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Tromsicle

Lack or deployment cards in twin shadows

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Buying 4 core sets is ridiculous, but I play a few games from FFG and hang out with a lot of people who play others. Realistically, if you want to compete, you need multiple cores for each of these games:

Imperial Assault

X Wing

Netrunner

Star Wars Armada

Star Wars LCG

Game of Thrones

Warhammer Conquest

I don't even know the rest, these are just games thatI know a large crowd who play them. All of those games, it is competitively all but a necessity to buy multiple core sets, sometimes 3+. I don't play Armada, but a buddy with a popular gaming blog was telling me after Wave 1 dropped and fleets expanded to 300 points, it became a must to have at least 2 $100 core sets. This is a game that didn't even have the self contained campaign that we have in the first box, and it's the same price.

I'm sure people will correct me. I don't play many games but I am close friends with many game crowds. I also will never buy 4 cores for this game, and I'm not saying you should. I definitely see the competitive value for owning 2, however.

Edited by Engine25

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X-Wing and Armada are good comparisons. I personally own 2 cores for both games. I supply my regular opponent too, so in addition to the ships, I have use for the extra dice/maneuver tools/damage decks so there's not too many unused components in the second box. And I have every option available for every ship.

X-wing comes with 2 TIE Fighter models. If the box came with only one Academy Pilot card we'd have a situation like we have here with IA. Could you believe that? It'd would be suuuch bollocks.

Edited by Hipsu

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I would have no problems with buying 2 core sets, if there were enough cards in there. Best case would be a second regular unit of anything that has only one regular unit. If they'd just include the cards, this would be perfect, too.

 

 

And I don't think, that the lack of cards is intentional. If I remember correctly, Descent had figures in differnet colors and matching cards (red and grey). For the campaign, one doesn't need more than that, so it was perfect.

I think, when they included skirmish mode in Imperial Assault, they just took this concept and didn't change it, because they didn't realize the inherent problem. (I give them "benefit of doubt").

 

And maybe development of Twin Shadows was already at a point of no return when they realized the problem.

 

 

The whole problem could be massively reduced by just making figure packs for all the generics, just like they do for the Stormtroopers. The announcement of a Royal Guard figure pack would shut most of the complaints down. Wave 4 includes the Alliance Smuggler and the Bantha. Why isn't there an anouncement for ANY imperial release? A figure pack with nothing but 4 Royal Guard figures (unchangend sculpt), 1 elite card, 3 regular cards and no further content would be perfect for all skirmish players. 

 

Or make a second box to every box release with all that stuff you could want extra for skirmish. E.g. Core Box Skirmish Upgrade Box Contents: 3 regular Royal Guard , 1 elite Royal Guard, 2 regular Officers, 1 elite Officer ....

 

 

Actually, I don't really care for the hole in my pocket ... it's just sad that many members of our local wargaming club would love to start playing skirmish competetivly, but don't bother buying the game at all for this matter ... 

Edited by DerBaer

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Buying 4 core sets is ridiculous, but I play a few games from FFG and hang out with a lot of people who play others. Realistically, if you want to compete, you need multiple cores for each of these games:

Imperial Assault

X Wing

Netrunner

Star Wars Armada

Star Wars LCG

Game of Thrones

Warhammer Conquest

I don't even know the rest, these are just games thatI know a large crowd who play them. All of those games, it is competitively all but a necessity to buy multiple core sets, sometimes 3+. I don't play Armada, but a buddy with a popular gaming blog was telling me after Wave 1 dropped and fleets expanded to 300 points, it became a must to have at least 2 $100 core sets. This is a game that didn't even have the self contained campaign that we have in the first box, and it's the same price.

I'm sure people will correct me. I don't play many games but I am close friends with many game crowds. I also will never buy 4 cores for this game, and I'm not saying you should. I definitely see the competitive value for owning 2, however.

Your buddy with regards to armada is just flat wrong. Buying 2 cores is pretty much a waste of money as there isn't the "rare" cards that would be wanted/needed from the core to be competitive. What a person will want multiples of are the wave 1 gladiator, possibly the wave 1 victory star destroyer if one plays squadrons (which isn't very competitive at this time), and the wave 1 nebulon b for the xi7 card.

Additionally, I can't see needing multiple cores to be competitive in xwing either.

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Buying 4 core sets is ridiculous, but I play a few games from FFG and hang out with a lot of people who play others. Realistically, if you want to compete, you need multiple cores for each of these games:

Imperial Assault

X Wing

Netrunner

Star Wars Armada

Star Wars LCG

Game of Thrones

Warhammer Conquest

I don't even know the rest, these are just games thatI know a large crowd who play them. All of those games, it is competitively all but a necessity to buy multiple core sets, sometimes 3+. I don't play Armada, but a buddy with a popular gaming blog was telling me after Wave 1 dropped and fleets expanded to 300 points, it became a must to have at least 2 $100 core sets. This is a game that didn't even have the self contained campaign that we have in the first box, and it's the same price.

I'm sure people will correct me. I don't play many games but I am close friends with many game crowds. I also will never buy 4 cores for this game, and I'm not saying you should. I definitely see the competitive value for owning 2, however.

Your buddy with regards to armada is just flat wrong. Buying 2 cores is pretty much a waste of money as there isn't the "rare" cards that would be wanted/needed from the core to be competitive. What a person will want multiples of are the wave 1 gladiator, possibly the wave 1 victory star destroyer if one plays squadrons (which isn't very competitive at this time), and the wave 1 nebulon b for the xi7 card.

Additionally, I can't see needing multiple cores to be competitive in xwing either.

 

 

I don't play Armada, so like I said, I could be wrong there.

 

X-wing is my primary game.  I have played for quite a while, and for a time, I was a primarily Empire player.  At least 2 Core Sets are definitely requisite, especially but not necessarily if you played Empire.  You need more than 3 of each die type.  For most of the game's life, you needed multiple X-wings and TIE Fighters, and I expect that to become necessary again whenever we get our new X-wing stuff with Episode 7 (could be as soon as September).  It also comes with TWO TIE fighters and a second set of dice.  There is absolutely content that is required in the TIE Fighter Expansion, but it makes much more sense to get a second core, get back up templates and cards, get MORE DICE (a 100% requisite for competition) and three ships, for less than the price of buying three more ships and the dice expansion.  It simply makes more sense to buy multiple core sets than the FIVE extra TIE Fighter expansions you need for a swarm because of what you get for your money, and then you get one each of X-wing and TIE Fighter standalone expansions.

 

The description I received of Armada was basically the same.  Again, I don't play Armada, but multiple core sets is a definite requirement for competitive X-wing.  

Edited by Engine25

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Buying 4 core sets is ridiculous, but I play a few games from FFG and hang out with a lot of people who play others. Realistically, if you want to compete, you need multiple cores for each of these games:

Imperial Assault

X Wing

Netrunner

Star Wars Armada

Star Wars LCG

Game of Thrones

Warhammer Conquest

I don't even know the rest, these are just games thatI know a large crowd who play them. All of those games, it is competitively all but a necessity to buy multiple core sets, sometimes 3+. I don't play Armada, but a buddy with a popular gaming blog was telling me after Wave 1 dropped and fleets expanded to 300 points, it became a must to have at least 2 $100 core sets. This is a game that didn't even have the self contained campaign that we have in the first box, and it's the same price.

I'm sure people will correct me. I don't play many games but I am close friends with many game crowds. I also will never buy 4 cores for this game, and I'm not saying you should. I definitely see the competitive value for owning 2, however.

Your buddy with regards to armada is just flat wrong. Buying 2 cores is pretty much a waste of money as there isn't the "rare" cards that would be wanted/needed from the core to be competitive. What a person will want multiples of are the wave 1 gladiator, possibly the wave 1 victory star destroyer if one plays squadrons (which isn't very competitive at this time), and the wave 1 nebulon b for the xi7 card.

Additionally, I can't see needing multiple cores to be competitive in xwing either.

I don't play Armada, so like I said, I could be wrong there.

X-wing is my primary game. I have played for quite a while, and for a time, I was a primarily Empire player. At least 2 Core Sets are definitely requisite, especially but not necessarily if you played Empire. You need more than 3 of each die type. For most of the game's life, you needed multiple X-wings and TIE Fighters, and I expect that to become necessary again whenever we get our new X-wing stuff with Episode 7 (could be as soon as September). It also comes with TWO TIE fighters and a second set of dice. There is absolutely content that is required in the TIE Fighter Expansion, but it makes much more sense to get a second core, get back up templates and cards, get MORE DICE (a 100% requisite for competition) and three ships, for less than the price of buying three more ships and the dice expansion. It simply makes more sense to buy multiple core sets than the FIVE extra TIE Fighter expansions you need for a swarm because of what you get for your money, and then you get one each of X-wing and TIE Fighter standalone expansions.

The description I received of Armada was basically the same. Again, I don't play Armada, but multiple core sets is a definite requirement for competitive X-wing.

I can't agree with you on xwing, sorry.

I agree that a second core does make things more convenient, but it isn't required to be competitive. Things like certain upgrade cards that are only contained in certain releases are what makes things required to be competitive. I don't know of anything, specifically that comes in the core that makes a 2nd core required to be competitive.

The extra dice isn't required either, it's just more convenient. Additionally, you can use the dice app in competition as opposed to dice. A second xwing core is a convenience and a money savings for models and dice, but it isn't required for competitive play.

Edited by Reiryc

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With regards to X-wing during the early waves (which is were we are with Imperial Assault) it was pretty much required to buy a second core set for the points mentioned by Engine25. But you would only have to buy the second core as it offered a cost savings vs. buying the ships individually. This is completely different then the situation we currently have with the box releases in Imperial Assault. As there is no option to purchase the majority of the figures as stand alone expansions, and the boxes don't even include enough cards to support the figures included. 

 

I'm fine with having to buy multiple copies of the box releases to get additional figures. I am not happy with having to buy additional boxes for cards to use with figures I already own.

 

What they are doing in the boxes is essentially like selling 2 separate Saboteur expansions, calling one the elite saboteurs and including only an elite deployment card. Then calling the other, Saboteurs and only including the regular deployment card. As they are the same figure this doesn't make any sense so they include both cards. However with the box releases the seem to think it's fine? 

Edited by Tromsicle

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I really don't see the major issue with cards. I was very outspoken about the practice of using chits for major characters and not including the minis, but the cards? Unless you are trying to enter competitions, which is a very small number of people buying the game, just print out more cards. They have them posted on their own site. Who cares about the tournament rules when playing casual skirmish at home? Just use homemade cards or proxy them. Not a big deal, IMO.

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I really don't see the major issue with cards. I was very outspoken about the practice of using chits for major characters and not including the minis, but the cards? Unless you are trying to enter competitions, which is a very small number of people buying the game, just print out more cards. They have them posted on their own site. Who cares about the tournament rules when playing casual skirmish at home? Just use homemade cards or proxy them. Not a big deal, IMO.

And for the people who enter competitions? I think you underestimate the importance of a strong competitive scene. It is a major reason x-wing is as popular as it is.

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Logistics aside, couldn't they just print up a small batch of cards in house, package it as a skirmish "booster pack" and see how it sells?

 

Obviously, in the absence of extra figure packs for core, this would be excellent. I hope FFG have some sense that this is something people would pay for. I would pay for it. Just double up the cards where they're short in the core set (Nexu, Trandos, RG, IO, E-Web, Probe Droids, Stormies?). £10 for FFG right here!

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Logistics aside, couldn't they just print up a small batch of cards in house, package it as a skirmish "booster pack" and see how it sells?

 

This.

 

They've said they won't sell "card only" expansions or X-Wing. I would assume it would be the same for IA. 

 

It's just not in their business model for these games to ship stuff without the plastic. 

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The annoying thing is that FFG tends to pride itself on non-random distribution of their games. There's no 'Mr. Briefcase', there's no 'chase' like there is in MTG and other games. 

 

I really, REALLY appreciate that. I appreciate that I can basically make any X-wing list by buying a few of each expansion. Sure there's cards unique to certain expansions, but they're accessible because they're only £10 each. The core set has unique cards, but you'll only ever need 1 copy of them. 

 

But unfortunately, with the card distribution of the core set Imperial Assault clearly goes against these principles. 

 

Now you could argue along the lines of "FFG cares more about Campaign; Skirmish is an afterthought, that they only want to support in a casual sense"

 

But given the success of X-Wing being largely underpinned by the competitive scene and the same likely to happen for Armada - why wouldn't FFG take the same approach with IA? 

 

Competitive scene sells packs! Also Waves 3 and 4 show that they do care about skirmish. 

 

Why then are we only allowed to run 1 regular heavy stormtrooper? Or 1 regular Nexu? etc etc. 

Edited by jonboyjon1990

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Logistics aside, couldn't they just print up a small batch of cards in house, package it as a skirmish "booster pack" and see how it sells?

 

This.

 

They've said they won't sell "card only" expansions or X-Wing. I would assume it would be the same for IA. 

 

It's just not in their business model for these games to ship stuff without the plastic. 

 

 

And that's completely fair, especially for x-wing or the command cards in IA. I understand this business model and think it's great. I actually think the command card distribution is fantastic in IA as they give you the legal limit of each card.

 

However with regards to the deployment cards I feel like they've made a mistake or oversight, in not including the required cards that go along with the figures included in the box. These proposed Skirmish booster packs would be an easy way to rectify this. 

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Or, alternate sculpt A&V packs, like the Stormtrooper pack, could include 1 extra regular card. Kinda like the Aces packs in X-wing often contain extra upgrade cards for ships you already own. Rebel Aces fixed the A-wing by including 3 Chardaan Refits; 1 for the A-wing included in the expansion, and 2 extra for A-wings you've bought previously. Brilliant, almost too convenient. :)

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I think we need to keep letting FFG how disappointing it is not to have enough cards to use models we get.  I have sent them a message stating that, but they told me they had no plans to change the content of Imperial Assault.  I don't know if this is referring to the core set or the game altogether.  Maybe at least they will change the tournament kits to include generic cards instead of elite cards.

 

I like troopers and not having enough heavy trooper cards rubs me the wrong way.  I have never been disappointed in a FFG product until I got the core set and twin shadows.

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I think we need to keep letting FFG how disappointing it is not to have enough cards to use models we get.  I have sent them a message stating that, but they told me they had no plans to change the content of Imperial Assault.  I don't know if this is referring to the core set or the game altogether.  Maybe at least they will change the tournament kits to include generic cards instead of elite cards.

 

I like troopers and not having enough heavy trooper cards rubs me the wrong way.  I have never been disappointed in a FFG product until I got the core set and twin shadows.

 

Very interesting. I have taken your advise and written an email to FFG as well.

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I really don't see the major issue with cards. I was very outspoken about the practice of using chits for major characters and not including the minis, but the cards? Unless you are trying to enter competitions, which is a very small number of people buying the game, just print out more cards. They have them posted on their own site. Who cares about the tournament rules when playing casual skirmish at home? Just use homemade cards or proxy them. Not a big deal, IMO.

And for the people who enter competitions? I think you underestimate the importance of a strong competitive scene. It is a major reason x-wing is as popular as it is.

 

Well, when I was complaining about putting a picture of boba fett on the box and then selling his figure separately, the answer I was fed time and again by people on these boards was that it made no sense to increase the cost of the box set when it is completely playable with the chits.  The goal was to increase the price accessibility of the game itself, in order to get more people playing it.  If that argument stands true for the figures, then it should be doubly true for cards that can be made on a photocopier at staples for pennies.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm of the opinion that I would rather pay more for a 'complete' box set then have to nickel and dime (or $70 in the case of another core) for every little piece to 'complete' the game, but I'm much more annoyed with the lack of minis than the lack of cards.  But correct me if I'm wrong, Descent, which IA was based upon, has no competitive scene at all, and still does very well with multiple expansions and new content regularly.  If you are trying to win competitions, that's going to cost money, and frankly the lengths that people will go to in order to stay competitive (dropping $300 for additional cores only to pull out one or two cards and throw the rest away) is baffling to me.  

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@tomkat36

 

Well, when I was complaining about putting a picture of boba fett on the box and then selling his figure separately, the answer I was fed time and again by people on these boards was that it made no sense to increase the cost of the box set when it is completely playable with the chits.  The goal was to increase the price accessibility of the game itself, in order to get more people playing it.  If that argument stands true for the figures, then it should be doubly true for cards that can be made on a photocopier at staples for pennies.

 

 

 

The cost component is a little thin.  It's obviously the money thing for the business, and all "uniques" are going to probably follow this pattern, per the Lieutenant Packs from Descent before this.  Tokens in the box, so you have a campaign proxy, buy the pack for Skirmish which will also come with more Skirmish content, and a little for campaign as well.
 

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm of the opinion that I would rather pay more for a 'complete' box set then have to nickel and dime (or $70 in the case of another core) for every little piece to 'complete' the game, but I'm much more annoyed with the lack of minis than the lack of cards.  But correct me if I'm wrong, Descent, which IA was based upon, has no competitive scene at all, and still does very well with multiple expansions and new content regularly.  If you are trying to win competitions, that's going to cost money, and frankly the lengths that people will go to in order to stay competitive (dropping $300 for additional cores only to pull out one or two cards and throw the rest away) is baffling to me.  

 

Again, in reference to Descent, see above on why the "characters" come separately.

 

While those of us that wouldn't mind paying extra for the complete box exist (somebody's buying those A&V packs), keeping the price point as low as possible is more about the "gateway game" idea to get new people into the product.  New people can mean non-gamers, gamers (in the videogame sense, but non-tabletop-gamers) or gamers into tabletop that just aren't new to this product line.

 

Obviously the competitive types are going to go all in on the product line to stay as current as possible for Skirmish options.

 

The real bottom line here, is that irrespective of how you feel about the deployment card options, there was going to be a hard ceiling on what they could put in the Core Set, model wise.  This is fine, as they can't make a $200 box (which is almost comes to at MSRP in some Canadian stores; I think it was $140 somewhere?!).

 

What isn't fine in practice, is that they don't make separate expansion packs for all these desirable deployment groups; Royal Guards, Imperial Officers in particular.  If they did, players would get their extra Elite/Regular card, as well as additional models and it would cut down on the griefing over needing to buy multiple Cores just to get a couple of cards.

 

I'm not totally in that camp personally, as my Skirmish jam is Stormtroopers, so I'm just patiently waiting for the alt-sculpt pack to come out.  The fact that I know it exists is enough to placate my desires to get more grey Stormies out, and winning the Elite Stormtrooper promo card at a Spring tournament lets me go double-reds if I want to, which I do in theory, but in practice it cuts into my list in a bad way.

 

I say this so everyone reading this understands my personal bias; I don't really have a practical need for the non-Stormtrooper Core bits at all, but I can see how ridiculous it is that my "Miami Weiss" list is nicely supplemented with a Stormtrooper pack while everyone dying to get their nut off on a 4x4 Royal Guard list is stuck with this problem.

 

I'll say this; not having extra Wampa models for sale seems like an oversight.  Don't get me wrong, they could shock us and announce a Wampa pack later like they did with Stormies, but sweet Cthulhu, that's got to be a popular model, regardless of its gameplay value in Skirmish.

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Well, when I was complaining about putting a picture of boba fett on the box and then selling his figure separately, the answer I was fed time and again by people on these boards was that it made no sense to increase the cost of the box set when it is completely playable with the chits.  The goal was to increase the price accessibility of the game itself, in order to get more people playing it.  If that argument stands true for the figures, then it should be doubly true for cards that can be made on a photocopier at staples for pennies.

A figure does increase the cost, so they made it available to buy separately.

A card shouldn't increase the cost any substantial amount. And they haven't even made it available to buy separately.

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 Well, when I was complaining about putting a picture of boba fett on the box and then selling his figure separately, the answer I was fed time and again by people on these boards was that it made no sense to increase the cost of the box set when it is completely playable with the chits.  The goal was to increase the price accessibility of the game itself, in order to get more people playing it.

 

And that argument turned out to hold no water once we learned that Fett's skirmish map uses tiles from Twin Shadows.

 

 

If that argument stands true for the figures, then it should be doubly true for cards that can be made on a photocopier at staples for pennies.

No they can't.  Only official FFG-produced components are tourament legal. What you propose is only a solution for the tiny portion of the community that really cares about skirmish, but not competitively.

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 Well, when I was complaining about putting a picture of boba fett on the box and then selling his figure separately, the answer I was fed time and again by people on these boards was that it made no sense to increase the cost of the box set when it is completely playable with the chits.  The goal was to increase the price accessibility of the game itself, in order to get more people playing it.

 

And that argument turned out to hold no water once we learned that Fett's skirmish map uses tiles from Twin Shadows.

 

 

If that argument stands true for the figures, then it should be doubly true for cards that can be made on a photocopier at staples for pennies.

No they can't.  Only official FFG-produced components are tourament legal. What you propose is only a solution for the tiny portion of the community that really cares about skirmish, but not competitively.

 I understand that photocopied cards aren't tournament legal, nor are the CARDBOARD CHITS the company makes as part of the game.  It is obviously a money grab.  They force you to buy more product in order to play tournaments.  The only point that I am trying to make is this:  There are a lot more people in this world who would want a miniature of Han Solo than a fourth grey royal guard card.  The whole packaging mechanism for this game is built around chiseling wallets, right from the start.  I honestly have no sympathy for anyone willing to pay $70+ for a single card in order to play in a tournament.  If you are willing to pay that much, you are only justifying their marketing technique.

Edited by tomkat364

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