The 'militant' casual and being shamed into allowing your opponent to perform forgotten card abilities

[ParaGoomba Slayer 3,180]

So last night I was flying a swarm against dual IG's with advanced sensors. He reveals his dial, sets the template down in the front nubs of the ship for a 3 Segnor's, and before he moves the ship he attempts to declare a TL. I don't let him because he has already revealed a dial and measured the maneuver out.

He says, "Oh, so you want to play /that/ way? It's a casual tournament and I'm a new player".

After I can see how angry he is and how few people show up to the newly founded Thursday X Wing $5 tournament at this venue, I relent and allow him to do it, he angrily refuses to take the TL I allowed him to take, and then I again make it clear I'm fine with him doing the TL so he does it. When it comes time to go to the firing phase the ship he TL'ed isn't in arc of the IG he says something like, "See, it doesn't matter anyways".

This player was a beginner, but he isn't super new to the game and he's played dual IG's a few times before. By now he should know his triggers.

1.) Unless someone is super new, as in first handful of games, I'm of the opinion that it's okay to deny forgotten triggers because they should know better by now. Also, it helps their play because once someone is denied a forgotten ACD for example, they won't ever make the mistake again.

2.) I don't understand why someone would get so angry about it. When I'm denied the ability to perform forgotten triggers I see it as a fault in my memory and not the fault of my opponent for not being lenient.

[Morphun 14]

I always let people know beforehand, if I play casual, or "tournament style"

If it's casual, I let them take actions, while reminding them that they should remember, and I won't let them take it the next time.

If it's a newer player, I often remind them of actions, or triggers, to get a better and tougher game out of it

 

In a tournament setting, even a $5 one, I would expect players to remember themselves, or forfeit the action for the round,as I would myself.

[FatherTurin 1,818]

Casual games = I have no problem whatsoever. I will actually pre-empt the other player sometimes, stuff like "don't forget your action" or, if they have advanced sensors and are about to move, "are you going to perform an action first?" Just as friendly reminders. I will also remind them about upgrades they forgot about. "I know it looks like you missed, but don't forget Predator."

In a tournament that I paid money to enter? Nope.

MAYBE if it is a brand new player or someone clearly having issues with keeping the phases straight I will cut them some slack, like the above reminders once or twice. Maybe. And I certainly wouldn't let them try and push me around that way. That isn't casual. That's a Page 5, potentially WAAC hooligan who is trying to use "fly casual" as an excuse. He isn't a casual player, just an inexperienced one. Not always the same thing.

[Sithborg 11,644]

You seem to have issues with people not playing the same way you do. I think it might be less to do with a militant casual, and more to do with your attitude. 

 

This was an extremely pendantic timing issue. Something a newer player may still not have a handle on. Hell, enthusiasm can have this happen even with veteran players.

 

What you should've done, as the "veteran" player, is to explain the exact timing of Advanced Sensors so he can remember it next time. 

[Amraam01 154]

So last night I was flying a swarm against dual IG's with advanced sensors. He reveals his dial, sets the template down in the front nubs of the ship for a 3 Segnor's, and before he moves the ship he attempts to declare a TL. I don't let him because he has already revealed a dial and measured the maneuver out.

He says, "Oh, so you want to play /that/ way? It's a casual tournament and I'm a new player".

After I can see how angry he is and how few people show up to the newly founded Thursday X Wing $5 tournament at this venue, I relent and allow him to do it, he angrily refuses to take the TL I allowed him to take, and then I again make it clear I'm fine with him doing the TL so he does it. When it comes time to go to the firing phase the ship he TL'ed isn't in arc of the IG he says something like, "See, it doesn't matter anyways".

This player was a beginner, but he isn't super new to the game and he's played dual IG's a few times before. By now he should know his triggers.

1.) Unless someone is super new, as in first handful of games, I'm of the opinion that it's okay to deny forgotten triggers because they should know better by now. Also, it helps their play because once someone is denied a forgotten ACD for example, they won't ever make the mistake again.

2.) I don't understand why someone would get so angry about it. When I'm denied the ability to perform forgotten triggers I see it as a fault in my memory and not the fault of my opponent for not being lenient.

Does this situation really deserve a rant from you?  

[Zabuzauz 457]

Being so angry in response to someone enforcing the actual rules is the very opposite of casual play. To me this sounds like this person is not a casual player, as inexperienced as they claim to be.

 

I for one claim to be a casual player. I will usually allow for reconsideration of actions or whatever may be, but at the same time I hold myself to tournament style play.

 

Tournaments are different. Even in 'casual' tournaments there must be some level of order otherwise it'll be complete anarchy. (Hyperbole intended)

[VanorDM 11,599]

1.) Unless someone is super new, as in first handful of games, I'm of the opinion that it's okay to deny forgotten triggers because they should know better by now.

I agree more or less. I would also factor in how many games they've played that time, how late it is, how close the game is, and so on... I guess I don't have a hard and fast rule. But over all I agree if someone makes a mistake then I feel no need to let them correct it.

2.) I don't understand why someone would get so angry about it.

See here's my real issue. Anytime someone asks to be allowed to fix a mistake or missed opportunity, I'm less likely to allow them to do it. It is IMO kind of rude ask, because that puts a bit of obligation on the other player.

Now if they get angry about it then that's the end of it for me. I'd never let someone fix a missed opportunity if they get mad when I refuse. Because that person is no longer "flying casual" they're trying to cheat. They're effectively using emotional blackmail against you so they can break the rules and get away with it.

If someone is truly flying casual, they won't get upset when things don't go their way.

[Stone37 3,353]

There is "Casual" and then there is being a jerk.  Sounds like your opponent was being a jerk.  We're all there to win in a tournament and there is only so much "casual" you can allow.  Once a player has taken steps that would give a "take-backsies" a clear unfair advantage, it's time to put your foot down.  Be compassionate, sure.  "Wow man, that sucks that you forgot to do that... but you see how taking that action now is unfair to me right?"  

 

If a player forgets about FCS once or twice?  sure... but actions that dramatically change the outcome of other actions/moves.... Not this ship, sister!

 

But this is the rest of the problem that often is not thought about by the experienced player:
https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/184465-the-militant-casual-and-being-shamed-into-allowing-your-opponent-to-perform-forgotten-card-abilities/page-2#entry1725424

Edited August 8, 2015 by Stone37

[nekomatafuyu 1,080]

I'd treat his behaviour as being WAAC about claiming "Fly Casual", which is pretty much a complete corruption of what Fly Casual is meant to be about.

Not sure what the best way to deal with such a person is though - I'd be tempted to point out that if he's going to be a complete and utter **** about telling me to let him bend the rules, he can definitely take a running jump. I have no problems in general about letting people off for things like forgetting to announce an action before flipping the dial (hell, I do it myself), but asking to be allowed to correct you mistake should at least be done respectfully.

[Sithborg 11,644]

 

1.) Unless someone is super new, as in first handful of games, I'm of the opinion that it's okay to deny forgotten triggers because they should know better by now.

I agree more or less. I would also factor in how many games they've played that time, how late it is, how close the game is, and so on... I guess I don't have a hard and fast rule. But over all I agree if someone makes a mistake then I feel no need to let them correct it.

2.) I don't understand why someone would get so angry about it.

See here's my real issue. Anytime someone asks to be allowed to fix a mistake or missed opportunity, I'm less likely to allow them to do it. It is IMO kind of rude ask, because that puts a bit of obligation on the other player.

Now if they get angry about it then that's the end of it for me. I'd never let someone fix a missed opportunity if they get mad when I refuse. Because that person is no longer "flying casual" they're trying to cheat. They're effectively using emotional blackmail against you so they can break the rules and get away with it.

If someone is truly flying casual, they won't get upset when things don't go their way.

 

 

It really depends on the situation. This situation I don't see the issue allowing them to fix the mistake, because it is an extremely delicate timing, that not everyone will have a handle on. 

[Danath "ATLAS" 326]

I usually tell my opponent its up to them and their conscious if they want to follow the rules or not and then I left it go. 

 

There is only once I got really upset over this rule as a player not once, twice but three times forgot to use an ability and he went back to fix it in a casual game (no problem).

 

The problem was in combat he shot at one of my ships with Rebel Captive and then it was my turn to activate. I rolled attack dice and noticed his ship didn't receive the stress and I pointed out to him he didn't take the stress for it. He refused to take the stress and said the timing window was passed.

 

I said thanks for the game, you win and left. 

[FatherTurin 1,818]

Guys, this doesn't read like a rant to me at all. Maybe slight venting, but mostly gauging the community's response to the behavior he witnessed and his response to it.

As far as a pedantic timing issue, it isn't at all. Advanced sensors aren't mandatory to use every turn, and until a red maneuver was shown, it is perfectly acceptable to assume the player will use an action as normal (often really helpful with a brobot list).

In a casual game, as soon as I saw a red maneuver I would remind him, but in my opinion once you pay money to play in a tournament, even a low cost "casual" one, you acknowledge your intention to, as Obi Wan said, "take your first step into a larger world."

[Hobojebus 11,341]

 

 

1.) Unless someone is super new, as in first handful of games, I'm of the opinion that it's okay to deny forgotten triggers because they should know better by now.

I agree more or less. I would also factor in how many games they've played that time, how late it is, how close the game is, and so on... I guess I don't have a hard and fast rule. But over all I agree if someone makes a mistake then I feel no need to let them correct it.

2.) I don't understand why someone would get so angry about it.

See here's my real issue. Anytime someone asks to be allowed to fix a mistake or missed opportunity, I'm less likely to allow them to do it. It is IMO kind of rude ask, because that puts a bit of obligation on the other player.

Now if they get angry about it then that's the end of it for me. I'd never let someone fix a missed opportunity if they get mad when I refuse. Because that person is no longer "flying casual" they're trying to cheat. They're effectively using emotional blackmail against you so they can break the rules and get away with it.

If someone is truly flying casual, they won't get upset when things don't go their way.

 

 

It really depends on the situation. This situation I don't see the issue allowing them to fix the mistake, because it is an extremely delicate timing, that not everyone will have a handle on. 

 

Agreed this was a fairly new player just explaining when he's meant to declare and let it go the first time, if he makes the same mistake then that's his fault.

 

Also Militant brings to mind bombing abortion clinics and beheading people i don't think it fit's at all with what your describing.

[Sithborg 11,644]

Guys, this doesn't read like a rant to me at all. Maybe slight venting, but mostly gauging the community's response to the behavior he witnessed and his response to it.

As far as a pedantic timing issue, it isn't at all. Advanced sensors aren't mandatory to use every turn, and until a red maneuver was shown, it is perfectly acceptable to assume the player will use an action as normal (often really helpful with a brobot list).

 

If this was the first such thread, sure. But it isn't. 

 

It is a delicate timing issue that enthusiasm can interrupt. As long as he hasn't started the move yet, I fail to see the issue. 

 

 

Also Militant brings to mind bombing abortion clinics and beheading people i don't think it fit's at all with what your describing.

 

 

Militant works well because it directly contradicts the "casual". 

[Tilaso 36]

Punish mistakes; they will learn better.

[Hobojebus 11,341]

Unless there was a physical threat involved he wasn't being militant he was being strident.

[VanorDM 11,599]

This situation I don't see the issue allowing them to fix the mistake, because it is an extremely delicate timing, that not everyone will have a handle on.

I agree. The given example is something I'd most likely let someone fix. Because as you point out it is a delicate timing issue. Plus it's not like the player would gain a huge advantage by taking the TL after putting out the template. I mean I know where my ship will end up with or without the template so I wouldn't see that as gaining a huge advantage.

But the putting the example aside, this is a case of someone trying to use Fly Casual as an excuse for sloppy play and as I said emotional blackmail.

[jesper_h 679]

Generally speaking, when playing against somebody I've not played before, I will happily remind my opponent of their card abilities and allow them to correct a mistake once. One good example is Advanced Sensors (has to be declared before revealing the dial). If they forget a second time, that's tough. Mistakes are learned from.

Edited August 7, 2015 by floof

[ParaGoomba Slayer 3,180]

1.) Unless someone is super new, as in first handful of games, I'm of the opinion that it's okay to deny forgotten triggers because they should know better by now.

I agree more or less. I would also factor in how many games they've played that time, how late it is, how close the game is, and so on... I guess I don't have a hard and fast rule. But over all I agree if someone makes a mistake then I feel no need to let them correct it.

2.) I don't understand why someone would get so angry about it.

See here's my real issue. Anytime someone asks to be allowed to fix a mistake or missed opportunity, I'm less likely to allow them to do it. It is IMO kind of rude ask, because that puts a bit of obligation on the other player.

Now if they get angry about it then that's the end of it for me. I'd never let someone fix a missed opportunity if they get mad when I refuse. Because that person is no longer "flying casual" they're trying to cheat. They're effectively using emotional blackmail against you so they can break the rules and get away with it.

If someone is truly flying casual, they won't get upset when things don't go their way.

 

It really depends on the situation. This situation I don't see the issue allowing them to fix the mistake, because it is an extremely delicate timing, that not everyone will have a handle on.

Agreed this was a fairly new player just explaining when he's meant to declare and let it go the first time, if he makes the same mistake then that's his fault.

 

Also Militant brings to mind bombing abortion clinics and beheading people i don't think it fit's at all with what your describing.

Hence putting militant in scare quotes.

This wasn't meant as a rant either.

I myself forget things, and if my opponent doesn't allow me to perform the missed trigger it's my bad.

One time I was at a store championship with a swarm that had multiple different pilot skills. I maneuvered my ships in such a way that they would all do 1 hard turns in formation, but would require marking ships because the pilot skills required that they move in a certain order, not the order of what would be most convenient. When playing this list I would often explain to my opponent that they wouldn't bump anyways and it would be easier to move them in the most convenient way as opposed to the PS order way, and they would pretty much always let me move them that way. But at the tournament my opponent did not let me move them like that and smiled, and I understood because he probably wanted my swarm to have less time and my formation to get 'human errored' into bumping eventually by having to mark ships that could potentially be marked inaccurately. And I had a great competitive razor's edge game with him and I wasn't angry at all.

[zerotc 1,011]

First, I find it a bit funny that a player who's flown dual AS IG's - a very competitive, and difficult list - multiple times is complaining and giving the "I'm new, this is casual" excuse.

 

If he had only revealed the dial then did AS actions, that's perfectly acceptable and happens all the time despite not technically being legal. But the fact that he measured the maneuver out obviously biases his decision (i.e. TL vs Focus based on whether the IG is within an arc) and shouldn't have been allowed.

 

Also, sometimes it's hard to call people out and speak the truth. I've been denied picking up a focus token I had just placed (wanted to boost instead). It was unsettling at first and seemed like a harsh lesson at the time but it's made me a better player and I'm thankful they took the risk of being an arse.

 

Which is why I'm glad when I hear players say "Whoops I made a mistake... Buuut I'll live with the results because this is practice for tournaments anyway." That kind of mindset is exactly what will make you a better player - not ignored carelessness. We make mistakes and learn from them in casual games so we don't make them in tournaments when they actually count.

Edited August 7, 2015 by zerotc

[Viktus106 1,045]

When me and my group "fly casual" we openly tell the other, even veterans of the game that they have forgotten something or done something out of sequence, we let them correct the mistake but then remind them that, should they make the same mistake again, they will not be reminded and it will be ruled just like a tournament event.

 

When in a tournament environment, I expect to be punished for making mistakes. If I forget to place a target lock via the FCS rule and roll nothing but blanks, tough. I wouldn't expect my opponent to let me take it back and I wouldn't even ask. It isn't fair on them or respectful of the event in general.

 

This goes doubly for when someone reveals a red move and they are stressed, don't make me feel bad for flying you off the board, don't guilt me and make me "that guy" even if it was one of your two Aggressors, that's the game. It happens, be a grown up and deal with it.

[Zabuzauz 457]

But the fact that he measured the maneuver out obviously biases his decision (i.e. TL vs Focus based on whether the IG is within an arc) and shouldn't have been allowed.

 

This is so true. He can see, "oh this is where I'll end up, I don't know about that," check for a target lock, he's out of range, decide to boost to further his move or whatever. I'm not implying that this was his intent, but that is the reason AS must be used before revealing a maneuver or at the very least before putting down templates.

[MrMaggles 117]

I personally remind someone, like if I have a phantom I remind them before they plan the moves that he still has a decloak action before movement etc...

I just feel like if I do it then my opponent would do me the same courtesy if I forgot a card or misinterpreted a rule etc...

[Stone37 3,353]

I personally remind someone, like if I have a phantom I remind them before they plan the moves that he still has a decloak action before movement etc...

I just feel like if I do it then my opponent would do me the same courtesy if I forgot a card or misinterpreted a rule etc...

 

I sometimes do this as well, early on in a game.  But most of the time it is not my responsibility.  I need to keep up with my own list, actions, and developing strategies.  Both players should be enjoying the game and playing fairly.

[Vorpal Sword 14,685]

The situation described is completely innocuous. It's an easy trigger to miss, especially if the game is moving quickly, and (critically) the game state hadn't changed since the trigger. The OP was, if not out of line in a technical sense, enforcing the rules for the sake of rules and not because there was anything depending on the judgment.

There's a time to think about and work with rules in an exacting, literal, and algorithmic way--and that time is away from the table, when everyone has lots of time and lots of reference materials available. That time is definitely not in the middle of the activation phase at a tournament, and especially not at a casual tournament.

So I would have been annoyed, too. I wouldn't have lost my temper over it (or at least I hope not), but I wouldn't be interested in playing another game with the OP, ever.