Miranda, TLT and sheild regeneration

[skins1924 632]

Here is the situation. I'm attacking an enemy ship with Miranda and Twin Laser Turret. The enemy has one hull left. My first attack hits and destroys the ship. Can I perform the turrets 2nd attack with 2 dice to regenerate a shield?

[Vorpal Sword 14,685]

Probably not. It depends on whether the TLT is allowed to attack two different targets. But if there's no legal target, then no, you won't be able to make an attack and so you won't be able to regenerate a shield.

[Darth Emphatic 148]

Agreed

[Funkleton 2,510]

Exactly how TLT is going to work hasn't been clarified as yet, but the consensus seems to be that it will work similarly to the cluster missile which has 2 attacks nested into a single attack sequence - you only declare your target once and skip straight to Step 2 of the attack sequence on the second attack.

 

As the timing of Miranda's ability is going to happen at the Declare Target step, the opportunity to trigger her ability will have passed by the time you perform the second attack.

 

(see page 10 of the core rules for attack sequence and FAQ page 11 for info on the cluster missile)

[StephenEsven 632]

I would argue that you have to perform both attacks against the enemy ship before it is removed. The rules clearly state a ship is destroyed if the number of damage cards equals or exceeds the hull value. So you could easily perform the second attack, add another damage card and then remove the destroyed ship.

The Vader FAQ seems to support this, as you can perform an attack, use Vader and get damage equal or exceeding your hull, then still use gunner and then Vader again to add even further damage to the ship before removing it.

Based on this I would rule that you could use Miranda Doni's ability on the second attack before removing the destroyed ship. Unless FFG comes out with an FAQ ruling otherwise.

 

As for the timing of her ability, I don't agree it is in the Declare Target Step. You choose to use the ability when determining the number of attack dice. See Rulebook page 10, step 2. This can be on either the first or the second attack.

[Funkleton 2,510]

Derp!

Edited August 10, 2015 by Funkleton

[X Wing Nut 2,311]

Fels wrath ?

[Bilisknir 443]

The Vader FAQ seems to support this, as you can perform an attack, use Vader and get damage equal or exceeding your hull, then still use gunner and then Vader again to add even further damage to the ship before removing it.

Based on this I would rule that you could use Miranda Doni's ability on the second attack before removing the destroyed ship. Unless FFG comes out with an FAQ ruling otherwise.

Derp - no. If Vader kills the ship he is riding, you may gunner but may not Vader after the second attack.

 

Edited August 10, 2015 by Bilisknir

[Buhallin 4,563]

 

The Vader FAQ seems to support this, as you can perform an attack, use Vader and get damage equal or exceeding your hull, then still use gunner and then Vader again to add even further damage to the ship before removing it.

Based on this I would rule that you could use Miranda Doni's ability on the second attack before removing the destroyed ship. Unless FFG comes out with an FAQ ruling otherwise.

Derp - no. If Vader kills the ship he is riding, you may gunner but may not Vader after the second attack.

 

 

I believe he's saying that you can choose to use Gunner and Vader against a ship you destroyed, not when you yourself are destroyed.

 

Which...  maybe?  We honestly have no actual definition for why effects carry past ship destruction, or what effects do.  We know that if you Vader yourself to death when your Gunner triggers, you finish your gunner.  Does the dual-attack effect have to finish before removing a destroyed ship?  I have no idea.  And I'd honestly be willing to bet FFG won't either, until you ask them.

[Darth Emphatic 148]

That makes sense to me - use gunner on a different target after gunnering.

[StephenEsven 632]

In the latest FAQ you can use Vader twice with Gunner or cluster missiles even if you have 1 hull left. So it seems you always get to finish the active ships attacks before you are destroyed. The same should hold true for destroying enemy ships.

Edited August 11, 2015 by StephenEsven

[Forgottenlore 9,838]

In the latest FAQ you can use Vader twice with Gunner or cluster missiles even if you have 1 hull left. So it swensen you always get to finish the active ships attacks before you are destroyed. The same should hold true for destroying enemy ships.

 

No, the FAQ says you can use vader after each attack. It also says that you have to have at least 1 hull remaining to use vader (which we know is a sloppy way of saying you can't have more damage cards than hull). So if using him in the first attack kills you, when you finish the gunner attack and go to trigger vader again you can't because you already have too much damage.

 

You can use vader twice with gunner or cluster missiles. You cannot use vader if you are already destroyed.

 

(unless they have changed that in the last 3-4 days)

Edited August 11, 2015 by Forgottenlore

[Darth Emphatic 148]

You can gunner twice if Vader destroys your ship, but you cannot vader twice if the first vader destroys you.

[StephenEsven 632]

Please quote the latest FAQ where it says so.

[Bilisknir 443]

Please quote the latest FAQ where it says so.

 

Below from page 12 of the latest FAQ.

 

Darth Vader

A ship equipped with Darth Vader can use this ability if

it has at least 1 hull remaining.

 

If a ship equipped with Darth Vader can attack twice

in one round (such as a ship equipped with Gunner or

Cluster Missiles), it can use Darth Vader after the

first attack and after the second attack. If Darth Vader

destroys the ship to which he is equipped, it can still

perform its second attack. If Vader is used twice, it

must be in this order: Attack, Vader, Attack, Vader

Edited August 11, 2015 by Bilisknir

[dvorm 1,058]

You can use vader twice with gunner or cluster missiles.

And three times if you have both. No ship can equip Vader, gunner and cluster missiles. Not yet, anyway.

[StephenEsven 632]

The quoted text quite clearly states that you can still perform the 2nd attack. The Vader card text does not require you to have any hull remaining, only that you perform an attack. The 1st sentence of the FAQ is there to clarify that you can use Vader even if you have only 1 hull remaining, and he causes 2 damage. 

[Forgottenlore 9,838]

Yes, you can use vader if you have 1 hull remaining. Not if you have zero hull remaining. If you kill yourself on the first attack, when the second attack triggers you will no longer have 1 hull remaining and can't use vader.

Edited August 11, 2015 by Forgottenlore

[8at-eNTrOpY 6]

The quoted text quite clearly states that you can still perform the 2nd attack. The Vader card text does not require you to have any hull remaining, only that you perform an attack. The 1st sentence of the FAQ is there to clarify that you can use Vader even if you have only 1 hull remaining, and he causes 2 damage. 

 

You're misinterpreting the FAQ entry.

 

The first part of the FAQ is straightforward, "A ship equipped with Darth Vader can use this ability if

it has at least 1 hull remaining." Therefore, it follows that a ship equipped with Darth Vader cannot use this ability if it does not have at least 1 hull remaining.

 

Example 1: Omicron Group Pilot carrying Darth Vader is destroyed by a Rookie Pilot (and the Rebels have initiative). The OGP gets to make its attack due to Simultaneous Fire rule; however, it cannot use the Darth Vader ability after its attack because it does not have at least 1 hull remaining.

 

Example 2: Omicron Group Pilot carrying Darth Vader is reduced to 1 Hull by a Rookie Pilot (and the Rebels have initiative). The OGP gets to make its attack due to Simultaneous Fire rule. It can use the Darth Vader ability after its attack because it does have at least 1 hull remaining.

 

The second part of the FAQ clarifies that:

1. Vader can be used after each attack
2. If the ship carrying Vader is destroyed because of activation of Vader's ability, that it can still perform any multiple attacks allowed
3. The order in which multiple attacks and Vader are resolved.

The second part of the FAQ does not override the first part.

 

Example 3: OGP with at least 3 Hull, carrying Vader and Gunner, is attacking. It uses the Vader ability after its first attack and remains in a state where it has at least 1 Hull remaining. The first attack misses and OGP may now attack a second time due to Gunner. It may use the Vader ability after its second attack, because it has at least 1 Hull remaining.

 

Example 4: OGP with 1 or 2 Hull remaining, carrying Vader and Gunner, is attacking. It uses the Vader ability after its first attack, and is now assigned a number of damage cards exceeding its hull value (i.e. it no longer has at least 1 Hull remaining). The first attack misses and OGP may now attack a second time due to Gunner. It cannot use the Vader ability after its second attack, because it does not have at least 1 Hull remaining.

[StephenEsven 632]

But the Vader card does not require you to have 1 Hull remaining. It just requires the ship to not have been removed from the table. The first line of the FAQ could just as easily have been worded 'A ship equipped with Darth Vader can use this ability if it has less than 2 Hull remaining. The sentence is there to clarify that you can use Vader to inflict more damage to the ship than is has Hull remaining.

 

The Vader card has not been errataed to include a requirement for remaining hull. The card text only require you to perform an attack. And the FAQ clearly states that if you get 2 attacks you get to perform the 2nd attack even if the first attack destroys your ship. And that if you get 2 attacks you get to use Vader twice. They even tell you in what order the triggers happen.

 

And that is why I think the same should go for Miranda Doni with TLT. You get to perform both attacks before removing the destroyed ship. No matter if it is the attacker or defender that gets destroyed as a result of the first attack.

Edited August 11, 2015 by StephenEsven

[Vorpal Sword 14,685]

@StephenEsven: There's no errata, and it's one of those fun FAQ entries that arrived without precedent in the rules, but it absolutely does prevent you from using Vader if you already have damage >= hull.

Edited August 11, 2015 by Vorpal Sword

[Forgottenlore 9,838]

But the Vader card does not require you to have 1 Hull remaining. It just requires the ship to not have been removes from the table. The first line of the FAQ could just as easily have been worded 'A ship equipped with Darth Vader can use this ability if it has less than 2 Hull remaining.

They could have worded it that way if they wanted to change the meaning. The FAQ says you have to have 1 hull remaining to use vader. Period. Full stop. It doesn't say you can use him if you have less than 1 hull remaining, it doesn't say you can use him so long as you are still on the board, it says you have to have a hull point remaining in order to use him.

[Hylian100 300]

To get back on topic of Miranda, I'd say the key phrase is "perform this attack twice." Not like Gunner or IG-88, letting you perform another attack after missing. Therefore, much like cluster missiles, I'd argue it has to be against the same target. And since it's two attacks, each resolves separately. If after the first attack, the ship is destroyed, then there's no target for the second attack. 

Though then there's simultaneous fire, so if she's attacking someone at the same PS as her, she could surely make the second attack since they're not removed from play yet. Though now with that I think it may be a bit different to my original interpretation of the card.

[Felswrath69 683]

Dumb question. Wiith her ability and TLT would you spend and gain two shields each time you active it?

[Vorpal Sword 14,685]

Dumb question. Wiith her ability and TLT would you spend and gain two shields each time you active it?

Nope. The ability specifies "once per round".