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Enemy Without Expansion

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It's not the fact that it changes them, it's the thematics that goes with that.

 

The impregnation of a woman by a Genestealer (the sexual abuse) eventually leads to them becoming their slaves and servants (and this is due to telepathic control and links to the child, it's not even 100%, as it's not fleshed out - the mothers are still human). They've a maternal instinct for their inhuman children, amplified by psychic juju. When impregnated, they go about their lives, not even remembering the Genestealer's Kiss. They don't instantly turn into aliens or zombies. They're women that have, somehow, become pregnant, and carry on with their regular lives, and want to guard their babies.

 

These abused sexual victims, who are then killed for being abused could be seen as having far too many real life parallels. Add in the fact that, at no point (unlike how mutants and psykers are dealt with), are any individuals executing them seen as unfair.

 

Edit: Different sources have different degrees of control and change placed on the victims, yeah. But still, the thematics is difficult and extremely horrifying (burn the **** victims! Sexual purity above all!).

Edited by bluntpencil2001

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You're inserting a lot of details that just aren't there, buddy. If you like genestealer cults being a **** thing, have at it. They're presented more in the fiction a lot closer to those parasites that make rats not afraid of cats or the one that turns praying mantises into zombies, or that ant fungus.

 

For reference: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Genestealer_Cult

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Besides, it's not like this would actually have to be spelled out explicitly just to have Genestealer cults exist. Nobody really knows where Cherubim or Krieg Guardsmen come from either, for example.

I can't believe I'd never thought of that...

Ugh! That gives a whole new grimdark side to the swarms of Cherubim in blanche art and "traditional" 40k fluff. And to think that most of those are just the Ecclesiarchical equivalent of icing on a cake - mostly superfluous.

 

It isn't technically sexual abuse, but, really, it's forced impregnation of women - who should then be punished fatally for being the victims of such.

I never really thought about it that way. That's actually really horrible! Talk about "double peine"...

Maybe I should have thought about this before playing a female PC in a campaign focusing on the impending arrival of a tyranid hive fleet :)

Plus the fluff is unclear on whether or not you can impregnate a male (it would at least become faithful to the cult, if probably not bear a child), seeing as it was never actually described as physical **** as such (seeing as genestealers seem to lack external sexual organs or any kind of sexual dimorphism, I always assumed it was "****" as in violation of personal integrity).

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Plus the fluff is unclear on whether or not you can impregnate a male

 

As I recall, the fluff I'm familiar with is actually gender non-specific and the Genestealer doesn't impregnate the victim, so much as alters it's ability to procreate. The victim must still get pregnant (or impregnate someone) in the usual fashion for their species. The victim is unaware of the "Kiss" and is psychically influenced by it. Whoever the mother is (whether they were victim of a Kiss themselves or impregnated by a victim), they are also psychically influenced by the hybrid child growing within her.

 

Whether that has changed in more recent years, I wouldn't know.

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I don't think they've expanded upon the Genestealer Cult fluff in recent years, so all we have to go with is the old Rogue Trader-era stuff.  As far as I'm aware, it acts just the way Jolly P described it, which yes, is pretty throne-damned horrifying.

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Yeeeah ... I, too, think there seems to be some misconception about Genestealers here. I was not aware that parts of the community would actually interpret it, like, actual sex ...

 

I mean, sex is still involved. But not with the Genestealer.

 

"Within its maw is its reproductive apparatus, the ovipositor, through which the Genestealer implants its seed into a host. This takes the form of a thick, flexible proboscis that ends in a diamond-hard tip able to break through bone with relative ease. The throat of the Genestealer is thick with muscle allowing it to shoot the ovipositor from its mouth with incredible force and speed. [...]
 
The Genestealer responsible for the initial infection implants its egg into a Human, or indeed any other creature. The Genestealer's gaze has a hypnotic effect on its prey, allowing it to close in and implant an egg beneath the skin. In fact 'egg' is something of a misnomer; it actually acts more like a cancer, altering the host's genetic structure and in particular its reproductive system. The victim itself is not subject to any debilitating effects, actually increasing in strength and health as the infection takes root. When the victim mates, its offspring will be hybrids - part Human, part Genestealer. [...]  During this foul process the parent is shorn of any free will, reduced to the role of slave to its unborn child."
-- WD #266
 
 
I suppose one could argue that infected victims (of either gender) carrying the Genesealer seed might go out and forcefully procreate with non-infected Humans. But the majority of impregnation happens within the Genestealer Cult itself, where the offspring mate with each other, furthering their evolution back towards the purestrain level.
Edited by Lynata

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Again, thematically, it's horrific.

 

Yes, the mechanics aren't 100% ****. I know this. However, it's called a 'kiss' for a reason.

 

Thematically, it's the use of impregnation as a weapon. Thematically, it's about sexual purity. 

 

Zombies were mentioned. Literally, they are the living dead. However, thematically, in Romero's Dawn of the Dead, they're used to critique consumer culture.

 

Also, Genestealers have a lot of their imagery stolen wholesale from Alien, which is very Freudian in its artwork, and the actual impregnation of victims. Genestealers follow the same idea (the children taking on characteristics of both the host and the xenomorphs, after a '****' scene), with the details changed somewhat.

 

Thematically, Genestealers, what with their freaky reproductive focus, and use of sex, or their equivalent thereof (hence it being named a 'Kiss' in-universe), as a weapon of war, makes for very interesting horror (just like in Alien), but, unlike in Alien, it leads to some dark conclusions - burn the victims.

 

For a text to be about a certain idea, one doesn't need to directly reference it. Alien is very much about sex and gender, in many ways, but doesn't have much in the way of romance or sex. 

--

 

Re:the 'how Genestealers impregnate people' - it varies wildly depending on source. This suits the fluff, really, since there are various strains of Genestealers. Every writer will have their Genestealers kiss in a different way.

Edited by bluntpencil2001

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Alien impregnation as a manifestation of **** was a theme of the film Alien, not Genestealer cults.

 

Genestealers do not forcibly impregnate women, they alter the genetics of both men and women so that when those couples produce offspring they create hybrids and, at the same time, are driven to extremes to protect their hybrid children (hence Broodbrothers/Broodsisters). That's how Genestealer Cults work.

BYE

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Alien impregnation as a manifestation of **** was a theme of the film Alien, not Genestealer cults.

 

Genestealers do not forcibly impregnate women, they alter the genetics of both men and women so that when those couples produce offspring they create hybrids and, at the same time, are driven to extremes to protect their hybrid children (hence Broodbrothers/Broodsisters). That's how Genestealer Cults work.

BYE

Again, thematically, it represents this, as I said before. 

 

Just as the zombies in Dawn of the Dead are not actually 'Western consumers', they thematically represent those mindless consumers. Just as vampires are inherently sexual too, although the actual physical act of procreation is not needed to create new vampires.

 

The same goes for Genestealers. They're 'kissed' (romantic/sexual imagery), they then have children (product of horrific 'kiss'), born of this kiss. The parents of said children then fight to protect said children, and must be purged.

 

The fact that 40K is very blatantly taking inspiration from Alien should inform our positions, too.

 

Edit: Also, certain strains of Genestealers do infect the kissed individual with a parasite that grows into a Hybrid.

 

"Genestealer’s Kiss: A Genestealer possesses an ovipositor

within its maw that implants the alien’s genetic code into

its victims. This seeds the host’s body with a parasite that

will grow into a monstrous hybrid creature. Over a number

of generations, these hybrids will give birth to more hybrids

until eventually a new Genestealer is born. "

 

That's from the Vectori-Strain Genestealer entry in Ark of Lost Souls. So, yeah, impregnation is a thing, for some Genestealers at least. Even without this, though, my point still stands - creepy reproduction processes very much representing sexual assault as a weapon of war/threat of outsiders. Personally, I find it horrific (in a possibly good way) that the victims of the Genestealers become their slaves. That the fact that, as I see them, **** victims become slaves, and must be executed, draws some unwelcome real-life connotations and parallels, though. 

Edited by bluntpencil2001

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The host body will grow into an hybrid, not the seed. 

 

 

 

Just as the zombies in Dawn of the Dead are not actually 'Western consumers', they thematically represent those mindless consumers. Just as vampires are inherently sexual too, although the actual physical act of procreation is not needed to create new vampires.

 

That's giving intentions to people you can't read their minds. Nice if the creator of dawn of the dead told this, but don't take into account the same logic an argument apply to an other product. 

 

Genestealers, until proved otherwise by their ideators, are repugnant alien that kill and infiltrate society. Their is no philosophical sub-theme to them.

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Man bluntpencil, you really want this abandoned GW bit of fiction to be about violence against women.
 

Genestealers do not forcibly impregnate women,

 

The fact that this sentence was forced to be written is one more piece of evidence justifying my complete disdain for the people in this hobby. In a just world no sane person would look at an Innsmouth rip-off and say, "yeah, that's totally about ****."

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Back on topic...

Sorry if this was mentioned, but I didn't see it as I made my way through the thread, but are their homeworld options given for any Askellion Specific worlds given in the book?

Are there any new Elite Advances?

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Back on topic...

Sorry if this was mentioned, but I didn't see it as I made my way through the thread, but are their homeworld options given for any Askellion Specific worlds given in the book?

Are there any new Elite Advances?

 

No new Elite Advances, and yes to new homeworld options.

 

Vouxis Prime (Hive), Gregorn (Feral), Foraliss (Garden), Yanth (Death?), and I think a few others. I don't have my book on me right now though, sorry!

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I have to say, whilst the Alien-alien is arguably feminine, I never actually saw the impregnation (which happens via Facehuggers, not the Alien) as a sexual act. Probably because it doesn't have anything to do with the victim's sexual organs. To me, it was always a simple infestation. And it's the same with Genestealers.

 

I mean ... would you feel sexually violated when you've got a blotfly larvae under your skin?

 

Re:the 'how Genestealers impregnate people' - it varies wildly depending on source. This suits the fluff, really, since there are various strains of Genestealers. Every writer will have their Genestealers kiss in a different way.

 

This, on the other hand, seems to be a valid point. I was unaware that there were alternate descriptions of this in the licensed material, but it probably shouldn't be surprising given the nature of 40k background in general.

 

The host body will grow into an hybrid, not the seed. 

 

To be fair, as per that quote, it really is the seed. Just that this is how it works only in Ark of Lost Souls, not Genestealers as described in GW's own material. Though it could just depend on the strain, if one wanted to combine these conflicting descriptions.

Edited by Lynata

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I have to say, whilst the Alien-alien is arguably feminine, I never actually saw the impregnation (which happens via Facehuggers, not the Alien) as a sexual act. Probably because it doesn't have anything to do with the victim's sexual organs. To me, it was always a simple infestation. And it's the same with Genestealers.

 

I mean ... would you feel sexually violated when you've got a blotfly larvae under your skin?

 

What? Did you not watch Alien? I'm sorry, but the imagery is so overtly sexual, and intentionally so (H.R Giger is known  for this, and has made no secret of it). The Facehugger is very much a '****** dentata' type monster. The Alien itself is extremely phallic. We even have the writer, Dan O'Bannon, saying the following:

 

"One thing that people are all disturbed about is sex... I said 'That's how I'm going to attack the audience; I'm going to attack them sexually. And I'm not going to go after the women in the audience, I'm going to attack the men. I am going to put in every image I can think of to make the men in the audience cross their legs. Homosexual oral ****, birth. The thing lays its eggs down your throat, the whole number.'"

 

 

(Whilst there are other references to sexual imagery, the quote is at about 12:00. The documentary is, generally, very interesting.)

 

The imagery is very sexual. I'm surprised that you missed this. Genestealers are very much inspired by this (or, you know, stolen, just like the Adeptus Arbites are stolen from 2000 AD), and the fact that their weird reproductive habits are also inspired by this original source material is also of interest. I always thought that Genestealers made pretty decent use of the sexual horror implemented in Alien, whereas many other derivative works miss out on this important thought process behind it.

 

Yes, we all know that the Facehugger isn't literally having sex with Kane. A Genestealer's Kiss isn't an actual kiss. But the imagery is still very sexual, and, at least in Alien, is very much intentional on an artistic level. Genestealers, being a very derivative concept, might miss out on that, but, to me at least, it doesn't seem to, especially considering the language ('Kiss') and the focus on reproductive cycles.

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You're absolutely right about the movie Alien.

 

That you think these themes are or should be explored in a social game based on a setting that is a 15 year old boy's power **** fantasy is bizarre. (note for the censored: 'power-trip')

Edited by cps

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Man bluntpencil, you really want this abandoned GW bit of fiction to be about violence against women.

 

Genestealers do not forcibly impregnate women,

 

The fact that this sentence was forced to be written is one more piece of evidence justifying my complete disdain for the people in this hobby. In a just world no sane person would look at an Innsmouth rip-off and say, "yeah, that's totally about ****."

 

Um, well, no. 

 

For one, it's an Alien rip-off. And Alien, as demonstrated, makes very heavy use of sexual imagery and the idea of ****. Furthermore, I don't particularly want this to be one way or the other. I'm suggesting a possible reason for GW abandoning it (in spite of my love of Alien, and my soft-spot for the very derivative Genestealers) - they may have found such potentially sexual themes as not being what they wanted to be involved with. They've desexualised their Slaaneshi daemons, so it wouldn't surprise me if they decided to avoid reproductive body horror, too.

 

I'm making no value judgement on the decision - I'm suggesting a possible reason behind it, that GW might want to avoid anything even potentially sexual. From a sales perspective, that might make sense.

 

Personally don't know whether such ideas should or shouldn't be explored in the likes of Dark Heresy, and I can understand either position, as I said earlier. In a tabletop battlegame marketed to kids? No, probably not. In Dark Heresy, played by adults? Your mileage may vary, and I wouldn't judge you for it, although I'd leave it out of my own games.

 

However, let's not forget that GW, in the past at least (at around the time Genestealer Cults were a thing), did have very overtly sexual artwork. Anything related to Slaanesh, for example, in the 80s and 90s, had plenty of it. Whether or not they should have had such in a ' 15 year old's powertrip fantasy' is irrelevant to the fact that they did (and to a lesser extent, still do) have very sexual art and ideas in some places.

Edited by bluntpencil2001

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The imagery is very sexual. I'm surprised that you missed this.

 

Perhaps it depends on the person, then? I still consider it an infection rather than impregnation (from a human sexual PoV), but I guess if someone more sensible to the subject wanted to interpret it that way, I suppose I can see how it's about "homosexual oral ****".

 

I have to admit, I would find it delightfully funny if GW were ever to do away with this aspect of the Genestealers because they're afraid their predominantly male clientele would be too grossed out by the idea, even though GW Genestealers don't even put "it" inside someone's mouth. :D

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The imagery is very sexual. I'm surprised that you missed this.

 

Perhaps it depends on the person, then? I still consider it an infection rather than impregnation (from a human sexual PoV), but I guess if someone more sensible to the subject wanted to interpret it that way, I suppose I can see how it's about "homosexual oral ****".

 

I have to admit, I would find it delightfully funny if GW were ever to do away with this aspect of the Genestealers because they're afraid their predominantly male clientele would be too grossed out by the idea, even though GW Genestealers don't even put "it" inside someone's mouth. :D

 

 

Yeah, in Alien, the Facehugger is meant to look like toothed female genitalia, and the Alien itself is supposed to look phallic. The alien planet, the entrance to the Space Jockey room, it's all supposed to conjure up very sexual imagery. It's the whole point, really - I think it's brilliant.

 

I think the Genestealers could possibly be changed due to that, especially considering the 'de-sexing' of Slaanesh (especially considered to some of the 80s stuff). I'm hoping that they keep some of the fluff, in some shape or form, even if they feel some need to make it more marketable. They might keep it the same, though, as Genestealers don't have the visual imagery that Slaanesh, or even the Alien, has.

Edited by bluntpencil2001

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Both the Alien and the Facehuggers always appeared feminine to me (the latter's "mouth" certainly resembled a ******, but it had no teeth). The Alien's head could be said to be phallic in appearance, but its overall style, to me, seems to elicit feminine grace. Not to mention that the head of a hive is a "Queen", similar to ant colonies.

 

"I wanted a very feminine creature. The idea of associating danger and sexual desire, to have a creature that was at once desirable and lethal, and that was exciting. It was the eroticism in Giger’s work that had struck me immediately."
-- Ridley Scott
 
and
 
Giger told Cinefantastique that the Alien was, to him, "a hybrid [of male and female.]" Giger adds: "But Timothy Leary, in the preface he has written for Giger’s Alien, assumes that the creature is a woman."

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I agree entirely. It's weird, unusual sexual imagery all the time. It's neither truly male nor female at any one point. The Face Hugger looks female, but plays the role of the male, the monster itself is phallic at times, feminine at others.

 

Also of interest is that there are no males, aside from the Facehuggers, which could arguably be seen as male - as they need to 'impregnate' a different species.

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Perhaps part of how O'Bannon wanted to "attack the men", as your quote mentions, too. Turning the tables. :P

 

On the other hand, Scott was fascinated by the idea of both the protagonist as well as the monster being women, saying that it added a certain eroticism to the conflict.

 

It's interesting how so many different perspectives and interpretations can come together to mesh and create something incredibly cool.

Edited by Lynata

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Sorry to derail the conversation a bit but I didn't want to start a new threat on what is essentially the same topic.

I'm trying to decide whether to get this book now or later but I can actually find a list of content. Lots of things alluding to what is in there with lots of colourful descriptions about fighting xenos. But could someone please just help me out with a list of content? Even just chapter headings or something. Obviously something that doesn't break copywrite but surely we can talk about what's in it?

Thanks anyone who can do this!

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Introduction

Chapter 1: Xenos

Enemies Without Number

Standing Watch Against the Dark

Xenos in Askellon

The Faceless Trade

The Taxian Aftermath Wars

 

Chapter 2: To Scorn the Alien

Eradicating Xenos

New Home World: Death World

New Home World: Garden World

New Home World: Research Station

New Background: Heretek

New Background: Imperial Navy

New Background: Rogue Trader Fleet

New Role: Ace

New Reinforcements Characters

Xenos Armoury

  • Armoury Imperialis
  • Eldar Artistry
  • Orky Know-Whats
  • Kroot Hunting Gear
  • Xenos Weapons Cache D-216-98
  • Artefacts of the Lost Races
  • Jokaero Weapon Modifications

New Vehicles

Xenos Relics

To Hunt the Alien

Explications

The Radical Path

 

Chapter 3: The Promise of Xenocide

Askellon and the Xenos Menace

  • Forraliss
  • Dark Echo aka Research Station P3482XW
  • Gregorn
  • Vouxis Prime
  • Yanth

Xenos of the Webway

  • Craftworld Miandrothe
  • Keepers of Darkness-The Dark Eldar of Askellon
  • Children of the Laughing God

Running Xenos NPCs

  • Speaking With Aliens
  • The Many Masks of Xenos

Travelling in Space

Remnants of the Xenos

Generating Xenos Remnants

Xenos Investigations

  • Designing Xenos Adventures
  • Xenos Clues and Leads

 

Enjoy! :)

BYE

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I'm going from my memory, but it has new home worlds (including death and garden and possibly a third), backgrounds (heretek, navy, rogue trader fleet, and maybe one other), and one role (Ace). The home world options aren't great compared to previous offerings, because they don't grant characteristic aptitudes like Intelligence but rather skill-associated aptitudes like Knowledge. The Ace role gives a great selection of aptitudes for characters who otherwise might have been stuck going the desperado/assassin route for agility.

 

There's an armoury section, which includes Eldar, Ork, and Necron weaponry, as well as lots of new vehicles for Aces (and other operators) to enjoy. The bestiary section is itself fairly expansive, including numerous Eldar and Dark Eldar (including an archon, flesh shapers (and their handiwork) as well as some vehicles. Orks and Kroot make an appearance, as do two types of tyranid under slang names. There are gazetteers of several planets, and a section devoted to research. Though Necron weapons and relics have been found on various deserted worlds, there are no Necron themselves (that I recall seeing).

 

My initial impression is that it's a very handy addition, but as you can tell I haven't delved too deep into the details.

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