so lifethirst applies- it's a thin distinction.

Edited by Zaltyre

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I see it as a rather big problem that the rules are actually very specific about everything a knocked down hero can't do or cannot be affected by - and that apparently it is a weird consensus that this rule, without stating so in any official, finalized document also covers other situations.

The official FAQ does for example clarify about families also being counted as heroes for monster abilities and such, which was not explictly stated (while other things were) in the rules.

 

I have to say I always find it a bit hard to accept when there is on the one hand an understanding that the rules work exactly as they are written (Immobilized explicitly forbidding fatigue move and movement actions but nothing else) and on the other that there is a "spirit of the rule" that goes beyond what is stated.

 

It is either the one or the other, we can have a straightforward literalism of rules or it can be understood with a "spirit of the rules" attitude that things which should not work do not work.

 

There is also a very big problem of counter intuitive rulings.

 

If Life Thirst does not affect reviving or a standup action, it will baffle anyone who reads it and thinks "okay, healing is healing".

Special case rules should have good reasons, the game already has too many cases of things ending in arguments because people cannot agree on rules.

 

 

 

The thing is though, if life thirst affects knocked down heroes, it really is hard to then argue why Blinding Speed, the Ettin's throw ability or other things that cause neither damage nor conditions or fatigue are not allowed.

It is already weird enough, that a monster with a surge ability that moves a hero cannot just attack the knocked down hero and move him somewhere.

 

And there is also the fact that passive abilities make a rather complicated case.

 

"A hero cannot use skills or abilities while knocked out, unless an effect
specifically allows it."

 

Bard Songs and other passive abilities like Leoric's hero ability seem to be inactive while the hero is knocked down, but what about some other abilities?

 

Does Vampiric Blood still give the reanimate an extra yellow dice when the Necromancer is knocked down?

Can a hero still discard an elixir token to heal when the Apothecary is knocked down, can he do the same for a valor token?

 

Right now, being knocked down is VERY messy.

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Knocked out heroes are not on the map. They are only considered to be on the map for abilities which directly recover health for them. The only class cards of knocked out heroes that can be used are those which specify they can be used whilst knocked out. So:

Monsters cannot attack/move KO heroes.

Vampiric blood- no yellow.

No spending elixir, or valor, or hex, or insight.

Familiars can still activate, but cannot use class abilities or any of your weapons.

Also, they cannot activate after you stand up since your turn immediately ends.

Edited by Zaltyre

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Knocked out heroes are not on the map. They are only considered to be on the map for abilities which directly recover health for them. The only class cards of knocked out heroes that can be used are those which specify they can be used whilst knocked out. So:

Monsters cannot attack/move KO heroes.

Vampiric blood- no yellow.

No spending elixir, or valor, or hex, or insight.

Familiars can still activate, but cannot use class abilities or any of your weapons.

Also, they cannot activate after you stand up since your turn immediately ends.

 

Actually, Elixir tokens should definitely work:

 

 

Any hero with an elixir token has the option of discarding it at any point

during his turn to recover damage. This ability is printed on the “Brew

Elixir” Apothecary Class card as a reminder. When a hero discards an

elixir token, he rolls one red power die and recovers damage equal to the

� rolled on the die. A knocked out hero cannot discard an elixir token

during his turn.

 

But that aside, the idea of things like familiar enhancements no longer working is pretty ridiculous.

You would then get situation like the wolf familiar being defeated when the hero is because he suddenly has less health (and same with the reanimate by the way).

 

Also, while it has often been cited from a fantasy flight employee answer, nowhere in the rules OR the FAQ have I ever seen a line that actually states that a hero who is knocked out is NOT on the map, the whole section has just a few posts ago been extensively and completely quoted, I see nothing to that effect there.

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Actually, Elixir tokens should definitely work:

 

Any hero with an elixir token has the option of discarding it at any point

during his turn to recover damage. This ability is printed on the “Brew

Elixir” Apothecary Class card as a reminder. When a hero discards an

elixir token, he rolls one red power die and recovers damage equal to the

� rolled on the die. A knocked out hero cannot discard an elixir token

during his turn.

Wut?

Edited by Atom4geVampire

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Actually, Elixir tokens should definitely work: 

Any hero with an elixir token has the option of discarding it at any pointduring his turn to recover damage. This ability is printed on the “BrewElixir” Apothecary Class card as a reminder. When a hero discards anelixir token, he rolls one red power die and recovers damage equal to the� rolled on the die. A knocked out hero cannot discard an elixir tokenduring his turn.

Wut?
he cant discard it because hes not on the map so the only action he can make is to stand up so no dicarding elixir tokens

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Yeah but Zaltyre says you can't use them, to which Unkown X replies that they should work, while he at the same time posts a quote which explicitly says that they can't be used... :P

(Or did I understand this wrong?)

Edited by Atom4geVampire

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Yeah but Zaltyre says you can't use them, to which Unkown X replies that they should work, while he at the same time posts a quote which explicitly says that they can't be used... :P

(Or did I understand this wrong?)

 

The question was whether or not ANOTHER hero (not knocked down) can use an elixir token while the apothecary is currently knocked down.

As it is stated in the rules that hero can discard an elixir token to recover health, this would work, iot is explicitly said it is just printed on the card as a reminder.

 

HOWEVER, by the logic that other passive skills do not work, a hero could not roll the extra dice for potent remedies and recover fatigue for the surges rolled while the apothecary is knocked down...

 

This should show that generally not letting all passive skills work while a hero is knocked down is silly...

It leads to a lot of special cases and things that will puzzle people who do not extensively study the rules.

 

Rules are meant first and foremost to emulate the theme of a game, the things we imagine to happen as we play.

Descent alas has a couple of occasions where it gets hard to imagine why things work the way the rules make them work, movement and immobilize, an Ettin possibly not being able to pick up and throw someone he just clobbered to the ground while being able to throw him first and then clobber him.

 

There are cases (as with the criticized line of sight rules) where it is simply the best compromise to make the game fun and easy to play, but there are also cases where frankly, it is just a mess of arbitrary decisions.

 

 

he cant discard it because hes not on the map so the only action he can make is to stand up so no dicarding elixir tokens

 

Again, I want to point out that this has so far neither appeared in the FAQ nor in the basic rules.

I prefer not to understand the passage that way as long as it is not put in the FAQ and Errata as it does make a difference.

Edited by Unknown X

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I am indeed suggesting that if you have the "you and your wolf gain +4 health" skill,  the wolf may be knocked out when you are knocked out because it loses 4 health (if it had fewer than 4 health remaining.) I am also suggesting that the reanimate would lose his yellow die, the stones would lose speed and a gray die if you have stone tongue, etc. That is, your skills are not active when you are knocked out- even the ones that don't cost anything to activate. The only exception to this are skills which say "while you are knocked out..."

Edited by Zaltyre

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