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Tromsicle

Lack or deployment cards in twin shadows

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i just clued in that we will only be getting one grey and one elite deployment card for the raiders and heavy troopers in twin shadows. So this will require us to purchase twin shadows up to four times if 4 raiders or heavy troopers turns out to be a solid build option.

This is following the trend from the core and will obviously be the case for future expansions IE return to Hoth. I understand that FFG is running a business but the lack of deployment cards included in the box releases is slimy and a major turn off. Am I the only one that is incredibly frustrated by this business model?

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I'm not a fan of it. They should really be including deployment cards that allow you to run the models included in the expansion as either reds or grays. It's bad enough that I need to buy an expansion full of campaign crap that I'm probably never going to use but having to buy it twice just to be able to run the models that came with the first one as the same unit is pretty bad.

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As I said in the other topic, the entire distribution model for cards and figures is backwards.  You should get everything unique in the box, everything non-unique should be a token, and you should be able to supplement them with as many or as few figure packs of each generic unit as you want.

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I understand the frustration, but for me the real issue for me is the lack of generic expansion packs. If the core game had a bit of balance then it would allow you to have the deployment cards to run all the miniatures in the box as normal versions. I can totally understand that elite versions come with expansion packs.

Want to run two units of either elite or normal Trandoshan Hunters, then you need 2 core games! Even worse with Royal Guards that requires you to buy 4 core games if you want to run 4 normal royal guards.

Right now there is only one generic expansion pack in the pipeline and that is stormtrooper, which not many uses (hopefully this will change as the game progresses!).

So FFG get moving and release the generic expansion packs ;)
 

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I wish that they'd just make double side deployment cards. Put red on one side and gray on the other.

 

Would be ideal for Skirmish, but not so ideal for Campaign. No, the real solution is just include those few missing cards in the box and not be sleazy.

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Ideally for Skirmish all units would have an associated figure pack.  If I ever get into Skirmish I'd definitely want more Royal Guards.

 

Of course. But if/when they release a RG Villain pack it still leaves you with 1 group of figures that can't be used. Say you have 1 Core, so you have 2 groups but only 1 regular card. You need to buy 3 RG packs to get up to 4 regulars. You're left with 1 extra useless group of figures that can't be used, since it'd have to be an elite group and it doesn't fit into 40 points. (8+8+8+8+10 = 42 points)

 

If the Core had included another regular card, you'd only need to buy 2 Villain packs to make any RG list you want and wouldn't have any unused figures.

 

I think FFG underestimates the amount of sheer frustration this situation causes in their fans... argh

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I think the dumbest part is that you can't use the provided tokens in official skirmish tournaments. Want to use Boba Fett in your skirmish team? Fork up $10!

That's absolutely OK for me. At least the Rebel Troopers Pack has two deployment cards.

Edited by DerBaer

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I wish that they'd just make double side deployment cards. Put red on one side and gray on the other.

 

Would be ideal for Skirmish, but not so ideal for Campaign. No, the real solution is just include those few missing cards in the box and not be sleazy.

I'm not familiar with campaign. Is there a reason that having double sided cards would be a problem?

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I wish that they'd just make double side deployment cards. Put red on one side and gray on the other.

 

Would be ideal for Skirmish, but not so ideal for Campaign. No, the real solution is just include those few missing cards in the box and not be sleazy.

I'm not familiar with campaign. Is there a reason that having double sided cards would be a problem?

 

 

It makes it more difficult to conceal my open groups if they're double sided. 

 

That's all I can think of...

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Its clear that skirmish was just an after thought.

 

I think the dumbest part is that you can't use the provided tokens in official skirmish tournaments. Want to use Boba Fett in your skirmish team? Fork up $10!

I don't really have an issue with that. It keeps the cost of boxed expansions down for campaign players that don't care about having the model and let's skirmish players run Boba Fett for $10 instead of buying what would end up being a $60 expansion. I absolutely plan on buying Boba Fett and Dengar, I have no real interest in either Twin Suns or Return to Hoth. The way I see it is that I'm saving at least $100 by FFG including tokens for them instead of minis in the boxed expansions.

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Its clear that skirmish was just an after thought.

 

I think the dumbest part is that you can't use the provided tokens in official skirmish tournaments. Want to use Boba Fett in your skirmish team? Fork up $10!

I don't really have an issue with that. It keeps the cost of boxed expansions down for campaign players that don't care about having the model and let's skirmish players run Boba Fett for $10 instead of buying what would end up being a $60 expansion. I absolutely plan on buying Boba Fett and Dengar, I have no real interest in either Twin Suns or Return to Hoth. The way I see it is that I'm saving at least $100 by FFG including tokens for them instead of minis in the boxed expansions.

 

 

I think you missed Patrick's point. The dumb thing is that those tokens are not tournament legal when they should be. Kind of a separate issue that's not related to the topic of this thread.

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Except if they allow the tokens, it gets really, really murky if this is a miniatures game or not. The skirmish is entirely their way around Hasbro's license. Skirmish players may have to accept that the distribution model is more for the boardgame aspect than it is for the skirmish. 

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Except if they allow the tokens, it gets really, really murky if this is a miniatures game or not. The skirmish is entirely their way around Hasbro's license. Skirmish players may have to accept that the distribution model is more for the boardgame aspect than it is for the skirmish. 

This is very true. The main issue with the current way this game is produced is that it is based around card chasing... in a miniatures game. The game should have the cards provided to use the miniatures in whatever way that is acceptable, as in, if you have 2 sets of identical figures, the cards provided with them should allow for both forms to be used to their maximum ability.

Either FF should make elite units a DIFFERENT model than standard units or they should put both elite and standard unit cards that match the number of units provided. Having a system where the elite and standard units are identical, yet have limited cards for use in skirmish in a package makes NO sense in a MINIATURES game.

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The campaign has a rule that you can only use the deployment cards available in the game, if you buy another copy you cannot use any of the additional deployment cards in the campaign game.

 

That's FFG's excuse for the card limits, I just wish they put a number on the cards indicating how many can be used instead of limiting the cards available to skirmish players.

 

FFG should do the decent thing and use regular heavy troopers and sand people as the next alt art cards.

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The campaign has a rule that you can only use the deployment cards available in the game, if you buy another copy you cannot use any of the additional deployment cards in the campaign game.

 

That's lame. I hate when a game I don't play impacts a game that I do.

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The campaign has a rule that you can only use the deployment cards available in the game, if you buy another copy you cannot use any of the additional deployment cards in the campaign game.

 

That's lame. I hate when a game I don't play impacts a game that I do.

 

I would make the argument that you bought into a game system and product line that attempts to fulfill two roles, so by deciding that you only want to embrace one side of it because you are turned off by, to use your words "campaign crap".

 

Quick history lesson;

Before Imperial Assault there was Descent 2E, preceded by Descent, preceded by Doom.

 

Doom was great for playing one-offs, but had some design issues with regards to campaign play that could get a little weird.  Descent, then Descent 2E really honed in on the campaign experience, and now that we're in the 4th iteration of this game system, it feels like they've tightened it up even better.

 

So the problem becomes that apparently due to licensing issues with Hasbro, we can't have "Star Wars Descent" without some creative legal work, and that players would be clamouring for some kind of Organized Play scene.

 

If you've ever been into the Lord of the Rings LCG, you may have noticed that its OP support was late to the table and when it got there, was very short-lived.  Some games don't lend themselves to tournaments, especially co-ops.

 

So here we are, getting essentially the materials for 2 games in every product SKU; a super fun dungeon crawl RPG-lite game and a competitive tactical miniatures game.

 

There's no easy way to set this up so that both exclusive player bases are going to walk away happy.  Why would I care about having to sell a Boba Fett model separately for Skirmish people if I just want to jam away on Campaign?!  It goes both ways.

 

Also, once you understand IA's roots in Kevin Wilson's Doom design, you'll be able to realize that everything we're going through here with the Ally/Villain packs is also rooted in Descent 2E's Lieutenant pack system, and then later the Hero/Monster packs.

 

The only real difference is that Descent 2E gives you a scaling amount of monsters in a deployment card, based on the number of heroes, so there's really no need to buy multiples of anything, which would be true for IA as well, provided that you were just in it for Campaign.

 

I would say that it's because of Skirmish that we have this issue, not because of Campaign.

Edited by cleardave

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I wonder, how broken would the campaign be if the Open Groups were limited by the figures and not by the cards, and the only restriction would be max 2 elites like in the Skirmish? Or even max 1 if the designers feel that's more thematic.

 

My guess: No difference at all in any way.

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I wonder, how broken would the campaign be if the Open Groups were limited by the figures and not by the cards, and the only restriction would be max 2 elites like in the Skirmish? Or even max 1 if the designers feel that's more thematic.

 

My guess: No difference at all in any way.

You're probably not wrong.

 

Campaign is basically a 2-Player game in disguise.  the 2-5 really means Imperial +some others to play the Rebels.  It's a semi-cooperative asymmetrical game.  Anyone that's played coops can tell you that they can essentially be solitaire games that you can reasonably enjoy playing with your friends as well.

 

So with Campaign, if I'm the Imperial, my opponent(s) as the Rebel heroes determines what the balance is, ultimately.  Player skill disparity is a lot harder to quantify in this type of setting.  Even if all things were equal, me versus 4 people who are able to discuss and debate optimal actions could be more or less effective than myself as I only have my own actions to answer for, and I answer to nobody.

 

As I've done in the previous iterations of this system, I've found that playing Campaign without the desire to make it to "gamey" like you would in a Skirmish tournament yields a more enjoyable play experience.  I hadn't thought too hard on the subject of component limitations pertaining to the deployment cards until I got my hands on the promo cards from the tournament kits.

 

On the one hand, rules are rules, but on the other, is it really that unbalancing if I use my promo Elite Stormies in  the Campaign along side the include Elite Stormies?  The Imperial player is still paying the threat cost of the group to spawn it in the first place.  It's not like you can start with the extra Elite; that's all dictated by the Mission's setup instructions.  The only way this comes in to play is if you want to use the extra Elite/Regular deployment cards you've acquired as your "open group".

 

I feel like it doesn't really make an appreciable impact on the game experience, which, as I've noted, is not, in my opinion, to be treated like a competitive game on the same level as a tournament melee situation as presented in Skirmish.

 

There's a lot of flavour and story telling in the campaign, as you work your way to your end boss fight, and as apologists for "Lost" will tell us every chance they get; "It's all about the journey, man"

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So the problem becomes that apparently due to licensing issues with Hasbro, we can't have "Star Wars Descent" without some creative legal work, and that players would be clamouring for some kind of Organized Play scene.

 

It seems to me that if they had to go either all Skirmish or all "Star Wars Descent" that Skirmish would be the more successful product line of the two.

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I get that it is challenging to make two games with one SKU but that does not excuse their decision to only include one standard and one elite card for the generic units in their box releases. It is very simple to print a second of each card and limit the number of generics used in the campaign by an identifier on the card as others have mentioned.

It's disappointing because skirmish is a very fun competitive game, but decisions like this are really cutting the legs out from under it.

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So the problem becomes that apparently due to licensing issues with Hasbro, we can't have "Star Wars Descent" without some creative legal work, and that players would be clamouring for some kind of Organized Play scene.

 

It seems to me that if they had to go either all Skirmish or all "Star Wars Descent" that Skirmish would be the more successful product line of the two.

 

That's a tough call, since Descent 2E has been pretty successful for them, so buying in to "Star Wars Descent" becomes an easier investment choice, since it's mechanically well-established already.

 

We're trying to speculate on the success of a proven product line versus a new one.

 

Ultimately we got some kind of Brundlefly amalgamation of the two.

the-fly-brundlefly.jpg

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