Niman and Soresu Techniques

[Lorne 2,021]

As it stands, you can use Brawn overall, but are forced to use a dump stat for two of their defining abilities, which would suck.

 

Why would it suck?  They're not opposed checks, just Hard checks.  2 yellows and a green (base Int of 2 and 3 skill ranks) can easily make that.

[kaosoe 7,573]

There are many active talents in Soresu defender, but only the ones that specifically have you make a Lightsaber (Intellect) check force you to use Intellect over another technique. These specs are Soresu Technique, Defensive Circle, and Strategic Form (I'm AFB so cannot confirm those are the correct talents).

 

If you would rather use your Brawn over Agility, consider investing in the Shii Cho Knight specialization. It will mesh well with your character concept and only at an additional 10XP over the normal cost. Or simply start out in Shii Cho, if you wanted to start out with a lightsaber spec.

 

Or talk to your GM about a house rule. As long as everyone at your table agrees on changing out Int with Br, then it does not matter what RAW or any of us here say.

Edited August 11, 2015 by kaosoe

[awayputurwpn 7,720]

By the way, anyone else here notice that Cereans seem custom made to be Guardians?

 

Ki-Adi Mundi of Legend was both a Jedi Guardian and a Soresu practitioner (along with Ataru and Makashi of course, being an accomplished combatant). So the shoe fits! 

[Emperor Norton 397]

I think a Drall Guardian would be cool. :| (probably need to buy up enhance to keep from suffering too much from low brawn/agility).

Edited August 11, 2015 by Emperor Norton

[Darth Attila 3]

I actually kind of like Soresu.  If you're doing it right, the only time you should ever roll your lightsaber skill is for those two talents.  And a hard check isn't that bad if you have moderate skill.  It's all about smacking them back in the face.  If you're focusing on the int part you are missing the entire point of the tree.  Sure it's a bit out of place but a lot of trees have a skill or two that seems out of place.  What I see is being able to take a 9 damage hit and parry/soak it off with only a brawn of 2.

[Dbuntu 522]

I don't know the background well enough to say (book is not yet out in the UK), but from a rules-balance point of view it sounds sensible. You don't want a character to be able to use one stat for all their best stuff.

 

Well a player picking Niman will get a serious benefit from jacking up their Willpower since it is the characteristic for both their Lightsaber skill and their Force Powers. I think it's also the only spec to get both Dedication and Force Rating talents.

[Algetzz 28]

Can't really say anything that hasn't already been said, but I wanted to throw in my two cents anyway.

In terms of the theme of the career, I totally agree with infusco, in fact I distinctly remember flipping though the book the first time and thinking it odd that soresu used Int.

IMO, Guardian = willpower + brawn. Physically tough, mentally stallwart (to the point of stubborness). That is just how I invision the career. Sure it's more convenient for the Consular to use Willpower, as force powers scale off Will, and that even makes sense to an extent (Niman incorporates force powers into its technique), but I totally agree that it was probably the devs being willfully stubborn (Hah!) on giving each form a different characteristic.

That said, I also agree with those who are saying that it isn't that damaging for the guardian to be as written. The Soresu Technique talent is worded as "...the character MAY use Intellect instead of Brawn," so while the primary talents of the tree force you to roll Int, by the time you get to those abilities your lightsaber skill should help compensate for average Int (maybe you flip a Destiny Point to upgrade your roll). For your standard swing at some street toughs picking on inocent Twi'lek dancers, by all means hack away at 'em with your superior Brawn.

[Algetzz 28]

I would also like to add that the Strategic Form is respectable attempt to justify using the Int characteristic for the form (not to mention it is probably the most potent talent in the tree). Strategic. Strategy. Intelligence. I'll concede that one to the devs it makes sense.

Defensive Circle? ...eh, not so much (thematically of course).

Good topic, I enjoyed reading and participating =}

Edited August 12, 2015 by Algetzz

[Jereru 171]

Well, Defensive Circle is, to me, quite a sub-par talent anyway - I'm not even going to purchase it.

[infusco 91]

Defensive Circle is pretty **** potent if you're going full on defense and paired with some nearby buddies. Use a guarded stance maneuver against a lightsaber wielding inquisitor in front of you, use Defensive Circle to add defense, and then only blow a single Strain to parry attacks and possibly counter attack since you're not using your own action to do a combat check that turn.

 

Or replace Guarded Stance with Defensive Stance if you really want them to roll Despairs

Edited August 13, 2015 by infusco

[LordBritish 1,016]

I personally feel that using stats other then brawn or agility is a bit odd, because no amount of qualities replaces being fit or exceptionally quardinated. Without either of those qualities one shouldn't have a boost since none of the other four qualities actually make sense as combat stats. Because plans. Florishes and complex techniques simply don't work unless one has the personal training to make it work since either their body or mind simply won't preform as expected in a highly charged sitatuion. It's the same reason why commentators and armchair spectators might enjoy and know everything about the sport, but not necessarily have the capabilities to play it.

I feel I am a minority in that sense, and my campaign will use rules as written just I'm not content that the rules as written make sense. If one is not naturally gifted, that's what dedication/lightsaber skill should be here for.

[Lorne 2,021]

I personally feel that using stats other then brawn or agility is a bit odd, because no amount of qualities replaces being fit or exceptionally quardinated. Without either of those qualities one shouldn't have a boost since none of the other four qualities actually make sense as combat stats. Because plans. Florishes and complex techniques simply don't work unless one has the personal training to make it work since either their body or mind simply won't preform as expected in a highly charged sitatuion. It's the same reason why commentators and armchair spectators might enjoy and know everything about the sport, but not necessarily have the capabilities to play it.

I feel I am a minority in that sense, and my campaign will use rules as written just I'm not content that the rules as written make sense. If one is not naturally gifted, that's what dedication/lightsaber skill should be here for.

 

Ah, but remember that those are Force talents, so your being stronger or faster has nothing to do with your muscles in that case. Do you think that's air you're breathing now?

Edited August 13, 2015 by Lorne

[awayputurwpn 7,720]

 

I personally feel that using stats other then brawn or agility is a bit odd, because no amount of qualities replaces being fit or exceptionally quardinated. Without either of those qualities one shouldn't have a boost since none of the other four qualities actually make sense as combat stats. Because plans. Florishes and complex techniques simply don't work unless one has the personal training to make it work since either their body or mind simply won't preform as expected in a highly charged sitatuion. It's the same reason why commentators and armchair spectators might enjoy and know everything about the sport, but not necessarily have the capabilities to play it.

I feel I am a minority in that sense, and my campaign will use rules as written just I'm not content that the rules as written make sense. If one is not naturally gifted, that's what dedication/lightsaber skill should be here for.

 

Ah, but remember that those are Force talents, so you're being stronger or faster has nothing to do with your muscles in that case. Do you think that's air you're breathing now?

 

 

This came into sharp focus when I was playing in a recent FaD PbP game. We were fighting in an area that was strong with the dark side, such that if we used any Force talents or Force powers, it inflicted 1 automatic strain. So every time someone used a Lightsaber "Technique" talent, they took 1 strain. 

 

You can do a lot of fun things with Force talents that you can't do with regular talents!

[Lorne 2,021]

We were fighting in an area that was strong with the dark side, such that if we used any Force talents or Force powers, it inflicted 1 automatic strain. 

 

I am sooo stealing that idea, except it'll be 1 point of strain or Conflict.  /cackle

[FuriousGreg 1,667]

This is really only an issue for Min-Maxers. Make more diverse PCs and it ceases to be an issue.

[awayputurwpn 7,720]

 

We were fighting in an area that was strong with the dark side, such that if we used any Force talents or Force powers, it inflicted 1 automatic strain. 

 

I am sooo stealing that idea, except it'll be 1 point of strain or Conflict.  /cackle

 

 

It also added an automatic Threat to each action we took!

 

I like the Conflict idea as well; I think I'd have gone with an auto Threat for each action and 1 Conflict for each Force usage. Depending on the strength of the dark side nexus, of course.

[Franigo 252]

I personally feel that using stats other then brawn or agility is a bit odd, because no amount of qualities replaces being fit or exceptionally quardinated.

 

So, Yoda is very brawny or agile? ...

 

It is quite obvious that Lightsaber combat is more about the Force than anything else. Palpatine is not a dangerous combatant because he goes to the gym each day. Some Jedi / Sith are very fit, other obviously not so, but neither says much about how good at lightsabering they are.

[Algetzz 28]

This is really only an issue for Min-Maxers. Make more diverse PCs and it ceases to be an issue.

 

Eh, see I disagree. My biggest issue with using Int with soresu was that the flavor feels off to me. As I already posted there are ways for min/max-ers to get around the shortcomings, mechanically speaking, but even they need to jump through some hoops.

For your average and advanced/optimizing player it just feels... awkward. As infusco already pointed out, it feels like the devs really wanted to push the whole one-characteristic-for-each-saber-form thing. 

 

Regardless, I am eager to play with it now, both from a highly narrative/role-playing perspective, and also from an optimization standpoint. Was thinking a Wookie Protector that will pickup soresu for his form for the narrative one, and then perhaps a Cerean Artisan that cross-specs into soresu for the Lightsaber(Intellect) bonus.

[Jereru 171]

Defensive Circle is pretty **** potent if you're going full on defense and paired with some nearby buddies. Use a guarded stance maneuver against a lightsaber wielding inquisitor in front of you, use Defensive Circle to add defense, and then only blow a single Strain to parry attacks and possibly counter attack since you're not using your own action to do a combat check that turn.

 

Or replace Guarded Stance with Defensive Stance if you really want them to roll Despairs

 

Defensive Circle adds Defense, not Ranged Defense or Melee Defense, so is not easy to stack. It doesn't stack with Guarded Stance, and rolling Despairs due to Defensive Stance doesn't rely on using Defensive Circle or not.

When you reach the bottom of the tree, you'll probably want to use Strategic Form, which will force enemies to attack you (and it's not a Combat Check either) instead of trying to add Defense to your team mates and probably having stack issues. At least that's what I think at first glance.

[LordBritish 1,016]

Good point, never though about it that way.

[LordBritish 1,016]

I personally feel that using stats other then brawn or agility is a bit odd, because no amount of qualities replaces being fit or exceptionally quardinated.

 

So, Yoda is very brawny or agile? ...

 

It is quite obvious that Lightsaber combat is more about the Force than anything else. Palpatine is not a dangerous combatant because he goes to the gym each day. Some Jedi / Sith are very fit, other obviously not so, but neither says much about how good at lightsabering they are.

Ehh, there's no mechanical debuffs for ageing and given that he's definitely not a PC probably has a fair amount of lightsaber skill (4/5) with an agility and brawn of 1. He uses a super version of enhance to give himself a double boost in agility. For me yoda is nothing without the force, but strong is his connection with it is that he can make up for a lack of physical strength from his connection.

And given how monks are generally fairly fit, it could go either way. It's still hugely beneficial to have brawn since that dictates physical endurance (soak) and most Jedi that survived up to 66 were incredibly fit. Dooku didn't have to be as he rarely had to fight, though I guess hat solves my concern, even with a gigantic presence, his soak would be practically nothing.

[Lareg 367]

In my opinion the developers decided the various charcteristic to assign to each Form's technique also based on the general feeling of the entire class. Guardian are combat leaders and protectors (this harkens back to the Jedi Generals leading the clone armies) so they need leadership and knowledge, they need to be able to think straight. I guess, seen in this light, the Guardian seems kind of a force sensitive tactictian or force sensitive bodyguard. So i think the archetype fits with them being able to strategize and rely on Intelligence. 

[Atomisk 66]

I also think INT is fine. Aside from being a flavorful fit, again the intellectual defensive General Obiwan makes sense to me, INT is one of the most important stats to a Jedi imo just because of how hard it is to fully upgrade your lightsaber and add additional mods. Guardians end up having the best sabers as a result outside of Shien who gets the artisan tree IIRC. Something to think about anyways.

[Kilcannon 177]

I agree generally it might be an issue for min maxers. But sometimes a player or two of mine and probably others have a concept and don't want intelligence or any stat restrictions for which are good or bad.

Maybe an easy fix for groups that have those concerns would be make it a general lightsaber teniqur and you choose any stat

And that form now uses that stat. When you take another form you take the talent again and either choose the same stat again for that form or another stat which dictates which stat is used for that form's talents.

Edited August 18, 2015 by Kilcannon

[deraforia 169]

I agree generally it might be an issue for min maxers.

 

I wish people would stop saying this. Why include an option for using an ability other than the normal one for a given skill, other than to decrease the need to spread your character thin on abilities to keep up with everything they're supposed to be good at? The other Specs make sense with their professions. Mystics are Advisors and Seers, Presence is important to them. Sentinels are Artisans and Shadows, Cunning is important to them. Seekers are Pathfinders and Hunters, Agility makes sense. Are they perfect, overpowered, never use any other ability ever combinations? No. The problem with Intellect for Guardians is that they have no reason to take that over Brawn otherwise, and plenty of reasons to make Brawn their highest.

 

If they had Willpower as their go to attack stat, I don't think it would make much difference, honestly, but at least there would be a good second option, and their signature lightsaber talents would suffer less. Is a Guardian who has a 4 in Willpower and a 3 in Brawn more of a min maxer than a Guardian where that's reversed?

 

I actually really like the idea of the intellectual Guardian. If they had given more support for it in skills and talents, there would be less noise about it. I do think we will see more options for this in Keeping the Peace, which I'm torn on. I would rather more support for Intellect had been there from the outset or that they had switched to Willpower in the Core.