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Baer

Does provoke prevent passing?

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Provoke : 

 

 

 

Use after you resolve an activation to choose a hostile figure adjacent to one of your Troopers or Guardians. That figure's group must activate next if able.

 

If I provoke a unit of my opponent and he could skip his activation, would he be allowed to skip a turn and activate the provoked figure with his next activation or does the "must" in provoke prevents the opponent from skipping his turn?

 

For Reference the ruling on skipping a turn :

The “Activation Phase” entry on page 3 should include the following bullet:

“During a skirmish, if your opponent has more ready Deployment cards than you, you may choose not to activate a group and pass play to your opponent.”

Edited by Baer

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Provoke : 

 

 

 

Use after you resolve an activation to choose a hostile figure adjacent to one of your Troopers or Guardians. That figure's group must activate next if able.

 

If I provoke a unit of my opponent and he could skip his activation, would he be allowed to skip a turn and activate the provoked figure with his next activation or does the "must" in provoke prevents the opponent from skipping his turn?

 

For Reference the ruling on skipping a turn :

 

 

The “Activation Phase” entry on page 3 should include the following bullet:

“During a skirmish, if your opponent has more ready Deployment cards than you, you may choose not to activate a group and pass play to your opponent.”

 

 

My view is that while he would normally have the choice of activating any ready deployment cards or passing, he cannot choose to pass or activate any other deployment cards than the Provoked figure.

 

Provoke essentially says you "must activate that group next", which overrides the "may pass" option in the same way it overrides the ability to chose any other deployment cards also...

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Thats my view too on this, just coming from Game of Thrones where everytime MUST >> MAY . But I had an discussion with an friend last night and he still arguments for passing is possible. 

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Thats my view too on this, just coming from Game of Thrones where everytime MUST >> MAY . But I had an discussion with an friend last night and he still arguments for passing is possible. 

 

I'd like to hear what argument he made for his side of the discussion, but this one seems pretty cut and dry by the RAW rules.

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One could say, that the next activation must be that figure, but a pass is not an activation. Therefore, he could pass an then activate this next.

 

I wouldn't do this myself, but I think that this would be a legit argument.

 

Therefore, I would suggest to send this question to FFG directly ...

Edited by DerBaer

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One could say, that the next activation must be that figure, but a pass is not an activation. Therefore, he could pass an then activate this next.

 

I wouldn't do this myself, but I think that this would be a legit argument.

 

Therefore, I would suggest to send this question to FFG directly ...

 

I see what you're saying, but the wording on Provoke is pretty clear. "must activate next if able".

It doesn't say the "next activation must be this unit". which could be circumvented by postponing the activation in the Pass option.

This explicitly says that the next thing to occur must be this unit's activation, if able.

If you pass then the activation did not happen, and you have not followed the rule put in place by Provoke.

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I can play both sides of the argument given.  I think the thing to keep in mind though was the wording for provoke was determined before passing was an option.  If provoke had been released after the ruling (say in Return to Hoth) then I'd 100% be on board that it supersedes the pass.  As it is I think it's definitely a question to go to FFG for an official ruling, perhaps the wording will be changed.

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I can play both sides of the argument given.  I think the thing to keep in mind though was the wording for provoke was determined before passing was an option.  If provoke had been released after the ruling (say in Return to Hoth) then I'd 100% be on board that it supersedes the pass.  As it is I think it's definitely a question to go to FFG for an official ruling, perhaps the wording will be changed.

 

I agree that it's best to get a confirmation on the intended working of the card from FFG themselves. In light of the new pass rule.

 

But as the card is written, it currently forces a player to act with that unit next, even if they have fewer units and could (now) choose to pass.

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Not that my take counts (oh wait, it does), but in this situation the player would still be able to pass based on the new passing rule. The provoked unit would be required to be the next activated unit after the player chooses not to pass.

 

The entire point of the new passing rule is so that skirmish forces that have an excessive number of activations do not have an insane tactical advantage over skirmish forces that have few activations. When provoke was written, the passing rules did not exist, but the wording is such that one can easily see it both ways (must activate next, if able). If you pass, you aren't activating anything, therefore you are not able to activate that unit.

 

One could reason the timing structure as follows:

 

1) Player 1's activation phase starts.

2) Player 1 checks activation count. If player 1 has less activations, she may choose to activate (go to 3) or pass (go to 4)

3) Player 1 chooses to activate. Chooses unit to activate, resolves activation.

4) Play passes to player 2.

Edited by Fizz

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Wow, didn't read all the answers but here is the official ffg statement.

Here is our developer’s reply:

Provoke would override the ability to pass because the targeted figure would still be able to activate. So, the player who had been “Provoked” would not be allowed to pass.

Thank you,

Megan Duehn

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That was his argument

One could say, that the next activation must be that figure, but a pass is not an activation. Therefore, he could pass an then activate this next.

 

I wouldn't do this myself, but I think that this would be a legit argument.

 

Therefore, I would suggest to send this question to FFG directly ...

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What an odd ruling. Kinda flies in the face of the reason they added the pass in the first place.

 

I don't see that at all. The ruling was to prevent lists with a lower number of activations from always being at a disadvantage from being unable to hold units from activate until later in the round. Provoke is a command card that can only have one copy brought. Its purpose is to force a specific unit to act immediately. It can provide a one time advantage.

The ruling makes perfect sense. If the player that controlled the unit that was the target of Provoke was able to circumvent it by passing then Provoke would only ever be useful if you had the same or less activations remaining. That would be way to weak for a 1 point command card.

  

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In a pre-pass environment, Provoke merely forced one's hand into activating a specific unit next. Now in a post-pass environment, this ruling can really make things ugly for low activation lists.

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In a pre-pass environment, Provoke merely forced one's hand into activating a specific unit next. Now in a post-pass environment, this ruling can really make things ugly for low activation lists.

It's no worse for a low activation list than it was before the change. The low activation player can still stall the rest of their activations.

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I suppose you have a point there. After all, it is only one card that pre-pass probably got little use, and now will probably become a staple card for high activation lists.

Edited by Fizz

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There are going to be a lot of things that are biased against low activation lists. Just look at Take the Initiative. Not only is the opportunity cost higher to play it. Any of the cards that require an action to use are harder for low activation lists to make use of as well.

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I suppose you have a point there. After all, it is only one card that pre-pass probably got little use, and now will probably become a staple card for high activation lists.

It seems like a solid card even before the pass changes. It can be used to either force an opponent to activate a unit that you want to move early or you can use it to keep them from activating a particular unit.

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